Boy Scouts to allow gay youths to join

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buffalo said:
Is hate always a bad thing?
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Hate to the degree described in the example you provided? Absolutely. I’ll say it again: we should never make policies based on how those who hate (to the point of beating and/or killing those who are hated) might respond to such policies.
 
gracepoole said:
Hate to the degree described in the example you provided? Absolutely. I’ll say it again: we should never make policies based on how those who hate (to the point of beating and/or killing those who are hated) might respond to such policies.
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I hate murder. By your logic we should not have a law against it.
 
“Hate to the degree described in the example you provided? Absolutely. I’ll say it again: we should never make policies based on how those who hate (to the point of beating and/or killing those who are hated) might respond to such policies.”
buffalo said:
I hate murder. By your logic we should not have a law against it.
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I really don’t get your conclusion here or how it follows from what I’ve said. Even for those who view homosexual acts as sinful, surely they can’t advocate for beating and killing these “sinners”…I hope??
 
gracepoole said:
“Hate to the degree described in the example you provided? Absolutely. I’ll say it again: we should never make policies based on how those who hate (to the point of beating and/or killing those who are hated) might respond to such policies.”

I really don’t get your conclusion here or how it follows from what I’ve said. Even for those who view homosexual acts as sinful, surely they can’t advocate for beating and killing these “sinners”…I hope??
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you – we should never make policies based on how those who hate (to the point of beating and/or killing those who are hated) might respond to such policies."

Clarify this.
 
gracepoole said:
A debate about homosexuality being a biological consequent or a choice is fruitless here – I know how the race comparison plays out in these circles. But I would suggest that speaking with actual gays and lesbians might offer a much more nuanced approach to this part of the topic.

Yes, majorities can indeed make wrongheaded decisions. Seems like the BSA’s decision is righting at least one of these wrongs.
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So, a gay boy joins the scouts and after a while, leaves.

After today, a gay boy joins the scouts and after a while, leaves.

What wrong was being righted?

Ed
 
gracepoole said:
“Wait – we should cater to homophobes? That’s like claiming that affirmative action shouldn’t be in place because it infuriates closet racists. Who cares? These people aren’t using logic to begin with.”

And you’ve missed the point of my comparison. Society shouldn’t determine laws based on how these laws may or may not infuriate those who hate.
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Why the emotion pandering? The guy who puts a gun to another guy’s head and demands “You’re money or your life.” Is he hating? I would say so. And all the black on black shootings in Detroit? I lived there until 2003 and know it like the back of my hand. Stop with the emotion and just provide facts instead of conjuring up a hate-filled world. I’ve never hated anybody. Yes, I’ve gotten angry with people but that’s it.

Peace,
Ed
 
gracepoole said:
“Less than a week ago, we were stunned by the brutal killing of 32-year-old Mark Carson, a gay man shot dead in New York City on the street in an alleged hate crime by a man who hurled anti-gay slurs. Carson appeared to be killed simply because of the gunman’s twisted beliefs about gay men. The killing followed a wave of similar attacks (and was followed by still others) that showed a rise in violence by individuals who think gay adults are dangerous, deviant and disgusting. To then have the Boy Scouts of America establish a new policy by the end of the same week which further validated the beliefs of these attackers is exceeding cruel. And it’s far from any kind of progress.”

Wait – we should cater to homophobes? That’s like claiming that affirmative action shouldn’t be in place because it infuriates closet racists. Who cares? These people aren’t using logic to begin with.
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buffalo said:
you – we should never make policies based on how those who hate (to the point of beating and/or killing those who are hated) might respond to such policies."

Clarify this.
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Regardless of the differences we might have when defining homophobia, I hope we can agree that there really are homophobes who seek the physical destruction of homosexuals. This immorality is clearly not in line with the Church’s teachings. And no policies should be created to cater to true homophobes who are immoral. We could disagree on specific definitions of racism and sexism, but we know that there are racists and sexists who would be identified as such by us both. And their immorality should never be our priority when making policy.
 
gracepoole said:
What does the current medical community claim?

What would be the motivation for the APA and others to deny homosexuality as a perversion?
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Politics.

amazon.com/Homosexuality-American-Psychiatry-Politics-Diagnosis/dp/0691028370

“However, groups like Human Rights Campaign (HRC) are urging supporters to send tens of thousands of letters to Boy Scout councils nationwide to lift the ban on gay youth joining scouts. “Please, help end this harmful, archaic policy,” HRC said.”

Peace,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
Why the emotion pandering? The guy who puts a gun to another guy’s head and demands “You’re money or your life.” Is he hating? I would say so. And all the black on black shootings in Detroit? I lived there until 2003 and know it like the back of my hand. Stop with the emotion and just provide facts instead of conjuring up a hate-filled world. I’ve never hated anybody. Yes, I’ve gotten angry with people but that’s it.

Peace,
Ed
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Ed, please see my last response to Buffalo. I’m not focusing on emotion – I’m responding to an article that was posted earlier in the thread.
 
gracepoole said:
Regardless of the differences we might have when defining homophobia, I hope we can agree that there really are homophobes who seek the physical destruction of homosexuals. This immorality is clearly not in line with the Church’s teachings. And no policies should be created to cater to true homophobes who are immoral. We could disagree on specific definitions of racism and sexism, but we know that there are racists and sexists who would be identified as such by us both. And their immorality should never be our priority when making policy.
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Homosexuality and HOPE is the name of the article. I have not seen anyone post that we should somehow dispose of homosexuals.

I think homophobes as you describe are rare in reality. What they are expressing in the wrong way is the acting out that many homosexuals display.
 
gracepoole said:
Ed, please see my last response to Buffalo. I’m not focusing on emotion – I’m responding to an article that was posted earlier in the thread.
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Perhaps you could direct me to a post of yours that was not emotional.

Please state a positive logical post for homosexual acts.
 
buffalo said:
Homosexuality and HOPE is the name of the article. I have not seen anyone post that we should somehow dispose of homosexuals.

I think homophobes as you describe are rare in reality. What they are expressing in the wrong way is the acting out that many homosexuals display.
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**PLEASE **reread the content you posted earlier:

"“Less than a week ago, we were stunned by the brutal killing of 32-year-old Mark Carson, a gay man shot dead in New York City on the street in an alleged hate crime by a man who hurled anti-gay slurs. Carson appeared to be killed simply because of the gunman’s twisted beliefs about gay men. The killing followed a wave of similar attacks (and was followed by still others) that showed a rise in violence by individuals who think gay adults are dangerous, deviant and disgusting. To then have the Boy Scouts of America establish a new policy by the end of the same week which further validated the beliefs of these attackers is exceeding cruel. And it’s far from any kind of progress.”

The text above claims that in the midst of truly homophobic actions (in which a gay man was murdered), the BSA’s decision to amend its policy is “exceedingly cruel” and doesn’t help matters. And I’m stating – again – that we should never prioritize the responses of immoral and illogical freaks (true homophobes, true racists, etc.) when making policy. Consider what would have happened if in the 19th-century, the U.S. had determined that too many slave-owners would have been upset by emancipation and refused it so as not to further inflame them.
 
Back to the topic. There were gay scouts in the past and they were “allowed” to join. What does this have to do with anything?

Peace,
Ed
 
gracepoole said:
**PLEASE **reread the content you posted earlier:

"“Less than a week ago, we were stunned by the brutal killing of 32-year-old Mark Carson, a gay man shot dead in New York City on the street in an alleged hate crime by a man who hurled anti-gay slurs. Carson appeared to be killed simply because of the gunman’s twisted beliefs about gay men. The killing followed a wave of similar attacks (and was followed by still others) that showed a rise in violence by individuals who think gay adults are dangerous, deviant and disgusting. To then have the Boy Scouts of America establish a new policy by the end of the same week which further validated the beliefs of these attackers is exceeding cruel. And it’s far from any kind of progress.”

The text above claims that in the midst of truly homophobic actions (in which a gay man was murdered), the BSA’s decision to amend its policy is “exceedingly cruel” and doesn’t help matters. And I’m stating – again – that we should never prioritize the responses of immoral and illogical freaks (true homophobes, true racists, etc.) when making policy. Consider what would have happened if in the 19th-century, the U.S. had determined that too many slave-owners would have been upset by emancipation and refused it so as not to further inflame them.
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Everyday we see murders of people because they are_______________ fill in the blank. Why single this one out?

What you are admitting though is you do hate evil. So we can agree on that.
 
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