Boundaries with parents

[Maine52]

I have recently come to the realization and understanding that I was mentally and emotionally abused by my father and to a lesser extent my mother during my childhood and adolescent/young adult life. I am now in my thirties, married 4 years with a 1.5 year old daughter.

Each day brings a new challenge of making peace with the lasting effects of the psychological abuse. I’m thankful for my husband who treats me very well and my daughter. Though I still have quite a bit of contact with my parents, which is mainly okay, but also challenging.

The thing is they are great people when they’re not being abusive. They are totally thrilled to have a granddaughter and want to spend a lot of time with her. They live across the country so one on one time is naturally limited, and I admit I am glad for that. They manage to visit about 6 -7 times a year, and when they do, I feel the tension as soon as they walk in the door. When they are not visiting, the expectation is for me to engage in daily conversations with them via phone and sometimes Skype, sometimes multiple times a day. If I don’t, I am very subtly guilt tripped about it.

I know I’m being vague here, but a lot of this is difficult to put into words. My parents very subtly manipulate me into doing what they want and then guilt trip me if I don’t. They also personally have a great deal of unhappiness and anxiety which has rubbed off on me from childhood, and when I am away from them I am fine, but when I am around them, it comes back. I guess my question is, how do I limit my time with them via phone and Skype? I just don’t feel strong enough to say no. Please help.

 

[agnes_therese]

I know I’m being vague here, but a lot of this is difficult to put into words. My parents very subtly manipulate me into doing what they want and then guilt trip me if I don’t. They also personally have a great deal of unhappiness and anxiety which has rubbed off on me from childhood, and when I am away from them I am fine, but when I am around them, it comes back. I guess my question is, how do I limit my time with them via phone and Skype? I just don’t feel strong enough to say no. Please help.

Unfortunately, the only way to say no, is to say no. They are being absolutely unreasonable to expect you to take time away from your family every day. In fact, I personally think that 6-7 visits a year is out of line. Have you read the book “Boundaries”? It’s very helpful.

IMO, you and your husband should sit down and decide how often you’ll talk to them. And then you’re just going to have to tell them, “Mom, Dad, I have my own family now, and as you know, raising a child takes a lot of time and energy. Let’s plan to talk every Sunday afternoon.” (or whatever schedule you & DH decide on.) And then stop answering the phone every time they call.

You’re going to have to repeat this any number of times until it gets through. They’re used to controlling you, and that’s a hard habit to break. It’s also going to be hard for you to break the habit of allowing them to control you. But you have to put a stop to this, or you’ll be letting them make you miserable forever.

 

[Xantippe]

maine52 said:

“They manage to visit about 6 -7 times a year, and when they do, I feel the tension as soon as they walk in the door. When they are not visiting, the expectation is for me to engage in daily conversations with them via phone and sometimes Skype, sometimes multiple times a day. If I don’t, I am very subtly guilt tripped about it.”

“I know I’m being vague here, but a lot of this is difficult to put into words.”

No, I think you’re being clear enough.

6-7 visits a year from grandparents that you had an amazing relationship with would still be a bit much. What is your comfort level for these visits? Can you manage half as many?

Talking to anybody daily is a lot, especially if it isn’t enjoyable. With the phone conversations, can you talk to them ONCE a day, or do you need to cut down further? You don’t need to answer your phone, and you can work on shortening calls when you do. At your daughter’s age, you have lots of perfectly good excuses.

“Ooh–I think DD is stinky! I need to sign off. I’ll try to talk to you in a couple days.”

[Sound of yell in background] “Uh oh, gotta go! Don’t worry–I’ll talk to you in a few days.” [Click]

“I need to feed DD her lunch now! That’s a big job! I’ll call you when I can.”

“I’ve got to get this [yogurt, oatmeal, peanut butter, cream cheese, whatever] out of DD’s hair. We’ll talk later.”

“DH is home! Love you, I’ve got to go!”

“DD wants to hear a story. Got to go!”

“It’s DD’s bed time. I’ll talk to you in a few days.”

“I have to leave for a playdate with a friend. We’ll talk later in the week.”

There are probably infinite permutations of this. Notice, by the way, how short the lines are. You can get the job done in a dozen words.

 

[Musician]

Read “Boundaries” It saved my life with my overbearing parents.
Remember, “no” can be the hardest word to say but it is well-worth learning.

 

[takers]

Read “Boundaries” It saved my life with my overbearing parents.
Remember, “no” can be the hardest word to say but it is well-worth learning.

My DH has started reading this book to help him with his family boundary issues and even just a few chapters in he says he’s getting insight. There are a few different “Boundaries” books as well, such as Boundaries, Boundaries in Marriage, Boundaries with Kids, etc.

 

[Maine52]

Thank you all.

Just a few more details…

I guess I see all of this as “normal” because I grew up with it, and I’m just now starting to question things. So I guess I’m just seeking further opinions. It’s hard because they are so kind to everyone, even to me and DH and DD, and everyone around them thinks they’re great people. No one can see the subtle manipulation, and so sometimes I feel like no one can help me. When I was little, they very subtly put me down, implied I was a burden, said everything that went wrong was my fault. They didn’t come out and SAY any of that…it was very subtly IMPLIED. I honestly don’t think they realized they were doing it. Growing up, sometimes I just wished they’d just hit me so at least they could see what they were doing, and so others could see it too and get me help.

Fast forward to present day. During the nightly calls, my mother asks many questions and requests a great deal of detail. She needs to know everything we did that day and what are plans are for the rest of the evening and the next day. If she later finds out about something that I didn’t tell her about previously, she says, “Why didn’t you tell me about that before? You know I need details. You need to tell me everything!” She says it in a light-hearted, almost joking way, but she means it.

When DH and I were on our honeymoon, I did not call them at all, but I felt obligated to send text messages. So I took time out each day to send a synopsis of what we did each day of our honeymoon.

My parents have a poor relationship with each other and are generally unhappy people - they hate their work, where they live, and have a bad marriage. My mother has said that I am her life and without me she has no reason to live. My dad hasn’t said that but I get the same vibe from him.

So…further opinions?

 

[EasterJoy]

The trick is to disengage from the guilt trips by seeing what they are in a different way. If you haven’t learned to disengage from emotional bids to sway you from your boundaries, after all, it is high time to learn. You’re a parent, now!

You will learn that the emotion of guilt is not a fire, let alone a flame thrower or an attack, but rather a smoke alarm. No, you can’t afford to just ignore it. Yes, it makes your heart beat faster, and maybe it always will. That’s OK, you can learn to cope without suffering. Somebody has learned that they can make you run around a certain way by throwing your smoke alarm? They can be re-taught, and your relationship might even get better when that happens. You don’t have to do what other people want in order to have a serene relationship. It does help to be consistent. Children aren’t the only ones who cope better when those around them are consistent!

Your parents may have to learn this, but you have the authority to make the call that there is a lot of smoke, but no fire. You have the authority to turn a fan on and tune the blaring noise out or turn it off. You can allow yourself to keep a stove or an oven even though it generates an annoying amount of smoke. You can keep a smoke alarm that goes off at inconvenient times when there is no fire. You can decide the guilt trips are inappropriate and yet be annoyed by them instead of taking them personally. Let your parents take it personally that you are willing to draw a boundary and stick with it. You can decide to ignore or turn away their ploys while staying serene. How? By expecting them to do it, refusing to react as they intend, and instead having a plan for the responses you can give.

To tell the truth, when one learns to turn off the guilt alarm, it gradually starts to feel really good. It is a big confidence-builder, and it extends to every part of your interactions with others. You learn to handle your parents’ dismay with all the grace and mature calm that you do when your child throws a tantrum. Having learned that, you can learn to handle anyone’s dismay with grace and mature calm. Maybe you’ll have to debrief afterwards, but you can handle this without showing a single ripple on the surface.

You won’t train your child in a day what your boundaries are, and you won’t re-train your parents in a day. They, like your children, may never stop “testing your boundaries.” You can, however, learn to expect these little ploys and feel confident about riding them out on your own terms.

If you wanted to learn any other important skill and wanted to learn quickly, you’d get professional coaching. You’d get feedback from someone who wants you to succeed. I would get “Boundaries,” but I’d also get experienced help in doing this. You won’t regret it.

 

[Xantippe]

Maine52 said:

“Fast forward to present day. During the nightly calls, my mother asks many questions and requests a great deal of detail. She needs to know everything we did that day and what are plans are for the rest of the evening and the next day. If she later finds out about something that I didn’t tell her about previously, she says, “Why didn’t you tell me about that before? You know I need details. You need to tell me everything!” She says it in a light-hearted, almost joking way, but she means it.”

I think I’d say to that (also in a light-hearted, joking way), “You don’t need to know every little detail, mom.”

 

[Maine52]

Maine52 said:

“Fast forward to present day. During the nightly calls, my mother asks many questions and requests a great deal of detail. She needs to know everything we did that day and what are plans are for the rest of the evening and the next day. If she later finds out about something that I didn’t tell her about previously, she says, “Why didn’t you tell me about that before? You know I need details. You need to tell me everything!” She says it in a light-hearted, almost joking way, but she means it.”

I think I’d say to that (also in a light-hearted, joking way), “You don’t need to know every little detail, mom.”

Thanks.

I guess what I am asking, though, is - is requesting all these details a “normal” way to behave?

 

[mommamaree]

Thanks.

I guess what I am asking, though, is - is requesting all these details a “normal” way to behave?

No, it is not normal. Your mother is completely wrapped up in your life. It is unhealthy for you, and it is unhealthy for her.

 

[Xantippe]

Maine52 said:

“I guess what I am asking, though, is - is requesting all these details a “normal” way to behave?”

Nope. I’m not even that interested in the details of MY life.

 

[EasterJoy]

…During the nightly calls, my mother asks many questions and requests a great deal of detail. She needs to know everything we did that day and what are plans are for the rest of the evening and the next day. If she later finds out about something that I didn’t tell her about previously, she says, “Why didn’t you tell me about that before? You know I need details. You need to tell me everything!” She says it in a light-hearted, almost joking way, but she means it.

When DH and I were on our honeymoon, I did not call them at all, but I felt obligated to send text messages. So I took time out each day to send a synopsis of what we did each day of our honeymoon.

My parents have a poor relationship with each other and are generally unhappy people - they hate their work, where they live, and have a bad marriage. My mother has said that I am her life and without me she has no reason to live. My dad hasn’t said that but I get the same vibe from him.

So…further opinions?

First off: Your parents lives are your parents lives. Your life is your life. This is an obvious truth. Your mother cannot even dispute it. Nothing your mother does, says, or hopes for will change it. You don’t have to be that blunt about it, there are more and less kind ways to start living this truth, but you can safely act with this as an axiom without hurting her or letting her down. She’s not going to be quite so joking when it dawns on her that you get this, but part of the joking has been to keep the inevitable day from coming when this obvious truth gets its day. She may pitch some fits when you start living this, but it won’t hurt her. She won’t like it at first, but she’ll live and it is the more appropriate situation for everyone, including her.

Second: You have the very good situation in that (let us be blunt), your parents are more dependent on you than you are on them. They are not going to shun you because you draw boundaries, because a reasonable slice of bread is worth having even though you’d like to pig up the whole loaf. In spite of whatever unrealistic things you’ve read into what they say (which may have been intended, but may not have been), they love you and prize the place you have in their lives.

Third, and most obvious: Your mother absolutely does *not *need details. She has convinced herself she has some sort of addiction to the details of your life, but in reality she has no right and no need to know so much about your life. It isn’t actually good for her to have so much. It is like giving a kid the key to the candy cupboard. If she doesn’t have enough self control to live on less, you are going to have to keep the key and feed her the amount that will do both of you good, not the amount that she wants.

When you cut off your mom from some of the details of your life–Mom, I really don’t enjoy going over every little detail of my life with you. I know you are just showing you care, but it makes me feel like I’m your ant farm–tell her that it is time she start to tell you about the details of her life. What has she been up to? What is she looking forward to? Well, why not? What is she going to do about it? You’re an adult now. You get to ask these questions!

Again: I’d talk to a family counsellor about how to scale back your communications with your parents so that you enjoy it and they are encouraged to find more happiness in their own lives. The vicariously-lived section of their lives needs to draw to a close. With someone to guide you, I think you can point them in the right direction. The rest will be up to them. They’re grown-ups! They can do it, and you can let them. They should have made this separation themselves, on your behalf, but with some help you can do it with or without their initial consent, whether they like it or not. Do get the help, though, because it will save your stomach some churning. You’d live through that, but why? Life is too short for suffering that doesn’t achieve any good for anyone.

 

[tawny]

Unfortunately, the only way to say no, is to say no. They are being absolutely unreasonable to expect you to take time away from your family every day. In fact, I personally think that 6-7 visits a year is out of line. Have you read the book “Boundaries”? It’s very helpful.

IMO, you and your husband should sit down and decide how often you’ll talk to them. And then you’re just going to have to tell them, “Mom, Dad, I have my own family now, and as you know, raising a child takes a lot of time and energy. Let’s plan to talk every Sunday afternoon.” (or whatever schedule you & DH decide on.) And then stop answering the phone every time they call.

You’re going to have to repeat this any number of times until it gets through. They’re used to controlling you, and that’s a hard habit to break. It’s also going to be hard for you to break the habit of allowing them to control you. But you have to put a stop to this, or you’ll be letting them make you miserable forever.

Well stated. A very good book.

 

[Xantippe]

My kin are on the other end of the spectrum, and if I got a phone call from anybody on my side of the family, I would immediately assume that somebody had died or that they wanted me to do something for them. I’m not crazy about that, either, but it gives you and idea of the variation in practices.

 

[EasterJoy]

Thanks.

I guess what I am asking, though, is - is requesting all these details a “normal” way to behave?

No, it is not normal, and she knows it. That is why she makes the jokes. She’s crossing a boundary, she knows it, but she’s hoping you’ll let her get away with it. If joking doesn’t work and you tell her that you’re going to close some of your closets on her, she may throw herself a pity party and see if she can get you to join her. Don’t bite. Take the route of “Mom, you had to know that I wasn’t going to go along with this forever. Nobody does this. Good grief, most parents who got a text message from their daughter on her honeymoon would have told HER to stop it! So save the drama, it is only going to make it harder for you.”

I have to wonder if she doesn’t have a bad habit of wanting to nose into other people’s lives, and you’re the only one she’s successfully taught to accept it. No matter. It is a bad habit, and she needs to know you’re not going to let her indulge it on you any more. She will probably try to buffalo you back into do things her way, and since you are sensitive to her disapproval, that will be hard for you. Don’t worry; it is hard for any of us to have to put boundaries on our own mothers. Most of us had to go through this separation. Some of us did it at such a young age that we did it in a way that was ugly and stupid. This is one of those “any landing you walk away from is a good one” times. If you get a smooth ride, great, but be ready for a rough one. You can still do it!

 

[EasterJoy]

BTW, if your mom is a busybody who makes a nuisance of herself by telling everyone else how they could be running their lives better, it wouldn’t be any wonder if it drove your dad nuts. He may turn out to be an ally, as you re-draw your boundaries. The main thing to remember is that if your parents’ relationship changes because they no longer have the distraction of butting into your life, that doesn’t make those changes any of your doing. If living their lives vicariously through you was their plan for avoiding their own relationship problems, that was a very short-sighted plan and a rather self-centered one, too. Take-home message: If you draw a boundary to give yourself more privacy and their relationship goes south, it is not your fault. If they have been doing that to you, it was unfair to you and needed to stop. Fixing any damage is their work, not yours.

 

[agnes_therese]

Thanks.

I guess what I am asking, though, is - is requesting all these details a “normal” way to behave?

No, it’s not.

 

[EasterJoy]

BTW, if your mom wants to find someone who will actually come to her with their problems so she can tell them what they *ought *to be doing, you really have to turn her on to internet forums!

Bye! Good luck!!

 

[Xantippe]

EasterJoy said:

“BTW, if your mom wants to find someone who will actually come to her with their problems so she can tell them what they ought to be doing, you really have to turn her on to internet forums!”

Yes, but not this one, please!!!

 

[EasterJoy]

EasterJoy said:

“BTW, if your mom wants to find someone who will actually come to her with their problems so she can tell them what they ought to be doing, you really have to turn her on to internet forums!”

Yes, but not this one, please!!!

You do realize I was just poking fun at myself?

If she’s *good *at giving advice, it would not be a bad thing for her to find a way to be trained to do it professionally, or at least to find a place where her advice was solicited and free to be ignored. But no, I was not implying that she’d do more good here than she is already doing for her daughter!

In any event, even if she gives advice or keeps the details of the lives of others in order for a living, she still needs to cut it out with doing it for her grown daughter! Her qualifications are not the issue. Her daughter’s need to run her own life without unsolicited advice and without unneeded supervision is the issue.