Boy Scouts to allow gay youths to join

[zab]

The Catholic Church obliges a vocal stance against homosexual advocacy where homosexuals intermingle in a parish setting when there is any ambiguity or neutrality about the issue of homosexuality being offered. To be silent is not acceptable. I’ve posted the links to the church documents that pertain the recommendations to bishops by the vatican with relation to the pastoral care of those with homosexual inclinations. It is clear that those with homosexual inclinations should be welcomed with open arms, but it is just as clear that the emphasis of the documents is to dispel any notion that one should give any ambivalent messages about homosexual acts or the normalization of homosexual activity in society.

The parish’s obligation to stand against homosexual acts in society may be grounds for losing its chartered BSA organizations.

This is true.

 

[gilliam]

The Catholic Church obliges a vocal stance against homosexual advocacy where homosexuals intermingle in a parish setting when there is any ambiguity or neutrality about the issue of homosexuality being offered. To be silent is not acceptable. I’ve posted the links to the church documents that pertain the recommendations to bishops by the vatican with relation to the pastoral care of those with homosexual inclinations. It is clear that those with homosexual inclinations should be welcomed with open arms, but it is just as clear that the emphasis of the documents is to dispel any notion that one should give any ambivalent messages about homosexual acts or the normalization of homosexual activity in society.

The parish’s obligation to stand against homosexual acts in society may be grounds for losing its chartered BSA organizations.

No nothing changes in this arena. The Church can still teach Church tenants to the Scouts. The Scouts cannot participate in Gay Pride or Anti-Gay Pride parades as Scouts, etc. Nothing changes.

There is too much Fear Uncertainty and Doubt being sewn in this group and frankly I wonder if it is intended to undermine the Catholic association with the BSA so as to promote other groups or for political purposes. Maybe I’m just being paranoid.

Anyway, nothing changes in this area as far as how the Catholic Church units operate. Religious Emblem programs still continue. Catholic Scout services still continue. Etc.

 

[hadulzo]

Since I have been a member for 50 years I was quite upset. Went to Adoration before Thursday’s troop meeting. The decision was not mentioned at the troop meeting. After reading the actual documents which most people have not done. scouting.org/sitecore/content/MembershipStandards/Resolution/FAQ.aspx It is pretty clear that the scout membership policy is identical to that of the Catholic Church.

 

[wynnejj]

If a gay boy complains to BSA National that his local Catholic troop is pushing social values that offend his views that his dads are not properly married and that it is a Catholics duty God to defend traditional marriage as a good citizen, would the BSA contest the church’s right to speak its views? OMG, the fear, the uncertainty, the doubt! Are the intentions of the author honorable? Stay tuned next week for the answer to this cliff hanger!

 

[CopticChristian]

Organisations such as this should not stop people from joining because of their sexual orientation, or even if they were sexually active. Allowing someone to join an organisation does not mean that you approve of their behaviour. Should the scouts bar any non-celibate heterosexual from joini?

Does our Church stop people from entering because of immoral behaviour, or even the basis that their inclination and urges may be to commit immoral behaviour that they haven’t actually committed yet? In that case you would bar any unmarried heterosexual from entering the Church as they too will have urges to commit carnal sins.

Organizations can allow whom they wish. Do these organizations expect a change in the status of behavior or the status quo?

No, the Church bars no one. Here is the difference. Coming to the Church is not a social decision. It is decision to repent=change your mind. It is a decision to not be conformed to the world and to be transformed by the renewal of the mind so that you can learn what the Catechism teaches…

We believe, our profession of Faith
Living the Sacramental Life
Life in Christ, moral living, becoming Holy as God is Holy
Prayer…

Now, based on the difference from organizations and the Church…your parallel denigrates the Church Christ founded, the Bride of Christ, the mystery hidden for all ages, the pillar and foundation of truth, the means by which gentiles become fellow heirs with Christ…

Would it be worth rethinking…

Organizations vs the OHCAC?

 

[Robert_Sock]

Organizations can allow whom they wish. Do these organizations expect a change in the status of behavior or the status quo?

No, the Church bars no one. Here is the difference. Coming to the Church is not a social decision. It is decision to repent=change your mind. It is a decision to not be conformed to the world and to be transformed by the renewal of the mind so that you can learn what the Catechism teaches…

We believe, our profession of Faith
Living the Sacramental Life
Life in Christ, moral living, becoming Holy as God is Holy
Prayer…

Now, based on the difference from organizations and the Church…your parallel denigrates the Church Christ founded, the Bride of Christ, the mystery hidden for all ages, the pillar and foundation of truth, the means by which gentiles become fellow heirs with Christ…

Would it be worth rethinking…

Organizations vs the OHCAC?

But we have to acknowledge that same-sex attraction, in and of itself, is not at all sinful. I also have to wounder how many homosexual Boy Scouts are sexually active?

And what about masturbation? Masturbation is something that the Boy Scouts ought to prohibit if homosexuals are prohibited! Of course it would be tough to actually know if someone is a masturbator, but still, it should be frowned upon by the Boy Scouts if they are to be consistent.

Just wait until masturbators come out of the closet. Their behavior, too, is sinful. Masturbation is mostly a forbidden topic in psychology. Masturbation is not acknowledged in our society because it is not on the agenda of ‘social engineers.’ This is a prime example of sexual inequality.

 

[Brendan]

See my note on behavior from the BSA General Counsel. Nothing changes in that area.

That’s what I was afraid of. I haven’t seen any prohibitions on tenting and restrooms similar to what exists with boys and girls in Ventures.

And that is what would be necessary to comply with a Catholic application of the principles involved. Thus it would seem that the principles would NOT be consistently applied.

 

[gracepoole]

Traits? I thought we were discussing homosexuality. If you speak of this particular issue as a “trait”, then yes I would have no problem ostracizing a pedophile, for example.

sigh Yes, I know how things work around here. Normally I wouldn’t use the word “trait” but of course unless I describe it with the word “sin,” the conversation couldn’t proceed. Guess it can’t proceed at any rate. I’ve no reasonable response to a comparison of homosexuality and pedophilia because it isn’t a reasoned comparison.

“Gays and lesbians want to be recognized.”

What does this actually mean?

Since to ‘be’ gay/lesbian means that one has sexual thoughts and attraction toward members of the same sex and/or that one has sexual relations with members of the same sex, doesn’t it mean that they want their sexual thoughts or actions to be recognized? That they want others to be thinking about or talking about their (the gays and lesbians’) sexual thoughts and actions?

Or does ‘gays and lesbians want to be recognized’ mean something else to you?

Why *should *we always be hearing about other people’s sex lives? I think the whole gay movement makes a major mistake in claiming people ‘hate’ them. No, most people simply don’t want to hear what they do in bed. Seriously, what’s next, a movement to make sure masturbators are ‘recognized?’ A movement to make sure masturbating youth are allowed in scouts? To make sure we all ‘recognize’ those whose sexual preference is for threesomes or orgies or dungeons and bdsm??? To make sure boys and adults who tell the whole world what they like to do with whips and chains and bondage can still be scouts and scout leaders??? There’s a long, long list of what people like to do sexually outside the mainstream. How many of these must we hear about and ‘recognize?’

Yes, I WOULD prefer a day when I don’t have to hear what people do sexually. So sue me. Ever heard of discretion? Or privacy?

You’re confusing two meanings of the word. There’s same sex attraction and there’s homosexual activity. I’m sure that’s been explained elsewhere in this thread.

• To have a feeling or struggle with a temptation is not a sin, and not necessarily a choice. To engage in illicit sexual actions is a choice and is immoral.

You don’t have to hear about others’ sexual exploits. That’s not what’s happening. At the core of this conversation, it’s apparent that aside from the fact that folks see homosexual activity as sinful, it also just makes them feel “icky.” Even the vague notion of it happening somewhere far removed from them seems to make people twitchy. I’m guessing these same people spend far, far less time getting twitchy over torture, or bullying, or the myriad of other sins committed each day that have far greater impact on others in a community.

Essentially, the BSA is a public organization and no Catholic is required to participate in it. Why is it such a problem for Catholics to simply leave and support others organizations? The BSA has disappointed you via its decision – so leave it.

 

[zab]

If a gay boy complains to BSA National that his local Catholic troop is pushing social values that offend his views that his dads are not properly married and that it is a Catholics duty God to defend traditional marriage as a good citizen, would the BSA contest the church’s right to speak its views? OMG, the fear, the uncertainty, the doubt! Are the intentions of the author honorable? Stay tuned next week for the answer to this cliff hanger!

I doubt that they would, however, why would such churches, Catholic and others, want to belong to an organization that no longer upholds their moral values? They may hold fast to the traditional code among their local troop, but they also show support for the National BSA by the uniform they wear as well as any money that they contribute to that organization.

 

[wynnejj]

I doubt that they would, however, why would such churches, Catholic and others, want to belong to an organization that no longer upholds their moral values? They may hold fast to the traditional code among their local troop, but they also show support for the National BSA by the uniform they wear as well as any money that they contribute to that organization.

I would suggest that the essence of the scenario that I put forward is not a far-fetched concern. It would be instructive of the metal of the Boy Scouts organization’s sense of honour to see how this would play out. I’m not inclined to believe that the executive committee is just a bunch of political hacks. I think they are trying hard to balance being non-sectarian and still respect the differences of various religious organizations, and dealing with the church militant position of the Catholic church and other like-minded religious organizations when it comes to defence of traditional marriage values in the training of young men. The BSA organizations adherence to their principles of “clean” of thought, word and deed is distinctly different between various religious organizations and “reverent”, that is, respectful to the religious distinctions of its varying constituents in the context of their local troops is difficult to administer with a “one size fits all” policy. If they do a “you must be neutral” in your presentation on certain issues within the context of your parish troop, then they are in conflict with the Catholic mission.

I have to agree with those who would assert that the BSA has NOT so far shown that they are not in line with their traditional moral values. In this respect, I agree with those who support the changed policy on unjust discrimination grounds. So far, they have remedied the problem of scout leaders for expelling a boy for stating that he has same sex attraction. Even if he says he doesn’t understand why society doesn’t accept gay marriage, I would not have a problem with that simple honest statement of belief.

The cost comes when the scout leaders do their duty to God to proclaim God’s Word in its integrity in the context of the religious organization that sponsors them and this gets contested on the grounds of “social advocacy”. Also, if the individual becomes a disruptive nuisance after fair warning, I would hope that scout leaders could say that the nuisance has gone way past the “sexual orientation or preference alone” criteria.

If it gets handled correctly – this and other challenges – then I’m glad the decision went the way it did and I see no real conflict if one views “morally straight” as strictly a local troops prerogative in its definition.

 

[chosen_people]

**Nope: not the right decision, first responder. Yes, easy to understand how many people, but not all, who are hanging around Boy Scouts, would think so.

Unfortunately, our culture is not only being destroyed by deliberated demoralization coming intentionally from Hollywood which is NOT extended to the TRADITIONAL morality of the majority of it’s secular co-religionist Jews… but by the ridiculous naivete of the target population. It’s like shooting fish in a barrel. These* supremely influential people do not care about traditional Jewish morality regarding homosexuality ***but are perfectly fulfilled by factually and effectively taking down the Gentile culture. It is their goal. Listen to Brother Nathanael on youtube on this topic and many others. He knows; see why - go look him up.

So: Red Light here; too late for yellow. Join another organization. The Girl Scouts have an alternative, and the agenda for the Girl Scouts, which the UN is in on, is just as deliberately amoral and disintegrating as is the agenda for the co-agers in the Boy Scouts.

Last night I wrote about chemicals. NOT EVERY SINGLE young person is affected - those who are avoiding garbage in food, drink filtered water, etc. are OK - I see them, too. But many many are effeminate - and it is NOT NOT NOT by accident.

Men who are not weakened are a threat. Families protect individuals, and they interfere with control.

E V E R Y T H I N G, without exception, is about CONTROL. Things are MUCH more cleverly demoniac than dumbed down Americans understand. Europeans are more aware; they consciously understand the long-standing agenda; they have no illusions. We are known all over the world for our NAIVETE.

Don’t those hangers-on to the Boy Scouts salivate at the prospect of even just looking, and they know how to target, and take a long time to groom their victims.

Our culture is being destroyed in order to control it. You had better believe Israel is NOT NOT NOT being acculturatred this way. And no, Israel per se is not the enemy.

Check out Brother Nathanael; he knows the breadth and depth of influential parties associated with Judaism which are looked at with as much alarm by religious Jewish people, as others who are not Jewish, but aware of what the agenda for the United States is.

Yes; this is all related very very much to the Boy Scouts. Unless you understand the extent to which things are controlled, you know nothing.

Well as someone who admires the ideas expounded by Brother Nathanael you now know that the root of all evil in the world, the reason bad things happen, every detrimental effect on the culture, the wealth or the health of society, every conspiracy and every war can be traced back to the same source: “the Jews”. Now you should know that we didn’t actually invent homosexuality though as Brother Nathanael will explain, we were the first to be able to control and utilize it for the destruction of Christian society. The Boy Scouts are of course only a small stepping stone in our quest for world dominion. :I could go on but I have to get back to the Council of the Elders of Zion meeting shrug:

 

[gracepoole]

Well as someone who admires the ideas expounded by Brother Nathanael you now know that the root of all evil in the world, the reason bad things happen, every detrimental effect on the culture, the wealth or the health of society, every conspiracy and every war can be traced back to the same source: “the Jews”. Now you should know that we didn’t actually invent homosexuality though as Brother Nathanael will explain, we were the first to be able to control and utilize it for the destruction of Christian society. The Boy Scouts are of course only a small stepping stone in our quest for world dominion. :I could go on but I have to get back to the Council of the Elders of Zion meeting shrug:

Thanks for the levity! It’s frightening that some people actually accept centuries old propaganda about Jews as fact. Frightening and dangerous.

 

[gilliam]

Thoughts for Catholics impacted by the Boy Scouts of America membership policies

canonlawblog.wordpress.com/2013/05/26/thoughts-for-catholics-impacted-by-the-boy-scouts-of-america-membership-policies/

 

[Brendan]

No nothing changes in this arena. The Church can still teach Church tenants to the Scouts. The Scouts cannot participate in Gay Pride or Anti-Gay Pride parades as Scouts, etc. Nothing changes…

And this is why, more than anything, our parish is looking at other organizations.

Our Troop has a ‘sister troop’ that’s American Heritage Girls. My daughters are in it, as are the sisters of most of my Scouts.

Our ‘sister’ AHG troop has participated in pro-life events, pro-marriage events, lIfe chains etc… as a Troop, in uniform.

They are at those events passing out flyers, assisting the organizers, and in general, being a very visible witness to life and marriage and defense of the unborn.

But having the BSA Troop, chartered by the same organization doing the same things, is a big NO NO.

The men are there, as KofC, the girls and moms are there, as AHG, but the boys are there, not as a group, but as individuals.

That needs to change, and, as you stated, it won’t be as a BSA Troop.

 

[gracepoole]

And this is why, more than anything, our parish is looking at other organizations.

Our Troop has a ‘sister troop’ that’s American Heritage Girls. My daughters are in it, as are the sisters of most of my Scouts.

Our ‘sister’ AHG troop has participated in pro-life events, pro-marriage events, lIfe chains etc… as a Troop, in uniform.

They are at those events passing out flyers, assisting the organizers, and in general, being a very visible witness to life and marriage and defense of the unborn.

But having the BSA Troop, chartered by the same organization doing the same things, is a big NO NO.

The men are there, as KofC, the girls and moms are there, as AHG, but the boys are there, not as a group, but as individuals.

That needs to change, and, as you stated, it won’t be as a BSA Troop.

Little Flowers Girls’ Club and Blue Knights Boys’ Club are also great options. eccehomopress.com/index.htm

 

[Brendan]

Little Flowers Girls’ Club and Blue Knights Boys’ Club are also great options. eccehomopress.com/index.htm

Great programs. My girls were in Little Flowers for awhile. The programs you mentioned don’t have the camping and outdoors experiences. And the badge work is strictly Faith based ( no Swimming, Personal Mgmt or Emergency Preparedness, etc Badges). I feel that is important for a well rounded Catholic youth.

We have a very strong Faith component in our Troop(s), including regular Rosary and Adoration, and Mass at camp. But if an activity doesn’t involve camping, hiking and occasional trips to the lake and rifle range, my boys won’t be interested (nor my girls, for that matter)

We’re big on programs that will teach them BOTH about the lives of saints AND how to build a snow shelter and sleep in it without freezing

 

[holyrood]

You don’t have to hear about others’ sexual exploits. That’s not what’s happening. At the core of this conversation, it’s apparent that aside from the fact that folks see homosexual activity as sinful, it also just makes them feel “icky.” Even the vague notion of it happening somewhere far removed from them seems to make people twitchy. I’m guessing these same people spend far, far less time getting twitchy over torture, or bullying, or the myriad of other sins committed each day that have far greater impact on others in a community.

Sorry, but when someone tells me, “I’m gay,” I’ve just learned an intimate detail I didn’t ask to know As adults, we know what it means when someone says, “I masturbate.” “I play with whips and chains.” “I like to have sex with other men.” It gives us information we didn’t want or need. So yes, it is happening.

And you’re setting up strawmen and changing the subject, to move on to deciding how anyone here is affected by torture, bullying, etc.

Essentially, the BSA is a public organization and no Catholic is required to participate in it. Why is it such a problem for Catholics to simply leave and support others organizations? The BSA has disappointed you via its decision – so leave it.

Because the Boy Scouts stood for something to begin with. Why is it such a problem for ‘gay boys’ or gay men who want to be leaders in a boys’ group to simply leave and support other organizations? They are welcome to start their own.

But the fact is, we know what’s going to happen if Christians simply leave, as you suggest, and set up another group that supports what they believe. Within a few years, there will be a ‘gay boy’ who wants to join that troop, and we’ll start the process all over again about how he has a ‘right’ to join and maybe Christians can simply go elsewhere. No, those who want a boys organization that accepts homosexuality as normal and healthy can set up such an organization. Perhaps they know, deep down, that they have no hope of building such a group up into something nation- or world-wide, though, which is why they feel the need to commandeer the Scouts.

 

[gracepoole]

Great programs. My girls were in Little Flowers for awhile. The programs you mentioned don’t have the camping and outdoors experiences. And the badge work is strictly Faith based ( no Swimming, Personal Mgmt or Emergency Preparedness, etc Badges). I feel that is important for a well rounded Catholic youth.

We have a very strong Faith component in our Troop(s), including regular Rosary and Adoration, and Mass at camp. But if an activity doesn’t involve camping, hiking and occasional trips to the lake and rifle range, my boys won’t be interested (nor my girls, for that matter)

We’re big on programs that will teach them BOTH about the lives of saints AND how to build a snow shelter and sleep in it without freezing

Love it!

 

[gracepoole]

Sorry, but when someone tells me, “I’m gay,” I’ve just learned an intimate detail I didn’t ask to know As adults, we know what it means when someone says, “I masturbate.” “I play with whips and chains.” “I like to have sex with other men.” It gives us information we didn’t want or need. So yes, it is happening.

So when someone tells you, “I’m not gay,” is this too much information?

Because the Boy Scouts stood for something to begin with. Why is it such a problem for ‘gay boys’ or gay men who want to be leaders in a boys’ group to simply leave and support other organizations? They are welcome to start their own.

But the fact is, we know what’s going to happen if Christians simply leave, as you suggest, and set up another group that supports what they believe. Within a few years, there will be a ‘gay boy’ who wants to join that troop, and we’ll start the process all over again about how he has a ‘right’ to join and maybe Christians can simply go elsewhere. No, those who want a boys organization that accepts homosexuality as normal and healthy can set up such an organization. Perhaps they know, deep down, that they have no hope of building such a group up into something nation- or world-wide, though, which is why they feel the need to commandeer the Scouts.

There’s that slippery slope again. We don’t really know what’s going to happen – we can only speculate. But leaving is always a legitimate option. Many other groups have been referenced here that would meet the needs of Catholic youths. The BSA willingly voted to amend its policy (conspiracy theories about it being “forced” into this vote by a “gay agenda” aside, please, since there’s no demonstrable evidence for such claims). It seems the BSA determined what it wants to “stand for.” And again, no one is forced to join.

 

[Sonic]

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