Born Again?

[sara888]

I only believe in the first one. Faith.

Where have I preached irresistilbe grace? And where do I preach lawlessness. You are being judgemental.

All you are doing is attacking the hypocrites of the Protestant faith. I would do the same if I attacked hypocrites of the roman catholic faith. (I am sure they exist)

You are accusing me of preaching sin, without any proof. No where do I condone sinning . You are just taking the easy way out and pointing fingers, ignoring what I said.

That is ok.

** First of all tell me what your denomination is or non-denominational sect, then we can discuss the tenets of your doctrine.**
**
I am not doing no such thing, there are hypocrits in all denominations. but the Catholics still teach and profess Faith and commandment keeping, as do most mainstream traditional Protestant groups…

Its this new age groups . OSAS, Born Again, etc,etc… that teach a different doctrine than what Christ requires from a CHristian which is we are judged on our Faith that includes commandment keeping which are essential to ones Faith .**

Jan

 

[MariaG]

** First of all tell me what your denomination is or non-denominational sect, then we can discuss the tenets of your doctrine.**

I am not doing no such thing, there are hypocrits in all denominations. but the Catholics still teach and profess Faith and commandment keeping, as do most mainstream traditional Protestant groups…

Its this new age groups . OSAS, Born Again, etc,etc… that teach a different doctrine than what Christ requires from a CHristian which is we are judged on our Faith that includes commandment keeping which are essential to ones Faith .

Jan

You define those Protestant Christians who define themselves as born again as New Age?

New Age in most people’s definition I know implies that one is not a Christian.

From Dictionary.com

New Age

1.of or pertaining to a movement espousing a broad range of philosophies and practices traditionally viewed as occult, metaphysical, or paranormal. 2.of or pertaining to an unintrusive style of music using both acoustic and electronic instruments and drawing on classical music, jazz, and rock. 3.the New Age movement.

New Age
adj.

1. 
   *]Of or relating to a complex of spiritual and consciousness-raising movements originating in the 1980s and covering a range of themes from a belief in spiritualism and reincarnation to advocacy of holistic approaches to health and ecology.
   *]Of, relating to, or resembling New Age music.
   So are you saying that “born again” or OSAS etc. ( etc. covers?) are not Christians?

 

[VWcrazy]

It looks as if no one answered the original poster’s question.

 

[MariaG]

There is none; you should have just asked your priest; it would have saved you all the time you’ve spent looking for it.

Hi,
Is this what you are looking for?

John 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”

vs 4–How can a man be born when he is old?" asked Nicodemus. “Surely he can not enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!”

vs5-- Jesus answered,"I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the spirit. vs6–Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to the spirit. vs 7–You should not be surprised at my saying, You must be born again.
Please read the rest on your own John 3:1-21.

I understand the CC teaches this to refer to baby baptism. I understand but it could also mean actual birth and amniotic fluid. I personally dont know. Either way Jesus wants us to be baptized by water. I personally think baptism is done after a profession of faith. But hey, I was baptized as a baby and so were my kids. All three of us will get baptized again so we can make a public profession(to our fellow brothers and sister in Christ) that we believe and follow Christ.

These passages also clearly state we need to be born again of the Spirit—that means believing in Christ. Obviously you are not a baby when you do this. A baby cant make that decision yet.

Hope that helps.

John 3.5 can be read as either​

• born again
  or
• born from above,
  Nicodemus takes the operative word - anōthen - in one sense, while Jesus meant it in another, somewhat different one. Unfortunately, it is not possible to reproduce the play upon words in English.

It is because Jesus is “from above” (see verses 2, 13) that He can speak as He does.

This sort of misunderstanding is a feature of St. John’s gospel - it is a means of showing that Jesus cannot be recognised for Who & What He truly is, unless His Father enlightens those who come to Him. ##

It looks as if no one answered the original poster’s question.

All of these answers were in the first 25 posts.

While a person may disagree with the interpretation that is put on scripture, the question was answered. The question tries to force a one size fits all literal word for word answer to a group of Protestants of whom few here are of that bent.

Of course you could disagree that there was an attempt to answer the OP but the question was somewhat of a set up for anyone who does not believe that there is an exact “magic formula” of words in scripture rather an intent that is summed up in the “commonly used” words of “born again” Christians.

Respectfully,
Maria

 

[sara888]

You define those Protestant Christians who define themselves as born again as New Age?

New Age in most people’s definition I know implies that one is not a Christian.

From Dictionary.com

New Age

1.of or pertaining to a movement espousing a broad range of philosophies and practices traditionally viewed as occult, metaphysical, or paranormal. 2.of or pertaining to an unintrusive style of music using both acoustic and electronic instruments and drawing on classical music, jazz, and rock. 3.the New Age movement.

New Age
adj.

1. 
   *]Of or relating to a complex of spiritual and consciousness-raising movements originating in the 1980s and covering a range of themes from a belief in spiritualism and reincarnation to advocacy of holistic approaches to health and ecology.
   *]Of, relating to, or resembling New Age music.
   So are you saying that “born again” or OSAS etc. ( etc. covers?) are not Christians?

1. 
   **Marie, once again you are de-railing the point… which is. both sects profess and teach ASSURED SALVATION .
   
   .When I say new sects or groups I am referring to the ones that surfaced after the 1600.s apporx. that came along with man-made doctrine like the OSAS and Born Again.
   
   Both sects preach lawlessness and irresistible grace, even if they dont omit it.!!! I am not claiming they are not Christian, however both sect’s refute or dismiss commandment keeping are part of salvation and judgement. (justification/salvation). which is not biblical or what Christ requires true followers with faith.
   
   Jan**

 

[rr1213]

…For PRACTICAL purposes, there is little difference, IF one is born again, one will not go out and sin. One was never born again to begin with or one is “back slidden”. But there are great theological differences between born again and OSAS. As pointed out previously, irressistible grace is not part of the “born again” theology. …
God Bless,
Maria

To follow up on this quote, many evangelicals who profess the need to be born again would also confess a belief in free will. After all, you are making a choice to accept Christ as your personal savior. You don’t have to make that choice. In contrast, irresistible grace is a concept more at home with those who believe in the elect and predestination.

 

[MariaG]

Marie, once again you are de-railing the point… which is. both sects profess and teach ASSURED SALVATION .

.When I say new sects or groups I am referring to the ones that surfaced after the 1600.s apporx. that came along with man-made doctrine like the OSAS and Born Again.

Both sects preach lawlessness and irresistible grace, even if they dont omit it.!!! I am not claiming they are not Christian, however both sect’s refute or dismiss commandment keeping are part of salvation and judgement. (justification/salvation). which is not biblical or what Christ requires true followers with faith.

Jan

Hi Jan,

I am derailing a thread?

No, I am just stating that you are wrong. This board is for discussion. I disagree with you and asked you to clarify a post.

Originally, you linked together “new age”, born again and OSAS. If you did not mean to use the words new age along with OSAS and born againers, you should have not used it. It is a significant point when most would consider new agers to not be Christian, but most do consider OSAS and born again christians to be Christian.

Further, there is a difference between assured salvation and the teaching of Once saved always saved. Assured salvation means one can know with confidence whether or not one is in a state of Grace, but one can fall from that state of Grace and end up in hell. In other words one can be saved and be destined for heaven, but then lose their salvation and go to hell.

Once Saved Always Saved, has a varying range of beliefs, but all include that once one is in a state of saving Grace one can never lose it. In other words if one is truly destined for heaven, one can never lose their salvation and go to hell. This is quite different than the above.

Both do not teach lawlessness and irresistible grace.

Among the OSAS there is a wide range of beliefs that may include the extreme “lawlessness” but most would simply believe that someone who was lawless, was never saved to begin with. You would be correct that irresistible Grace would be a component of OSAS. There is no free will.

As for the “Born Again” I am quite familar with them. Many of them in fact teach a “Holiness” doctrine, taught by John Wesley originally. It is just the opposite of lawlessness and in fact tells followers that one must be Holy if one is a follower of Christ. Irresistible Grace is NOT a component of many who define themselves with the “born again” Christian title. Free will is always a part of the picture which goes hand in hand with the ability to fall from Grace.

Certainly one of the problems with many Protestant branches is the lack of cohesive doctrine even among those who claim similar titles of Born again or OSAS which means one can run into a person who would self identify as “born again” who would also qualify as a OSAS, irressitible grace, no free will etc, but you also will run into MANY who self-identify themselves as born again who violently disagree with irresistible grace and OSAS.

While you are correct that they would dismiss that one needs to follow the commandments to be saved if asked like that because one is saved by “faith alone”, you will also find that they in fact preach that one will follow those commandments naturally for the love of God.

Just flip it and ask if someone will commit murder if they are born again, they will say no.

If you ask if someone will commit adultery if they are saved, they again will say no.

One can go down the list of the commandments, and a OSAS person or a born againer will affirm that those who are saved will not commit those sins.

In general, the born again would say that one could commit those sins and fall from grace until one repented and the OSAS would generally say that a saved person would never commit those sins in the first place.

And again, there are those who would claim the title of Once saved always saved who teach that once one is saved, one can do anything and still go to heaven, teach a complete Lawlessness, but this, is in fact a minority of those who believe in OSAS. As I said previously, most would simply say that one who committed murder or adultery was never saved to begin with.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

To follow up on this quote, many evangelicals who profess the need to be born again would also confess a belief in free will. After all, you are making a choice to accept Christ as your personal savior. You don’t have to make that choice. In contrast, irresistible grace is a concept more at home with those who believe in the elect and predestination.

Exactly.

Irresistible grace means no free will and gets into the elect and predestination as you say. Once one is one of the elect, one can never be “unelected”. This is usually a hallmark of the OSAS.

While the “born again” crowd usually believes that one always has free will and while we can be assured of our Salvation, know if we are walking in a state of Grace, one can also lose it.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[lak611]

Maria, you are correct! :dancing:

 

[Syele]

Well Said Maria.

Jan, you seem to be mixing up three seperate and very different belief systems. New Age
which Maria explained isn’t even Christian, Calvinism (OSAS, irresistable Grace), and Arminianism (which prompted Calvinists at the Snyod of Dort to Invent TULIP).

As far as I can tell, you are accusing all protestants (and new agers?) of Antinomianism, which I think is quite extreme. Kind of like if I said Catholics Worship Mary… Yeah there might be one or two totally misguided Catholics out there but it’s not the norm… Same here - if you dig for a long time, you may be able to find a few protestants who really do believe such a premise but most of us take the Bible literally, “What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!” Romans 6:15

 

[lak611]

Well Said Maria.

“What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!” Romans 6:15

Or, as in the KJV, “God forbid.”

 

[MariaG]

Its this new age groups . OSAS, Born Again, etc,etc… that teach a different doctrine than what Christ requires from a CHristian which is we are judged on our Faith that includes commandment keeping which are essential to ones Faith .

Jan

.When I say new sects or groups I am referring to the ones that surfaced after the 1600.s apporx. that came along with man-made doctrine like the OSAS and Born Again.

And, I just wanted to point out that new sect or group was not used originally, but new age.

New sect or group being more appropriate to apply to the “relatively” new Christian denominations that have sprung up since the reformation. Although sect can carry negative connotations whereas denomination has no negative connotations.

New Age being non-Christian groups that have been created or reinvented from pagan influences.

 

[sara888]

Hi Jan,

I am derailing a thread?

No, I am just stating that you are wrong. This board is for discussion. I disagree with you and asked you to clarify a post.

Originally, you linked together “new age”, born again and OSAS. If you did not mean to use the words new age along with OSAS and born againers, you should have not used it. It is a significant point when most would consider new agers to not be Christian, but most do consider OSAS and born again christians to be Christian.

Further, there is a difference between assured salvation and the teaching of Once saved always saved. Assured salvation means one can know with confidence whether or not one is in a state of Grace, but one can fall from that state of Grace and end up in hell. In other words one can be saved and be destined for heaven, but then lose their salvation and go to hell.

Once Saved Always Saved, has a varying range of beliefs, but all include that once one is in a state of saving Grace one can never lose it. In other words if one is truly destined for heaven, one can never lose their salvation and go to hell. This is quite different than the above.

Both do not teach lawlessness and irresistible grace.

Among the OSAS there is a wide range of beliefs that may include the extreme “lawlessness” but most would simply believe that someone who was lawless, was never saved to begin with. You would be correct that irresistible Grace would be a component of OSAS. There is no free will.

As for the “Born Again” I am quite familar with them. Many of them in fact teach a “Holiness” doctrine, taught by John Wesley originally. It is just the opposite of lawlessness and in fact tells followers that one must be Holy if one is a follower of Christ. Irresistible Grace is NOT a component of many who define themselves with the “born again” Christian title. Free will is always a part of the picture which goes hand in hand with the ability to fall from Grace.

Certainly one of the problems with many Protestant branches is the lack of cohesive doctrine even among those who claim similar titles of Born again or OSAS which means one can run into a person who would self identify as “born again” who would also qualify as a OSAS, irressitible grace, no free will etc, but you also will run into MANY who self-identify themselves as born again who violently disagree with irresistible grace and OSAS.

While you are correct that they would dismiss that one needs to follow the commandments to be saved if asked like that because one is saved by “faith alone”, you will also find that they in fact preach that one will follow those commandments naturally for the love of God.

Just flip it and ask if someone will commit murder if they are born again, they will say no.

If you ask if someone will commit adultery if they are saved, they again will say no.

One can go down the list of the commandments, and a OSAS person or a born againer will affirm that those who are saved will not commit those sins.

In general, the born again would say that one could commit those sins and fall from grace until one repented and the OSAS would generally say that a saved person would never commit those sins in the first place.

And again, there are those who would claim the title of Once saved always saved who teach that once one is saved, one can do anything and still go to heaven, teach a complete Lawlessness, but this, is in fact a minority of those who believe in OSAS. As I said previously, most would simply say that one who committed murder or adultery was never saved to begin with.

God Bless,
Maria

**Thank you Marie, Lets put it this way, in all my years refuting the particular sect (OSAS) I have never heard anyone dispute eternal salvation, along with most if not all followers preaching Lawlessness and irresistible grace which they willl refute, however their statements prove a different view point.

MOST in this particular sect, believe nothing can take away their salvation, along with your reference to Calvinist view points, MOST do practice or follow the 5 points of Calvinism, again regardless if they omit it, since it is quite obvious in their statements.

Go scroll this board and read Sandusky and Apops responses for examples.,both agree they do not preach irresistible grace and lawlessness however,their commentaires suggest something different.

Also with regard to the Born Again Sect, MOST again do profess assured salvation, which means nothing can take away their salvation from God or fall from Grace.

Both sects do not believe or are taught salvation can be lost as a general rule.

And with my typo to new age, I do understand and interpret its meaning. My statement was in regard to these new fundie groups who preach a man - made doctrine…

Jan**

 

[sara888]

Well Said Maria.

Jan, you seem to be mixing up three seperate and very different belief systems. New Age
which Maria explained isn’t even Christian, Calvinism (OSAS, irresistable Grace), and Arminianism (which prompted Calvinists at the Snyod of Dort to Invent TULIP).

As far as I can tell, you are accusing all protestants (and new agers?) of Antinomianism, which I think is quite extreme. Kind of like if I said Catholics Worship Mary… Yeah there might be one or two totally misguided Catholics out there but it’s not the norm… Same here - if you dig for a long time, you may be able to find a few protestants who really do believe such a premise but most of us take the Bible literally, “What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!” Romans 6:15

**I would never accuse most prostestants of such absurd practices, as most Mainstream Traditional Prostestants do believe one can lose their salvation or fall from grace.

Its these fundie groups for example . the OSAS and Born Again, that preach a man-made doctrine. Most of these followers that I have had experience debating will agree they cannot lose their salvation… Most OSAS or Born Agains do follow the 5 points of Calvinism which is quite obvious from their commentaires or statements.

Most do preach commandment keeping is essential to Faith ,however non-essential to Salvation, which is not biblical or what Christ teaches.

Many will claim they keep the commandments because they are saved or have been born again, suggesting irresistible grace. etc. etc. etc… Its these particular 2 groups that do follow the 5 point system of Calvinism, even if they do not own up to it.

It is quite clear from their commentaries and statements.

Jan**

 

[Syele]

**I would never accuse most prostestants of such absurd practices, as most Mainstream Traditional Prostestants do believe one can lose their salvation or fall from grace.

Its these fundie groups for example . the OSAS and Born Again, that preach a man-made doctrine. Most of these followers that I have had experience debating will agree they cannot lose their salvation… Most OSAS or Born Agains do follow the 5 points of Calvinism which is quite obvious from their commentaires or statements.

Most do preach commandment keeping is essential to Faith ,however non-essential to Salvation, which is not biblical or what Christ teaches.

Many will claim they keep the commandments because they are saved or have been born again, suggesting irresistible grace. etc. etc. etc… Its these particular 2 groups that do follow the 5 point system of Calvinism, even if they do not own up to it.

It is quite clear from their commentaries and statements.

Jan**

Arminians like myself are not Calvinist nor OSAS and certianly do not believe the 5 points of TULIP but yet we identify ourselves as “Born Again”. TULIP was written spcifically to REFUTE the Armininan beliefs so it is impossible for them to be one and the same. the two groups simply CAN’T both follow the 5 points… one was created to prove the other wrong.

Justification by Faith is one of the very few things the two groups agree on… definitely not the 5 points.

 

[lak611]

Arminians like myself are not Calvinist nor OSAS and certianly do not believe the 5 points of TULIP but yet we identify ourselves as “Born Again”. TULIP was written spcifically to REFUTE the Armininan beliefs so it is impossible for them to be one and the same. the two groups simply CAN’T both follow the 5 points… one was created to prove the other wrong.

Justification by Faith is one of the very few things the two groups agree on… definitely not the 5 points.

I know what the five points of Calvinism are. What are the five points of Arminianism?

 

[sara888]

Arminians like myself are not Calvinist nor OSAS and certianly do not believe the 5 points of TULIP but yet we identify ourselves as “Born Again”. TULIP was written spcifically to REFUTE the Armininan beliefs so it is impossible for them to be one and the same. the two groups simply CAN’T both follow the 5 points… one was created to prove the other wrong.

Justification by Faith is one of the very few things the two groups agree on… definitely not the 5 points.

**We are not talking about Arminians.!!! History of the church will show us false doctrines and how it was originated and how we can be careful. Let me tell you they all used scriptures. There are lot of pastors today who have no idea of church history as a result their disciples are tossed to and fro into all kinds of doctrines.

And I agree their are difference between Arminian and OSAS, however both sects believe in assured salvation which is my original point. Arminian – Free will to choose or reject the gospel… Faith. Regeneration. (New Birth)

I believe all the fundie tenets of doctrine. OSAS, Arminian Born Again. etc.etc. are false doctrine and man-made.

Jan**

 

[sara888]

**

I know what the five points of Calvinism are. What are the five points of Arminianism?

Advocates of both Arminianism and Calvinism find a home in many Protestant denominations

. Denominations leaning in the Arminian direction include Anglicans, Methodists, Free Will Baptists, General Baptists, Churches of Christ, Disciples of Christ, Church of the Nazarene, Seventh-day Adventists, Pentecostals, and Charismatics. Denominations leaning in the Calvinist direction are grouped as the Reformed churches and include Particular Baptists, Reformed Baptists, Presbyterians, and Congregationalists.

The majority of Southern Baptists, including Billy Graham, accept Arminianism with an exception allowing for a doctrine of eternal security.

Humans are naturally unable to make any effort towards salvation
Salvation is possible by grace alone

Works of human effort are not cause or contribution to salvation
God’s election is conditional on faith in Jesus

Jesus’ atonement was potentially for all people

God allows his grace to be resisted by those unwilling to believe
Salvation can be lost, as continued salvation is conditional upon continued faith .

Jan**

 

[Syele]

I know what the five points of Calvinism are. What are the five points of Arminianism?

Think, oppostites…
Total Depravity vs Free Will
Unconditional Election vs Conditional Election
Limited Atonement vs Universal Redemption
Irresistable Grace vs. Resistable Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (OSAS) vs. Can Fall from Grace

For details see:
the-highway.com/compare.html

 

[Syele]

**We are not talking about Arminians.!!! History of the church will show us false doctrines and how it was originated and how we can be careful. Let me tell you they all used scriptures. There are lot of pastors today who have no idea of church history as a result their disciples are tossed to and fro into all kinds of doctrines.

And I agree their are difference between Arminian and OSAS, however both sects believe in assured salvation which is my original point. Arminian – Free will to choose or reject the gospel… Faith. Regeneration. (New Birth)

I believe all the fundie tenets of doctrine. OSAS, Arminian Born Again. etc.etc. are false doctrine and man-made.

Jan**

Jan I’m not following you here:

1. Most Arminians DON’T believe in assured salvation.
2. Arminians DO identify with the term “Born Again”
3. So why are we not talking about Arminians?