Bowing during the Creed

[MarkThompson]

In the older mass we always knelt at that point. When the mass was revised, that was changed to a bow, with kneeling for Christmas and the Annunciation.

• • and promptly forgotten by all.

Actually, there’s a great deal of confusion about the genuflection during the Credo at a high Mass. Some people kneel when the priest does, even though he is saying his own silent Credo. Other people kneel much later, when the choral Credo gets to the Incarnatus, even though this is often very difficult to discern and is arguably not the actual liturgical Credo at all. Some people kneel both times, believe it or not. Either way, plenty of people are confused, and the rubrics don’t provide any apparent solution.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Oh, the Orans is perfectly normal and right for the Priest and Bishop. Not sure if a Deacon is supposed to do it in the Roman Rite, but they do so in the Byzantine Rite.

I wish there’s a layperson on the first row that everyone should follow. Sometimes even the choir is unreliable as they stand to sing when others should be sitting or kneeling.

No, the Deacon is not supposed to. Our choir is behind a chancel screen so we can’t see what their doing anyway.

 

[The_Reginator]

Uh oh.
I’ve been on this thing too long tonight.
I just read the thread title a “Bowling during the Creed”.
Good-night.
:yawn:

 

[RebeccaJ]

Oh, the Orans is perfectly normal and right for the Priest and Bishop. Not sure if a Deacon is supposed to do it in the Roman Rite, but they do so in the Byzantine Rite.

ConstantineTG, I have been thinking more on this, and remember one of our deacons telling me that it is expressly forbidden for the deacon to raise his hands, as he he never a concelebrant, and should never do anything that would confuse anyone into thinking that he is.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

it is in the rubrics at least of every missal I have and has been as long as I can remember. What is more common is that people simply stop doing it, and need to be reminded
on the feast of the Annunciation and I think Christmas we genuflect at these words

in acknowledgement of the mystery of the Incarnation, the lynchpin salvific event of all history when God becomes Man and so intiates the Paschal mystery that culminates in the Crucifixion and Resurrection

I bow…but do have a question. How is there enough room in the pew to geneflect? It’s a honest question…I’ve wondered it ever since I saw the instructions in the missal.

 

[I_Thirst]

I seem to recall that I read (somewhere!) that one is supposed to make a profound bow (from the waist) rather than bow (inclination of the head). IIRC it’s in The How-To Book Of The Mass. I’ll see if I can find my copy in the stacks.

Anyone heard this before?

 

[MarkThompson]

I bow…but do have a question. How is there enough room in the pew to geneflect? It’s a honest question…I’ve wondered it ever since I saw the instructions in the missal.

The same way there is enough room when you kneel at the Consecration.

 

[MarkThompson]

I seem to recall that I read (somewhere!) that one is supposed to make a profound bow (from the waist) rather than bow (inclination of the head). IIRC it’s in The How-To Book Of The Mass. I’ll see if I can find my copy in the stacks.

Anyone heard this before?

The rule is in the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM):

1. A bow signifies reverence and honor shown to the persons themselves or to the signs that represent them. There are two kinds of bows: a bow of the head and a bow of the body.
   
   a. A bow of the head is made when the three Divine Persons are named together and at the names of Jesus, of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and of the Saint in whose honor Mass is being celebrated.
   ​

b. A bow of the body, that is to say a profound bow, is made to the altar; during the prayers Munda cor meum (Almighty God, cleanse my heart) and In spiritu humilitatis (Lord God, we ask you to receive); in the Creed at the words Et incarnatus est (by the power of the Holy Spirit . . . made man); in the Roman Canon at the words Supplices te rogamus (Almighty God, we pray that your angel). The same kind of bow is made by the deacon when he asks for a blessing before the proclamation of the Gospel. In addition, the priest bows slightly as he speaks the words of the Lord at the consecration.​

 

[I_Thirst]

Thanks, Mark!

 

[MarkThompson]

Thanks, Mark!

You’re welcome, of course! It’s worth pointing out that I cited that rubric only to show the difference between a bow of the head and a profound bow. Mostly it is a rubric for the priest – the whole congregation is not supposed to bow at Supplices te rogamus, for instance. The (separate) directive to the congregation to make a profound bow during the Creed is in ¶ 137, which I cited above in post no. 3.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

At the EF I often assist at there are enough altar boys (and deacons too) to follow. Most of us use them as a guide.

Of course that had its dangers. My father told of being at a High Mass in the 40’s. At one point the altar boys all quietly genuflected. Of course everyone in the church then genuflected with an accompanying clatter. The priest stopped and turned to look back. Of course the altar boys all looked as innocent as angels.

Never trust the altar boys. They have lots of tricks.

 

[JerrySeibert]

I converted at an FSSP parish. Unlike the OF, at the EF
Forgive my ignorance, I have seen mentioned in many forums but,
what does FSSP Mean??? Or OF…Ef???
I attend an ordinary Church, Christ the King in Toledo. What classification would that fall under? Sorry, but I have no clue.

 

[The_Reginator]

I converted at an FSSP parish. Unlike the OF, at the EF
Forgive my ignorance, I have seen mentioned in many forums but,
what does FSSP Mean??? Or OF…Ef???

I attend an ordinary Church, Christ the King in Toledo. What classification would that fall under?  Sorry, but I have no clue.

1. FSSP refers to “a community of Roman Catholic priests who do not take religious vows, but who work together for a common mission in the world. The mission of the Fraternity is two-fold: first, the formation and sanctification of priests in the cadre of the traditional liturgy of the Roman rite, and secondly, the pastoral deployment of the priests in the service of the Church.” (Quote from their web site.) Those are the priests serving the parish you converted at. (I did the same. )
   FSSP means Fraternitas Sacerdotalis Sancti Petri. In English that’s the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter
   Here’s their web site.
2. OF = “Ordinary Form” of Mass. This is the Novus Ordo Mass that has been in place since about 1969.
   EF = “Extraordinary Form” of Mass. This is often referred to as the TLM, or ‘Traditional Latin Mass’. As far as I know we always use the
   Tridentine Mass according to the 1962 Missal, promulgated by Blessed Pope John XXIII.

Jerry, at Christ the King in Toledo do they offer Mass under both forms?

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

The same way there is enough room when you kneel at the Consecration.

Well that’s a very delibrate kneeling…pulling out the kneeler and all that. This is really quick…seems difficult for most people to do…pop down on one knee and then back up. Maybe that’s why I’ve never seen it. The bowing…yes…but not the geneflect.