Boy age 12 becomes youngest transsexual

[pathia]

I am familar with guys who have had lost both testicules from cancer and require testoserone replacement gells and the like. Most don’t have the problems you speak of. Tim

Men who live long enough to have testicular cancer are not likely transsexual. That was not the point of my post. My point was saying that treating this child with testosterone is likely to only make life more miserable.

 

[pathia]

But your behavior wasn’t ‘girl’ behavior it was simply you being you.

I have a sister that has always been into sports and athletics. She is a little masculine. Her hubby is somewhat feminine. Yet they are happy just being them.

My daughters have a wide range of male and female activities that they enjoy. My youngest daughter, especially has traits that can be associated with both genders. She roughhouses, plays with trucks, loves the creepy-crawlies and seems to like playing with boys over girls. She also LOVES jewelry. She wears her little plastic jewelry everyday. Occasionally she even likes to look pretty in dresses and bows.

My point is there is no normal behavior. You are just you and there is nothing more to it.

My point in that tangent was to explain I was the way I was before my parents really even had any sort of influence on my behavior that is considered ‘gendered’. Just because this child is transsexual does not mean the parents were horrible parents.

Paul McHugh, Professor of Psychiatry at Johns Hopkins University, writes in First Things:

Full text: Surgical Sex by Paul McHugh. First Things. November 2004.

Things are like day and light for me, really. When I lived as a boy, or at least tried to, I was never good at it mind you. My grades were horrible, I had no friends, I participated in no social activities, I had very little energy. I hid in my room and moped around, attempted suicide twice, became an atheist and generally was a rotten person to everyone around me, including my parents.

Now I have a social life, I managed to graduate from college AND graduate school. My grades are now all above B average. I have a social life, my family relationships have been repaired, I am no longer suicidal, I have a career and am no longer a wage slave. I am working on finding religion again.

My path is certainly not typical, but if you did not know what it was that changed, wouldn’t most people think that what I did was a good thing?

From my view and everyone’s view around me, I am now a better, more caring individual. I was incapable of being this way before.

 

[TOP]

Men who live long enough to have testicular cancer are not likely transsexual. That was not the point of my post. My point was saying that treating this child with testosterone is likely to only make life more miserable.

Male of all ages get TC. I know of one 14 y.o. who is currently fighting for his life because of TC. Tim

 

[pathia]

Male of all ages get TC. I know of one 14 y.o. who is currently fighting for his life because of TC. Tim

It still is completely irrelevant. Men with removed testicles will only produce small amounts of testosterone, thus it is very obvious they need testosterone replacement.

Giving testosterone to someone who has fully functional testicles is completely pointless and contrary. Having TOO much testosterone is just as unhealthy as having too little, if even more dangerous because it can lead to prostate cancer and other male cancers asides from testicular.

 

[TOP]

It still is completely irrelevant. Men with removed testicles will only produce small amounts of testosterone, thus it is very obvious they need testosterone replacement.

Giving testosterone to someone who has fully functional testicles is completely pointless and contrary. Having TOO much testosterone is just as unhealthy as having too little, if even more dangerous because it can lead to prostate cancer and other male cancers asides from testicular.

Point taken. Tim

 

[Della]

There have been attempts to treat gay men and male-to-female transsexuals with Testosterone to ‘fix’ their feelings. It either made them more homosexually promiscuous (for the gay men), or more depressed (for the transsexuals) or did nothing at all. Hormone therapy to treat GID and SSA has never had a study show anything positive about it that I’m aware of.

I have no reason to doubt what you’re saying, but I don’t understand why this boy and others like hiim are treated with any horomones if they do nothing to the human body? Just confused not trying to start an argument.

Myself, I’m intersexed (old outdated term is hermaphrodite), and they first treated me with testosterone at sixteen, as I was initially raised as male.

What followed were some of the worst months of my life. I broke out in rashes, developed cysts, blisters and acne all over my body about three weeks later, and around the same time I started to cut myself daily and within two months was unconscious in the bathroom from overdosing on sleeping pills.

So…needless to say, take my opinion as somewhat biased, but I can say ‘I’ve been there’.

Which is why people in your position shouldn’t be treated as one sex or the other until it becomes obvious which way the person is going to go, naturally. Yes?

 

[pathia]

I have no reason to doubt what you’re saying, but I don’t understand why this boy and others like hiim are treated with any horomones if they do nothing to the human body? Just confused not trying to start an argument.

Which is why people in your position shouldn’t be treated as one sex or the other until it becomes obvious which way the person is going to go, naturally. Yes?

Hormones very much do things to your body. Without Testosterone or Estrogen you have all sorts of medical problems, weight issues (lack of and overabundence), metabolism problems, energy problems, osteoporosis (yes, men can get it too!).

That is not the church’s stance. The church believes that everyone should be of one or the other gender, and that doctors should make an assignment at birth with surgery and lifelong hormone therapy.

That was why I was forced to have hormones at age 16, I had been operated on as an infant, and my puberty was not progressing as the doctors thought it should, so they tried to ‘augment’ it to go faste.

 

[Dale_M]

The church believes that everyone should be of one or the other gender, and that doctors should make an assignment at birth with surgery and lifelong hormone therapy.

Does the Church really have a position on intersex infants? It seems I have read news stories that when doctors make absolute assignments of gender to ambiguous newborns the long term track record isn’t very good.

 

[tasso]

No, we shouldn’t condemn people for what they do, rather compassionately guide them back to Christ. The Church’s call for abstinence is not popular in our post-Freudian world, but that doesn’t make it wrong.

We should uphold the standards of the Church, and if people fail to always meet it (which seems inevitable in our fallen state) let them seek forgiveness. But let us always strive to be better than we are by nature.

All Jesus asked is to pick up our cross and to follow Him. The church is God’s instrument on earth but it also consists of people who can fail. The church has seen in the past consequences of wrong decisions being made, like appointing homosexuals as priests thinking, that as long as they don’t practice homosexuality they should not be prevented from the priesthood because priests are celibate. It was a fatal decision that caused a lot of problems for the church which I don’t want to discuss here. However, my point is, that these homosexual priests were very likely good Catholics. They did the ultimate in attempting to escape the temptations of being trapped in a body that didn’t permit them to express their natual inclinations. The result of this caused great damage to the image of the church because the sexual drive in us humans is often greater than what we can endure. Simply telling people to abstain just isn’t a good enough answer because it fails to provide a solution but rather provokes a danger that can lead to great harm, not only to the person himself, but also to others.

Admitted, there are people who can live happily without ever having sex in their live. Not every person has the same sexual drive and this makes it so difficult to judge other people. Only because oneself can live without sex does not mean the next person can, too. Therefore, unless we can provide a solution to the problem, I don’t think we have the right to simply demand abstinence. Such a demand is not only unpopular but also unreasonable.

When Jesus walked on earth, he demonstrated what man was able to do. Many teach, that Jesus did the things on earth as God, but the scriptures teach that Jesus demonstrated what we as humans are able to do. The greatest thing Jesus did was to forgive another. And He didn’t just do it because He was God. He did it as a human being. He did it as an example to us, that we should do likewise because it says even in the Lord’s prayer, that we are to forgive as we want to be forgiven by our Father in Heaven. This seems a small thing today compared to the mighty miracles Jesus performed. And yet, in His own time, the miracles were not outraging the Pharisees and Sadducees, they somehow remembered that God did do miracles in the past through people. It outraged them, that Jesus forgave sin: “Nobody can forgive sin except God” they said. However, Jesus proved them wrong, and He did this by healing a man on a Sabbath. But instead of recognising the power of God, this act of mercy outraged the Pharisees even more, to the point, that they even wanted to kill Him. Not the fact, that Jesus healed, but that He did it on a Sabbath.

What is my point in this? Simply this, that the solution is in the power of God which somehow has gotten lost in the church today. Jesus demonstrated what man can do. He did not just come on earth and throw about with sovereign powers as if He was carrying a magicians hat. Our faith has to be in the demonstration and power of the Holy Spirit. We have to show the world, that “He who is in us is greater than he who is in the world”. And we don’t do this by simply pointing the finger and telling people to stop sinning. In one of the prophets sin is being described as a sickness that needs to be healed.

The questions we need to ask is, how can we be God’s instrumetns on earth to pass on this healing to the needy in the world.

God bless

 

[pathia]

Does the Church really have a position on intersex infants? It seems I have read news stories that when doctors make absolute assignments of gender to ambiguous newborns the long term track record isn’t very good.

The answers I have gotten from apologists and priests all seem to show that the Church believes in the assignment being done at birth, or as close to birth as possible.

Found this on EWTN.com

Answer by Fr.Stephen F. Torraco on 04-30-2003:
Hermaphroditism is the condition in which both testicular and ovarian tissue exist in the same individual. True hermaphroditism is the actual coexistence of male and female glands or of gonads containing both male and female cells in an individual. Usually neither the male nor the female gonads are fully developed but are each present to such an extent that it is impossible to determine the sex of the individual. Perfect hermaphroditism is the occurrence of a person possessing all the generative organs, properly developed and functional at least to the extent of copulation, both male and female. Both true and perfect hermaphroditism are very rare indeed. Usually it is a matter of false hermaphroditism or pseudohermaphroditism, in which case the individual will be determined as a complete or predominate male or female but may have either secondary characteristics of the opposite sex or have rudimentary or limited organs of the opposite sex.

Medical and surgical procedures to correct hermaphroditism must be considered in the light of two points: 1) Everyone has a right to be a member of one sex or the other. God created humanity and its pattern of sexual distinction. When anomalies occur, there is danger that those who suffer these conditions will be psychologically and sexually abused. People need to be educated to understand that hermaphroditism is a matter of unfinished sexual development. The ultimate question of which sex is properly identifiable in a given case is left to the medical specialist. 2) Everyone has the right to have the inconsistencies of his sexual anatomy corrected by plastic surgery and/or pharmacological therapy. In true hermaphroditism, where sexual variables may be totally equivocal, the individual, or in the case of infants, the parents in consultation with the medical specialist, may decide the sex toward which the correction will be sought. In the relatively more common case of pseudohermaphroditism, where one sex is identifiable as predominately predetermined, the corrective measures must be in the direction of the predominate sex determined.

 

[Dale_M]

Fr.Stephen F. Torraco:

The ultimate question of which sex is properly identifiable in a given case is left to the medical specialist.

wow… I hope this is simply the opinion of Fr. Torraco.

Medical specialists certainly play an important role, and a tentative assignment can be made, but it seems that the only person who can really know the gender of an intersexed person is the person in question.

 

[pathia]

wow… I hope this is simply the opinion of Fr. Torraco.

Medical specialists certainly play an important role, and a tentative assignment can be made, but it seems that the only person who can really know the gender of an intersexed person is the person in question.

It’s the opinion I’ve gotten from just about every clergy member I’ve spoke to, the others just didn’t want to give me an answer, because they didn’t know.

As far as I can tell, I can’t get married, or even have my baptismal records modified, because since I had my intersexism dealt with past puberty, they just stamp me ‘transsexual’ and shoo me away. I haven’t felt welcome in church in over a decade.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

My sons like to read, are intelligent, and play violin. Do you suppose they should have had a sex change operation?

CDL

 

[Jennifer123]

It’s the opinion I’ve gotten from just about every clergy member I’ve spoke to, the others just didn’t want to give me an answer, because they didn’t know.

As far as I can tell, I can’t get married, or even have my baptismal records modified, because since I had my intersexism dealt with past puberty, they just stamp me ‘transsexual’ and shoo me away. I haven’t felt welcome in church in over a decade.

As for Fr. Terraco’s response, I don’t find anywhere where it states the alignment HAS to occur in infantcy.

“People need to be educated to understand that hermaphroditism is a matter of **unfinished ** sexual development. The ultimate question of which sex is properly identifiable in a given case is left to the medical specialist.”

It seems to me from the part I quoted above that it may take some time for a person to identify the proper sex. I also understood the part about “false hermaphroditism or pseudohermaphroditism” to mean that the proper sex is more easily identifiable and therefore can be properly aligned in infantcy.

That was my take on the helpful information you posted earlier. :twocents: I’m sorry if you feel you haven’t been properly addressed by persons within the Church. They are human and prone to error, although that doesn’t condone any hurtful treatment. These issues can be complex, and unfortunately take time to sort out. I hope you find good, solid orthodox information about your particular issue. Please know that Magisterial teachings of the Church are meant for us to live fulfilling and righteous lives.

 

[chicago]

It seems like a better solution would be to assist the young man in coming to terms with who he is as an individual.

While I would tend to agree, what if all he came comfortably to terms with was that he was really a she and had a passionate “need” to live fully (or as close as possible) as such? It would seem that this tends to be the verdict of transsexuals and those who treat them towards moving into a transition of life and physiology.

 

[pathia]

As for Fr. Terraco’s response, I don’t find anywhere where it states the alignment HAS to occur in infantcy.

“People need to be educated to understand that hermaphroditism is a matter of **unfinished ** sexual development. The ultimate question of which sex is properly identifiable in a given case is left to the medical specialist.”

It seems to me from the part I quoted above that it may take some time for a person to identify the proper sex. I also understood the part about “false hermaphroditism or pseudohermaphroditism” to mean that the proper sex is more easily identifiable and therefore can be properly aligned in infantcy.

That was my take on the helpful information you posted earlier. :twocents: I’m sorry if you feel you haven’t been properly addressed by persons within the Church. They are human and prone to error, although that doesn’t condone any hurtful treatment. These issues can be complex, and unfortunately take time to sort out. I hope you find good, solid orthodox information about your particular issue. Please know that Magisterial teachings of the Church are meant for us to live fulfilling and righteous lives.

No he doesn’t state it, however I am someone who rejected the initial assignment by medical professionals. The Church views me as a Transsexual, despite all the medical evidence and issues with my birth.

The only conclusion I can draw from that is that is okay to be assigned at birth, but not okay to disagree with the assignment, or something. I get so many conflicting opinions it is so utterly frustrating, I’m more or less hopelessly lost with the Church.

I have no idea how I am supposed to live. I am in love, but most of the time I’m told I must be celibate and leave the love of my life, we’ve been engaged for four years now, but thankfully he is patient.

When I was in highschool, I was viewed as homosexual/transsexual and I was put into ‘ex-gay’ therapy where I was given aversion therapy. This essentially means, they showed me pictures of men, but also combined it with someone bad, in my case I had startling noises blasted at me. They were not harmful, just startling. Then they would show me women and not scare me.

However, as a result I seem completely broken, I feel electrical jolts of fear when any male person touches me, including my very own fiance and family members. I flinch when my own father hugs me.

 

[Dale_M]

The Church views me as a Transsexual, despite all the medical evidence and issues with my birth.

I get so many conflicting opinions it is so utterly frustrating, I’m more or less hopelessly lost with the Church.

Transsexuality and intersex conditions are not the same. It seems very wrong to group you under the transsexual label when your medical diagnosis is well-documented.

I wish I knew where you could turn to either get a personal exemption or, better, a ruling which clearly separates intersex persons from transsexuals. I just don’t know the Church bureaucracy well enough. Nor do I know who would be sympathetic and provide you help along the way.

I have no idea how I am supposed to live. I am in love, but most of the time I’m told I must be celibate and leave the love of my life, we’ve been engaged for four years now, but thankfully he is patient.

He sounds like quite a guy!

However, as a result I seem completely broken, I feel electrical jolts of fear when any male person touches me, including my very own fiance and family members. I flinch when my own father hugs me.

I’m so sorry this was done to you. I’ll be praying for you, your fiance, and your family that these miseries will fade into the past.

 

[deb1]

Transsexuality and intersex conditions are not the same. It seems very wrong to group you under the transsexual label when your medical diagnosis is well-documented.

.

I agree, Pathia and the subject of the original post are two different issues. Pathia has a physical condition. This is different then a transsexual.

I hope that everything goes well for you, Pathia.

 

[tasso]

How does the mandate to pick up one’s cross and follow Christ factor into your theories?

I believe that this condition is not a cross to bear but that the boy and people like him do need healing. Are we Christians to demonstrate God’s love in Words only or is it not rather by the demonstration of God’s power? What did St Paul say: “My proclamation is not in persuasive words of human wisdom but in the demonstration of the Spirit and power.” I wish more people would heed his words and stop giving human advice. Anybody can easily say “just abstain” but it does not demonstrate anything of God’s love unless one backs these words up with a demonstration of God’s power by healing that person from those “sinful” desires. If one hasn’t a clue on how to administer healing to a person in need, I believe it would be wiser for them to remain quiet and pass this person on to somebody who can.

I’m sure when Jesus said to the Woman who washed his feed: “You are forgiven. Go and sin no more”, it wasn’t just words to bring her into bondage, but words that had the power to heal what was broken in her. Don’t you think so? And can you honestly say in all good conscience, that if you tell a person to abstain, your words will carry this power? If you can, fine, but if you can’t, it’s time to go back into the scriptures and meditate on God’s Word to gain understanding on how to retrieve the splinter in your brothers eye.

God bless,

 

[Jennifer123]

I’m sure when Jesus said to the Woman who washed his feed: “You are forgiven. Go and sin no more”, it wasn’t just words to bring her into bondage, but words that had the power to heal what was broken in her. Don’t you think so? And can you honestly say in all good conscience, that if you tell a person to abstain, your words will carry this power?

I see what you are saying, but I strongly object to the idea that telling someone to sin no more is the equivalent of putting them into bondage.
Sin IS bondage. How is telling someone that it isn’t a true compassionate act? How can I not in good conscience tell someone NOT to abstain, knowing the spritual, emotional, and physical dangers that could bring?