Boston bomber angry at the U.S

[Ridgerunner]

Hold to forgiveness, command what is right, and turn away from the ignorant. (Qur’an, 7: 199)

They should rather pardon and overlook. Would you not love Allah to forgive you? Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (Qur’an, 24:22)

The repayment of a bad action is one equivalent to it. But if someone pardons and puts things right, his reward is with Allah… (Qur’an, 42:40)

But if you pardon and exonerate and forgive, Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Qur’an, 64: 14)

Interesting, but does the Koran apply these sayings to infidels? There are some really chilling things in the Koran. This, I believe is Koran 8:12 "“I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them”

Forgiveness is really not an issue in a statement like this. I do understand there are statements in the Koran where the faithful are directed to forgive unbelievers for their unbelief IF the unbelievers become Muslims.

Of course, people on the street in Boston had no opportunity to even consider the choice and so, to the Tsarnaev murderers, forgiveness was not an issue, and the lives of those presumed unbeliever victims were of no consequence to them whatever.

 

[Robertanthony]

Interesting, but does the Koran apply these sayings to infidels? There are some really chilling things in the Koran. This, I believe is Koran 8:12 "“I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them”

Forgiveness is really not an issue in a statement like this. I do understand there are statements in the Koran where the faithful are directed to forgive unbelievers for their unbelief IF the unbelievers become Muslims.

Of course, people on the street in Boston had no opportunity to even consider the choice and so, to the Tsarnaev murderers, forgiveness was not an issue, and the lives of those presumed unbeliever victims were of no consequence to them whatever.

You know, Ridgerunner, sometimes I wonder if hate was not there to begin with and religion was simply used as a rationalization to do crazy stuff. A car doesn’t magically turn an otherwise peaceful and easy-going person into a road rage maniac. Maybe that person had unresolved anger/a quick temper and felt like a car provided a safe outlet for the rage or anger. If the older brother believed in his heart of hearts that he was doing the right thing and that he was pleasing to Allah, hard to fathom but who knows, then he may very well be with the 72 virgins that Allah promises, either that or a lengthy stay in purgatory.

 

[polki]

It is truly to be expected, but part of making sense of what appears to be a senseless act is knowing that these two children (I am referring to a spiritual maturity) were angry at the U.S. in general.

cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57581278/officials-u.s-wars-against-muslims-triggered-suspects/

As much as our Muslim friends encourage peace and “returning evil with good”, the human compulsion is for justice, and the two involved sought carrying out justice in their own way. ** Like all condemnation, the boys’ condemnation of America blocked their empathy toward its people.** They were blind to the humanity of their victims.

I am energized to do something. Our secular society does not have the answers for this problem, but religions do. All major religions emphasize forgiveness, but all followers forget to forgive. ** If the boys were acting out of anger, which it sounds like they were, they had neglected to forgive. **

This is not a Muslim problem but a human problem. We all need to join hands and work together to encourage forgiveness, for it is truly the path to peace. We owe it to the victims of the Boston bombing to forgive all of our enemies. And let us remember - it is our calling to do so.

We all get angry, judge, condemn, and hate compulsively, automatically. We are slaves to our nature. To forgive, we have to will to forgive!

Let’s not confuse anger with evil though.

The boys “comdemnation of America” as you put it, is nothing but an excuse for them to justify their unleashing their evil (not anger) toward innocent people.

This is a jihadist problem. It’s not about forgiveness. It’s about eliminating the enemy, which is anyone who does not practice their version of Islam. It is about power and control. Until we call this what it is, the jihadists will continue to terrorize and kill. Every religion in the world can join hands and forgive, but I do not think forgiving the infidel is in the jihad handbook.

 

[OneSheep]

Wow, I’m really struggling with the whole kumbaya thing. The fact is, this was an evil, despicable act. There is no justification for treating another human being in the cruel, cowardly manner that the two brothers acted. Any religion, country, culture or organization that supports or promotes such actions is purely evil.

And, just so that we are clear, that includes the USA.

We all struggle with this. Of course, the victims struggle much more. We are all capable of having our empathy blocked. Jesus faced an unrepentant crowd and forgave them, “for they do not know what they are doing”.

When we are blind to the humanity of others, “justification” really isn’t in the picture. If a mosquito bugs you, you destroy it. The act seems inconsequential. The two boys were blind to the value of their victims, just as the crowd was blind to the humanity of Jesus. When we condemn people, their destruction can be perceived as a good thing. We are all capable of this. Jesus addresses this directly with His call to forgive.

 

[GaryTaylor]

“Most Muslims on this Earth are good people, but they are not helping to neutralize the jihad,” he said. “They are not standing up against it in any numbers. And that includes American Muslims. They largely remain silent.”

And for “years” this has been pointed out!!!

All we hear after every atrocity is that there are Good Muslims. Usually its the good muslims who want to build mosques on the bombing sights? I’m not sure who’s who? Do these good muslims walk around proclaiming there are Good Christians? I never heard that one either.

 

[OneSheep]

I think they do need more press. I know I have read at least 10 articles on the subject of the Boston Marathon Bombing and I have yet to see a single article note these Muslim organizations condemnation of the terrorist attacks.

I suppose some conspiracy-minded people could say that the press is against Muslims. On the other hand, did the U.S. bishops make a statement every time some Catholic in Ireland did a bombing? It’s like, “Of course we condemn that, why would we even have to make a statement?” We should know Muslim people well enough to know that the vast majority abhor such actions.

Can you quote which sura in the Quran urges its faithful to forgive?

Someone asked why there is so much hatred for the US, the main “culprit” is good old envy. Nothing feeds hate as efficiently as envy IMHO.

It looks like Catholicgeek provided some lines. You make a VERY important point about envy. In my own observation (mostly of myself) I have the capacity to have my empathy blocked when I want something badly and someone is standing in the way. I have concluded that desire also has a way of making my mind block out the feelings and needs of others. In these cases, where desire, not condemnation, is blocking empathy, the message of forgiveness is somewhat misplaced. In such cases, repentance is the key word. We are to repent from our desires for material wealth, status, etc., in order to bring the Kingdom.

But such desire in the absence of condemnation is rare. I can want something badly, then find reasons to disregard the needs of someone standing in the way. I can even find myself looking for reasons to condemn the person. So, yes, envy does feed condemnation (hatred), but then the call to forgive applies.

Let’s not confuse anger with evil though.

The boys “comdemnation of America” as you put it, is nothing but an excuse for them to justify their unleashing their evil (not anger) toward innocent people.

We are still back to the question, though. “Why did the two kill the innocent people?”.
They were feeling angry, and they were blind. They perceived the death and mayhem as inconsequential, but promoting what they saw as some kind of justice. Some people, somewhere, who lost children and loved ones to US aggression, may have applauded what they did, and the boys knew they would. To some people, they are heroes. The need for forgiveness is global.

This is a jihadist problem. It’s not about forgiveness. It’s about eliminating the enemy, which is anyone who does not practice their version of Islam. It is about power and control. Until we call this what it is, the jihadists will continue to terrorize and kill. Every religion in the world can join hands and forgive, but I do not think forgiving the infidel is in the jihad handbook.

Of course it is a jihadist problem. It is also a US problem. It is also a French problem. It is a human problem. We all want to eliminate the enemy instead of forgive, reconcile, and work out our differences.

 

[GaryTaylor]

That’s not true, forgiveness is a condition only met on Islamic terms. What is Islam and those who engage in religious dialogue doing to address the slaughter and subjugation of non-Muslims that is justified by the texts and teachings of Islam?

 

[OneSheep]

Is it your thought here that nobody on earth is truly depraved;…

Yes.

… that no one has turned toward evil because he loves the power and radical freedom that being evil gives him? Is it always about some forgiveness they have not brought themselves to bestow?

If that is your position, then i think there are a lot of psychologists, law enforcement people, case workers and lawyers…people who see it a lot… who would mightily disagree with it.

No, I agree with you, as my anwer to RobertAnthony. Desire for power, status, and wealth also blind us to the value and needs of others. But it really takes condemnation to get us to the point of hurting others. So forgiveness applies. However, empathy-blockage in the absence of condemnation is answered by a call for repentance.

By the way, though, along the “depravity” line, we do evil, but we aren’t evil. We are not to judge people. When we think of someone as evil, we are called to forgive. This is not to say that we don’t do evil, though. This is a very important distinction. The two boys thought the US was evil.

Thanks for bringing up these important issues, Ridgerunner.

Interesting, but does the Koran apply these sayings to infidels? There are some really chilling things in the Koran. This, I believe is Koran 8:12 "“I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them”

Forgiveness is really not an issue in a statement like this. I do understand there are statements in the Koran where the faithful are directed to forgive unbelievers for their unbelief IF the unbelievers become Muslims.

Of course, people on the street in Boston had no opportunity to even consider the choice and so, to the Tsarnaev murderers, forgiveness was not an issue, and the lives of those presumed unbeliever victims were of no consequence to them whatever.

Arguably, even our own Gospel has its share of contradictions. For example, Jesus asks us not to judge, but then He refers to “wicked men”. I think either something was lost in the translation, or He was speaking tongue-in-cheek, or being human, He was just as capable of sometimes failing to forgive as the next guy. I go with the first scenario.

Forgiveness was definitely at issue in terms of the two forgiving the US. They did not.

 

[OneSheep]

That’s not true, forgiveness is a condition only met on Islamic terms. What is Islam and those who engage in religious dialogue doing to address the slaughter and subjugation of non-Muslims that is justified by the texts and teachings of Islam?

I am trying to focus on the positive aspects. Every group of religious followers has their issues. All religions emphasize forgiveness, that is the point from which we can begin to talk, reconcile, and change the world. Yesterday, I heard someone on the radio say that we cannot legislate against hate, we can only legislate against crimes done out of hatred.

This is where religion steps in, the answer is not from the government. It is our religious institutions that can address the hate by calling us to forgive.

It does no good to point and blame. We all have posts to remove from our eyes.

 

[TimeEntrance]

1. A great many Irish Catholics in Boston used to give money to NORAID which directly supported IRA terrorism. Maybe thes people should be searching their consciences right now that they have had an experience of the death of innocents by terrorist violence. Note for instance this story about the IRA blowing up marathon runners

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_Lisburn_van_bombing

Weren’t those soldiers that were killed? I thought the IRA as a rule of thumb tried never to kill children in their bombings.

I think all governments and any military usually engages in terrorism, terrorizing, when confronting with a foe they are combating.

The United States refuses to agree to outlawing landmines in war. I suspect because we don’t plant landmines all over the United States and innocent American children out walking or playing aren’t being blown apart by stepping on them. But we have left these things over the landscapes of other nations like Vietnam. I view this as a form of terror.

But causing terror, creating carnage, is what military warfare today is about anyways. That’s how you get other leaders in enemy nations to cede to your demands. Or it’s the mere threat of causing such terror. The United States tries to reduce “collateral damage” but innocents will still get caught in the bombings anyways. But governments like the United States tries more to bomb and destroy infrastructure rather than targeting human being (let alone non-combatants) like terrorists like the Boston Bombers did and do.

 

[livnlern]

Yes.
Arguably, even our own Gospel has its share of contradictions. For example, Jesus asks us not to judge, but then He refers to “wicked men”. I think either something was lost in the translation, or He was speaking tongue-in-cheek, or being human, He was just as capable of sometimes failing to forgive as the next guy. I go with the first scenario.

Jesus forgave the men who crucified Him. In other words, He forgave those who caused Him untold agony on the cross. He said He was “the way, the truth , and the life”. How could He be the truth if He sometimes said things that were tongue-in-cheek? He ALWAYS spoke the truth. Why would he speak humorously or risk being misunderstood when what He said was meant to guide people throughout the ages?

 

[OneSheep]

Jesus forgave the men who crucified Him. In other words, He forgave those who caused Him untold agony on the cross. He said He was “the way, the truth , and the life”. How could He be the truth if He sometimes said things that were tongue-in-cheek? He ALWAYS spoke the truth. Why would he speak humorously or risk being misunderstood when what He said was meant to guide people throughout the ages?

Sorry, my post was confusing. When I said “I go with the first scenario”, I meant that I lean toward the idea that something was lost in the translation of the text, that the contradiction was a translation error. BTW, Jesus also referred to the woman at the well as one of the “dogs”. I think that something was lost then too. I am not ruling out a tongue-in-cheek possibility. He could have been saying “dogs” like he was quoting the common opinion of his nation, even though he did not agree with the label. Important inflections and tone get lost in translation; we have to discern who Christ is by looking at the whole picture, and questioning the contradictions.

 

[OneSheep]

Yes, I have heard this explanation too. It works for me, and somewhat falls under the tongue-in-cheek category, but not in a kidding way, in a testing way. Whether it is kidding or testing, the words are not used descriptively but meant to bring about a response, they were rhetorical.

Anyway, the point of the matter is that Christianity has some explaining to do as well as Islam, and for that matter so do adherents to all major world religions. We like to think that our doctrine is perfect, but people read texts and interpret within the context of their own experiences and vocabulary, so there are always issues to work out.

Bringing it all back to the topic, I am thinking along the lines of getting together a local group of people from several faiths for the purpose of creating some kind of task force that promotes forgiveness in our area. We have a lot of gang activity, and everything we can do to promote forgiveness will truly help.

Hopefully, people will become more broadly aware, too, of the peaceful intentions of the vast majority of followers of Islam. From the reports I have heard, the older brother was not exactly a “follower”. Perhaps if he had been, there would have been one less bombing in our world.

voanews.com/content/boston-mosque-condemns-terrorist-bombers/1649963.html

 

[GaryTaylor]

It does no good to point and blame

The point is not to place blame., its to acknowledge a existing reality and provide an active plan to reconcile. This doesn’t go against the grain in forgiveness. I fail to see this point.

It would be ignorance and some form of un-founded pious suggestion, to simply love, forgive, and make no confrontation to evil. In fact I would suggest by doing so one would be accepting the evil and thus cooperating with it, be in their own mind they disagree with it. Its called the appalling silence of the good. And that would be “all” including these “good” muslims who have taken no action whatsoever to identify the specific areas and then stand against them by addressing the hatred and evil, and in particular as imposed by Sharia Law.

I would then argue I shouldn’t expect others to do what I myself won’t do. Truly this is not a path for the Free, perhaps acceptance of Slavery as in Exodus/Egypt which is some form of accepted conditioning.

Seems to me your proposing a “forgiveness” ideal not based in reality. I forgive, forgetting is a completely different reality. I don’t hate muslims I disagree with their radical ideals which are rooted contrary to the ideas of life and freedom.

 

[SamH]

You have hit the crux of the problem of understanding. What were these two thinking? How is it that people can be blind to the humanity of others? How did they justify what they did? These are all questions to investigate and understand, helping us see their blindness and ignorance, which helps us in the forgiveness process.
.

The Devil’s greatest sin was convincing the world he didn’t exist.

 

[OneSheep]

The point is not to place blame., its to acknowledge a existing reality and provide an active plan to reconcile. This doesn’t go against the grain in forgiveness. I fail to see this point.

By the “point and blame” part, I was referring to saying that Muslims don’t do enough. None of us do enough to encourage forgiveness, except Jesus.

It would be ignorance and some form of un-founded pious suggestion, to simply love, forgive, and make no confrontation to evil. In fact I would suggest by doing so one would be accepting the evil and thus cooperating with it, be in their own mind they disagree with it. Its called the appalling silence of the good. And that would be “all” including these “good” muslims who have taken no action whatsoever to identify the specific areas and then stand against them by addressing the hatred and evil, and in particular as imposed by Sharia Law.

I am not sure about the “hate and evil” imposed by Sharia Law. I’m not sure what part of it you are referring to. Perhaps I misunderstood your comment. I do agree with you about confronting the evil that people do. Standing by and doing nothing is not part of what it takes to build the Kingdom. We all have to do something, and this thread is one of the things that I am doing.

I would then argue I shouldn’t expect others to do what I myself won’t do. Truly this is not a path for the Free, perhaps acceptance of Slavery as in Exodus/Egypt which is some form of accepted conditioning.

Seems to me your proposing a “forgiveness” ideal not based in reality. I forgive, forgetting is a completely different reality. I don’t hate muslims I disagree with their radical ideals which are rooted contrary to the ideas of life and freedom.

I agree. Please be careful with “their”, though. Radicalism in Islam is far from universal. Muslims who believe in the Sharia, for example, see the law as freeing, just as the law functions in our own society. Of course, there are cultural differences, and I disagree with a lot of Sharia law, but our own social restrictions used to be pretty severe too, at times in Western history. Laws evolve as consideration is given both to protection and freedom - and human rights.

 

[OneSheep]

The Devil’s greatest sin was convincing the world he didn’t exist.

I’m not sure what you are responding to here, Sam. It is an extremely powerful thing to contest the idea that “the devil made me do it”, and that idea certainly doesn’t stand up in court.

It is quite helpful for people to take ownership of their reactions. For example, the two people involved, like many others, probably include the US in their idea of “the great satan”. Let’s turn it around for these folks, for example, we could say:

1. The US has done some things that you folks resent, understandably so.
2. You are thinking that the US is part of a great evil force in the world, a perception triggered by your own resentment.
3. Please, be peacemakers, and start with yourselves. Start by forgiving the US, just as I forgive and understand your own hate and resentment. Do not refrain from taking action to make things better, but do so with love and forgiveness in your hearts.

Do you see where I am coming from on this?

Realistic? Absolutely.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Yes.

But it really takes condemnation to get us to the point of hurting others.

I don’t know where you get this. You are, in effect, saying nobody would ever hurt anybody else unless the perpetrator himself was hurt first. This is not psychologically or morally correct. We actually do have free will and can do evil without having any motivation for it other than malice or self aggrandizement.

 

[SamH]

Do you see where I am coming from on this?

Realistic? Absolutely.

Yes I see where you are coming from, I just happen to know you are completely wrong.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

Interesting, but does the Koran apply these sayings to infidels? There are some really chilling things in the Koran. This, I believe is Koran 8:12 "“I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them”

Forgiveness is really not an issue in a statement like this. I do understand there are statements in the Koran where the faithful are directed to forgive unbelievers for their unbelief IF the unbelievers become Muslims.

Of course, people on the street in Boston had no opportunity to even consider the choice and so, to the Tsarnaev murderers, forgiveness was not an issue, and the lives of those presumed unbeliever victims were of no consequence to them whatever.

I think that those followers of Islam that use terror and the killing of innocents in the name of God, are profaning the religion of Islam. That is not to say that there are not large numbers doing so. It is also not to say that it is not a problem, but I do think that it is wrong to say Islam itself teaches these things. The problem to me lies in those teachers that pervert Islam for their own ends.

I saw a quote on Facebook the other day that stuck with me and I think it is appropriate “Many/most Muslims look at Islamic terrorists the same way most Christians look at the Westboro Baptist Church.”