Born through the Spirit in John 3:5

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I am a little nervous about starting this thread since I have never started one. Also, I apologize if this topic has been posted before. I tried familiarizing myself with CAF’s rules, so I hope I am doing this right.

Anyway, I had a question concerning John 3:5. This verse relates to a part of Nicodemus’ conversation with Jesus about being born from above. In the Jerusalem Bible, the verse is stated as follows:

“Jesus replied: I tell you most solemnly, unless a man is born through water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

This verse has puzzled me for quite a while. I understand the reference made to water, but I do not understand the reference about the Spirit. What exactly does it mean to be born through the Spirit?
 
I think it means through the power of the Holy Spirit that is conveyed to the person through a valid baptism.
 
Keep on reading to John 4. Notice what Jesus does just after this conversation with Nicodemus. He and His disciples went out and began baptizing.

Now, refer to the accounts of Jesus being baptized by John in the river Jordan. What elements were present? Water, and the (Holy) Spirit. This is the fulfillment of John 3:5. What happened as Jesus came out of the water of the Jordan? The Holy Spirit descended and rested upon him. God’s voice from Heaven called out, “Thou art My beloved Son. With Thee I am well pleased.” As well, John said that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit (Mark 1:8-11). In being baptized by John, Jesus thus sanctified the waters in preparation for the Sacrament of Christian Baptism.

John 3:3-5 is thus speaking of Baptism, which makes us Christian. Compare this with Matthew 28:19 “Go and make disciples of every nation, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”, as well as Mark 16:16 “He who believes, and is baptized, will be saved”

It is all about baptism. That is how Jesus taught, how the Apostles believed, and that is how we believe today.
 
First, you have to understand that man was created with three parts. He is body, soul and spirit. The body is the physical outer part, the soul is the mind, will and emotions and the spirit is the part of man that is made in the image of God, for God is a spirit. When you are “born through the Spirit” or “born again” you are not only physically baptized by water (usually fully immersing a person in a baptismal font or ocean), but internally, your “spirit” comes alive.

Some visible signs that might manifest are: An incessant desire to talk about Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God the Father. You will start to look at the world differently and realize you are different from most people, who are of the world. You will have a compassion and heart for the lost sheep like Jesus did while he was on earth. You will not only desire salvation for yourself and your loved ones, but also for complete strangers as well. You will also have a burning desire to read the bible, the Word of God. Being “born through the Spirit” brings to life the “spirit” part of a person and is a necessary change that requires dying to self (the soul and body) in order to enter God’s kingdom.

Jesus said “wide is the path to destruction, but narrow is the path that leads to salvation”. When you are “born of the Spirit” your spirit is risen, just like Jesus was risen from the dead. That is the new man that the bible talks about. When you are renewed, you will become more like Jesus, who was “in the world, but not of the world”.and then you will be able to follow Jesus command to “go into the world, heal the sick, raise the dead and preach the gospel”. If you can do all this, you are on the path to your eternal salvation.

Jesus Rocks
 
The reply ahead of yours seems slightly nebulous - almost like it involves private interpretation, if you know what I mean…
Whose, Cryptic1’s or the one in the Quick Answer?

As for the former… Cryptic1, you’ll have to excuse me for filling in some of the gaps in your post, because it is kind of, uh… you know… I can’t think of the word. Oh yeah!.. cryptic 🙂
First, you have to understand that man was created with three parts.
That view of the soul as being the mind (and the spirit as being something other than the soul) seems to be popular in some strains of Evangelical Protestantism. It is not supported by Scripture and always struck me as strange as well. In fact it smells like Gnosticism, setting the “good” spirit against the “bad” soul.
Some visible signs that might manifest are: An incessant desire to talk about Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God the Father.
What I want to know is why such a person would not also turn towards the other children of God the Father who are in Heaven, i.e. the Saints., and especially the Mother of God the Son, Mary Most Holy.
You will start to look at the world differently and realize you are different from most people, who are of the world.
I detect some Calvinism here. But why am I different? It isn’t because God created me to be different because…
[BIBLEDRB]1 Timothy 2:3-4[/BIBLEDRB]
… God wills the salvation of even the worldliest of people.
You will have a compassion and heart for the lost sheep like Jesus did while he was on earth. You will not only desire salvation for yourself and your loved ones, but also for complete strangers as well.
Nothing wrong with that.
You will also have a burning desire to read the bible, the Word of God.
Plenty of people have started reading the Bible and have come to the wrong conclusions. Just because someone reads the Bible or quotes Scripture does not mean they have the Holy Spirit. The devil himself quotes Scripture, as we saw when Jesus was being tempted in the desert.

One such wrong conclusion is bibliolatry, that is, automatically plugging in “Bible” whenever the Bible says “Word of God” or “In the beginning was the Word.” Jesus, not the Bible, is the living Word of God. The Bible is inspired by God, but it is not God. The Bible can be called the Word of God as long as it is understood that it is only the written Word of God, not the logos of God, the Second Person of the Trinity.
Being “born through the Spirit” brings to life the “spirit” part of a person and is a necessary change that requires dying to self (the soul and body) in order to enter God’s kingdom.
You correctly note that baptism remits original sin, imparts sanctifying grace and requires the person to die to self in order to remain in that state of grace. No problem here as long as we recognize that we are talking about the Sacrament of Baptism with the proper form thereof (i.e. pouring or immersion of H2O), and not some invisible “baptism of the Holy Spirit.”
Jesus said “wide is the path to destruction, but narrow is the path that leads to salvation”. When you are “born of the Spirit” your spirit is risen, just like Jesus was risen from the dead. That is the new man that the bible talks about.
Nothing wrong with that as long as we recognize that becoming the new man is a lifelong process of sanctification ultimately resulting in union with God in heaven.
When you are renewed, you will become more like Jesus, who was “in the world, but not of the world”.and then you will be able to follow Jesus command to “go into the world, heal the sick, raise the dead and preach the gospel”. If you can do all this, you are on the path to your eternal salvation.
Some saints have actually healed the sick and resurrected the dead, but we have to recognize that these kinds of charismata are extraordinary and, like speaking in tongues, are not something we should count on as indicia of salvation. As St. Paul noted in 1 Corinthians 12-13, love is a lot more important.
 
Keep on reading to John 4. Notice what Jesus does just after this conversation with Nicodemus. He and His disciples went out and began baptizing.

Now, refer to the accounts of Jesus being baptized by John in the river Jordan. What elements were present? Water, and the (Holy) Spirit. This is the fulfillment of John 3:5. What happened as Jesus came out of the water of the Jordan? The Holy Spirit descended and rested upon him. God’s voice from Heaven called out, “Thou art My beloved Son. With Thee I am well pleased.” As well, John said that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit (Mark 1:8-11). In being baptized by John, Jesus thus sanctified the waters in preparation for the Sacrament of Christian Baptism.

John 3:3-5 is thus speaking of Baptism, which makes us Christian. Compare this with Matthew 28:19 “Go and make disciples of every nation, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”, as well as Mark 16:16 “He who believes, and is baptized, will be saved”

It is all about baptism. That is how Jesus taught, how the Apostles believed, and that is how we believe today.
It’s not all about water baptism.

Acts 8:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 **(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized **in the name of the Lord Jesus.

The discerning reader will notice that in the passage above, the Samaritans had been baptised in water and then Peter and John were sent down, who prayed for them and laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit afterwards. Clearly, water baptism is separate from receiving the Holy Spirit.

You must do both, be baptised in water and be baptised in the Holy Spirit. How will you know that you have received the Holy Spirit ? You will speak in tongues.
 
It’s not all about water baptism.

Acts 8:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 **(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized **in the name of the Lord Jesus.

The discerning reader will notice that in the passage above, the Samaritans had been baptised in water and then Peter and John were sent down, who prayed for them and laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit afterwards. Clearly, water baptism is separate from receiving the Holy Spirit.

You must do both, be baptised in water and be baptised in the Holy Spirit. How will you know that you have received the Holy Spirit ? You will speak in tongues.
Kindly notice that the Catholic Church has the Sacrament of Baptism, followed by the Sacrament of Confirmation, in which a Bishop (who can trace his hands-on ordination back to one of the twelve Apostles, or to Paul) lays hands on and calls down the Holy Spirit in an epiclesis. BAM! Baptism for the water component and Confirmation for the Holy Spirit. This was written about in Acts 8:16-17.

But, some received the Holy Spoirit before baptism - simply while Peter was evangelizing them Acts 10:44-48. They were then baptized, which made them Christians instead of just admirers.

As to baptism in the Holy Spirit, you only speak tongues if that is your intended gift. It was not mine, and that is fine with me. Tongues are useless for building up the Church without interpretation. And, our charisms are to be used, not for self edification, but the building up of the Church.
 
Kindly notice that the Catholic Church has the Sacrament of Baptism, followed by the Sacrament of Confirmation, in which a Bishop (who can trace his hands-on ordination back to one of the twelve Apostles, or to Paul) lays hands on and calls down the Holy Spirit in an epiclesis. BAM! Baptism for the water component and Confirmation for the Holy Spirit. This was written about in Acts 8:16-17.

But, some received the Holy Spoirit before baptism - simply while Peter was evangelizing them Acts 10:44-48. They were then baptized, which made them Christians instead of just admirers.

As to baptism in the Holy Spirit,you only speak tongues if that is your gift. It was not mine, and that is fine with me. Tongues are useless for building up the Church without interpretation. And, our charisms are to be used, not for self edification, but the building up of the Church.
That’s funny because when I went through confirmation, I can’t remember receiving the Holy Spirit.
 
That’s funny because when I went through confirmation, I can’t remember receiving the Holy Spirit.
That’s the purpose, to be sealed in the Holy Spirit. Sometimes, those gifts need to be released via the charismatic baptism in the Holy Spirit. That is when His power was released in me, and I was able to realize my charism.
 
That’s the purpose, to be sealed in the Holy Spirit. Sometimes, those gifts need to be released via the charismatic baptism in the Holy Spirit. That is when His power was released in me, and I was able to realize my charism.
No, you only receive the Holy Spirit once. Baptism in the Holy Spirit is the same as receiving the Holy Spirit. You have either received the Holy Spirit or you haven’t ! If you can’t speak in tongues (like Pentecost), you have no evidence that you have received the Spirit.
 
Thank you all for responding, I appreciate it.

Kmuestwin, po18guy, Cryptic1, Cat Herder, and InDefense–your responses have helped me in many ways. I did continue reading to John 4, and as I read, everything became much more clear. I also read portions of the sections regarding the Sacrament of Baptism and the Sacrament of Confirmation in the Catechism to help me understand it a little more. I learned that being born through water and the Spirit both pertain to the Sacrament of Baptism and the Sacrament of Confirmation. Is this right or am I still confused? :confused:

InDefense, there was something about your statement that I have never understood, though. What does it mean to speak in tongues? I’ve often heard that it’s a spiritual gift only some possess while others believe it’s available for everyone.
 
InDefense, there was something about your statement that I have never understood, though. What does it mean to speak in tongues? I’ve often heard that it’s a spiritual gift only some possess while others believe it’s available for everyone.
  1. The 120 Received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues.
Acts 2:33 Being, then, to the right hand of God exalted, besides obtaining the promise of the holy spirit from the Father, He pours out this which you are observing and hearing.
  1. There is no record of the Samaritans speaking in tongues in Acts 8, but how could they have possibly known that the Samaritans hadn’t received the Holy Spirit ?
  2. Paul received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues (1 Corinthians).
  3. Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues.
  4. The disciples in Acts 19 received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues and prophesied.
  5. Every single member of my previous church had all spoken in tongues upon receiving the Holy Spirit. This included every single branch across the country and some internationally. We are talking about thousands of people.
  6. Therefore, the sheer weight of both scriptural and testimonial evidence leads me to conclude that one cannot have the Holy Spirit without the sign of speaking in tongues.
 
Thank you all for responding, I appreciate it.

Kmuestwin, po18guy, Cryptic1, Cat Herder, and InDefense–your responses have helped me in many ways. I did continue reading to John 4, and as I read, everything became much more clear. I also read portions of the sections regarding the Sacrament of Baptism and the Sacrament of Confirmation in the Catechism to help me understand it a little more. I learned that being born through water and the Spirit both pertain to the Sacrament of Baptism and the Sacrament of Confirmation. Is this right or am I still confused? :confused:

InDefense, there was something about your statement that I have never understood, though. What does it mean to speak in tongues? I’ve often heard that it’s a spiritual gift only some possess while others believe it’s available for everyone.
Please don’t be confused by non-Catholics, as they have different beliefs that are all over the map. Some don’t even believe in baptism! Baptism cleanses your soul of original sin as well as all actual sin that you have committed up to that point. Confirmation is the laying on of hands when you receive the Holy Spirit. Normally. As we see from scripture, God will not be limited. A few times, He gives the Spirit first, but normally it is baptism, then confirmation.
 
one cannot have the Holy Spirit without the sign of speaking in tongues.
It’s quite the opposite, my friend.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 12:30-31[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 13:1-3[/BIBLEDRB]

Demanding that people speak in tongues or else go to hell is spiritual abuse. How do you think an outside observer would feel if they went to your church, heard everyone shouting “shambla sola soba!” and so forth, only to hear the pastor say, “and that is the gift of the Holy Spirit! That is how you know you are going to heaven!” How do you think that person feels?

Paul is quite clear that it is LOVE, not speaking in tongues, that is the greatest gift and shows that someone is saved. Stop putting on people a weight they cannot bear.
 
  1. The 120 Received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. You are adding to scripture. It does not say that.
InDefense;8647100:
  1. There is no record of the Samaritans speaking in tongues in Acts 8, but how could they have possibly known that the Samaritans hadn’t received the Holy Spirit ?
  1. Paul received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues (1 Corinthians).
  2. Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. You are adding to scripture. It does not say that.
  1. Every single member of my previous church had all spoken in tongues upon receiving the Holy Spirit. This included every single branch across the country and some internationally. We are talking about thousands of people.
You assume that it was by the Holy Spirit. Without translation, it could have been the devil preaching.
  1. Therefore, the sheer weight of both scriptural and testimonial evidence leads me to conclude that one cannot have the Holy Spirit without the sign of speaking in tongues.
I have no doubt that you love the Lord. But, where in the bible does it say that you will receive the “gift of interpretation of scripture”? Where is the “Gift of interpretation of scripture”" in the bible? Don’t bother looking for it. It is not in there. Peter warns about this.

2 Peter 3:16
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

It is clear that you are lead by a spirit - but, how can it be the Holy Spirit, since He leads to unity and you are preaching division? He always leads to humility and you are demonstrating what appears to be arrogance.

Have you discerned this spirit? Before trying to preach, best to make sure that your beliefs are not InDefensible.

The Holy Spirit unites.
The demon divides.
 
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