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Xantippe
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I strongly suspect 1ke has that all figured out…now.
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Kelfa28
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1ke
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Don’t beat around the bush. Be clear about your goals and expectations. No “hoping” he gets the idea.
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Catholic1954
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Send him on his way. He knows what he wants (marriage & family now) and you know what you want (more life experience & career then marriage & family) these are not the same goals and waiting around to see if one of changes their mind is not fair to either.
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SuperLuigi
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That’s what I figured. Hopefully, it works out like that, but it’s important that you communicate how you feel to him.
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ThyKingdomCome
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Well, the reason for a person of faith date is to find a spouse, so on the face of it, I would say that it is great that he isn’t just messing around. Of course, it is possible that he also means that he thinks that you are the one, and if this is true, and if you don’t feel the same way, then there may be an incompatibility.
Personal story - when I was 20, I made a decision to date to find a husband. I wasn’t intending to get married immediately, but I did recognize that that was the reason for dating, and I realized that dating someone who was incompatible with marriage to me would be a waste of time. So I decided that if I was dating someone and I found out something about them that made me know we wouldn’t make a good marriage fit, I would stop dating him at that point. It just so happened that the first guy I dated after making that decision turned out to be the man I married, and it happened that we started dating while I was 20, and we got married when I was 24. I didn’t have goals that didn’t fit with being married though, so there wasn’t an issue of “not being able to accomplish my goals” if I got married too soon.
I did NOT tell my then “guy I’m seeing” that I was sizing him up for marriage, at least not right away, and I think it is probably uncommon for people to share that information early on in a relationship. So the question is, why is he telling you now? Is it that he thinks you are the one? Is it that he wants to know if you view dating the same way he does? Is it that he senses that you and he might not be on the same page?
Definitely be honest with him about what you are and aren’t ready for. He is being very clear with you about his goals, so that is a good sign that you should be able to do the same.
Personal story - when I was 20, I made a decision to date to find a husband. I wasn’t intending to get married immediately, but I did recognize that that was the reason for dating, and I realized that dating someone who was incompatible with marriage to me would be a waste of time. So I decided that if I was dating someone and I found out something about them that made me know we wouldn’t make a good marriage fit, I would stop dating him at that point. It just so happened that the first guy I dated after making that decision turned out to be the man I married, and it happened that we started dating while I was 20, and we got married when I was 24. I didn’t have goals that didn’t fit with being married though, so there wasn’t an issue of “not being able to accomplish my goals” if I got married too soon.
I did NOT tell my then “guy I’m seeing” that I was sizing him up for marriage, at least not right away, and I think it is probably uncommon for people to share that information early on in a relationship. So the question is, why is he telling you now? Is it that he thinks you are the one? Is it that he wants to know if you view dating the same way he does? Is it that he senses that you and he might not be on the same page?
Definitely be honest with him about what you are and aren’t ready for. He is being very clear with you about his goals, so that is a good sign that you should be able to do the same.
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BlueEyedLady
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It sounds like you’re making a lot of assumptions about him wanting to marry you but you aren’t doing a lot of talking about it. If you can’t talk about marriage, you aren’t ready for it. Period.
But I did want to touch on what you said here. My family did not want me to get married until I had at least a Master’s degree. I was the first person in my family to even go to college, and they had very high hopes for me. They told me that if I got married I would be trading in my bright future to be barefoot and pregnant in a small town somewhere and the best I would be able to hope for is a job managing a gas station.
I met my husband when I was 21, and he was finishing up his Master’s degree in accounting. We moved in together after a year because we were spending all of our time together anyway and I was still working on my undergrad degrees, so it was expensive to have two apartments. At this point, he was working at a major firm. My family loved him, and they were very supportive of us living together. But when he gave me a ring, everyone got very nervous that he was going to pull me away from the path they (and I) had planned for my life.
That didn’t happen. My husband knew my goals from date 1. He knew before we even got serious what my plans were, and since he was done with school and could work in any city, he was on board with it.
I cannot begin to describe the tremendous practical advantage that marrying young gave us. Being married when most people were trying to find small apartments in bad neighborhoods close to their 3 part time jobs in hopes of being able to find the time and money for grad school was wonderful. We were able to easily move out of state afford a nice place in a fun neighborhood. I was able to go to law school and actually focus completely on school, and between my scholarships and what we pay out of pocket, I’m taking out very few loans, especially compared to my peers who are staring down 6 figure debt. We’re even talking about me pursuing a PhD after this because it would be easier to have a family with mom working in academia than as an attorney. It’s just a thought now, but it’s a thought that I can really only have because I married young.
When he was diagnosed with cancer, I was able to take time off school, and work full time to support us while he cut back to working from home when he could. Because of that, we were able to stay on top of his medical bills far better than virtually any single person his age would have been able to and our finances recovered pretty quickly.
I don’t know where my family got the idea that coming from a rural, lower class background (well below the poverty line for most of my childhood), I would be in a much worse position to achieve my goals if i got married than if I was on my own, but they were dead wrong.
It’s well known that married households have a very real socioeconomic advantage. For some reason though, people don’t realize, or don’t want to acknowledge, that advantage holds true for young adults just as well as it does for the over 30 crowd. As long as you know what it is you want in life, marriage doesn’t have to conflict with it. Just be upfront from the beginning with anyone you date. You may find that you end up helping each other reach your dreams.
I think the boomers convinced us that it was either marriage, or an exciting life of travel, wine, and professional success. They never considered that we could have both, or that professional success is easier to achieve with two incomes and someone who loves you cheering you on.
Just something to keep in mind.
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white_sheep
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Getting a job is not the beginning of your life. Starting a family would be a much better marker.
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ToeInTheWater
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To the OP: It seems you and your boyfriend have different goals for dating. If you’re not ready to discern marriage yet and he is, then it does seem that this is not a good match.
Anyway, I have noticed some posters here essentially challenging the OP’s stance that she is not ready for marriage. Note that per most demographics about the average age for marriage, and the divorce statistics for those who marry under age 25, she may very well be correct. I am not against early marriage per se, but I certainly don’t think pressuring everyone to throw caution to the wind and marry early is fair, either.
Also, I think what no one has pointed out yet, is that as for most people marriage still implies monogamy, many people defer marriage not just for financial reasons, but because they do not feel ready to commit to monogamy. Many around the OPs’ age aren’t even ready to commit to a boyfriend or girlfriend, but prefer to remain “single” and rely on random hookups to sate their sexual needs.
And although “open marriage” actually has become more socially acceptable, obviously it is not an option for practicing Catholics.
Anyway, I have noticed some posters here essentially challenging the OP’s stance that she is not ready for marriage. Note that per most demographics about the average age for marriage, and the divorce statistics for those who marry under age 25, she may very well be correct. I am not against early marriage per se, but I certainly don’t think pressuring everyone to throw caution to the wind and marry early is fair, either.
Also, I think what no one has pointed out yet, is that as for most people marriage still implies monogamy, many people defer marriage not just for financial reasons, but because they do not feel ready to commit to monogamy. Many around the OPs’ age aren’t even ready to commit to a boyfriend or girlfriend, but prefer to remain “single” and rely on random hookups to sate their sexual needs.
And although “open marriage” actually has become more socially acceptable, obviously it is not an option for practicing Catholics.
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12345678
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I have not doubt she knows… but this is read by a large public that may or may not know. And remarriage after divorce without annulment is a hot topic, and one that people don’t always understand clearly. I thought it was worth the clarificationGiven her posting history?
Yes…yes, she does.
.Better be clear than not.
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ToeInTheWater
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Yep, I personally see a lot of posters who are “sloppy” for lack of a better word about this issue when they give advice. I’ve often seen people in troubled marriages being advised to consider “separation, divorce, and annulment”, as if annulment is guaranteed in cases of divorce, which further confirms non-Catholics perceptions about annulment as “Catholic divorce”, or perceptions that the tribunals (and by extension, the whole Church) is corrupt and just rubber-stamps annulments as long as they’re paid to do so, and/or the petitioners have power and influence.I have not doubt she knows… but this is read by a large public that may or may not know. And remarriage after divorce without annulment is a hot topic, and one that people don’t always understand clearly. I thought it was worth the clarification
Better be clear than not.
Now, I know that many of those posters do NOT actually believe this, and sometimes it’s awkward to place a disclaimer that “of course, annulment is not guaranteed but it seems you’d have a good case for it”, but I do think it can cause confusion and even scandal.
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EasterJoy
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Knowing 1ke, there was an automatic presumption that a Catholic does not get on a courtship track with people that he or she does not know are free to marry. One does not become the steady girlfriend of someone else’s husband, and “ignorance” is not an excuse. You either know they’re free to marry or you don’t even think about marrying them.
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EasterJoy
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In my experience and barring a deployment or a like period of enforced separation, couples who state a firm intention to marry usually either do it within 18 months at the most or else they break up. Maybe they get back together later, but people do not wait that long for marriage without getting into a quasi-marital situation that morality precludes.(IOW: they either marry or they move in together or essentially move in together.)
First of all, you are in school now and have made a commitment to yourself to finish your education and to embark on a career that will be useful in helping to support your family. There is no reason that you should not say up front with the young men you socialize with that you have no intention of getting on a path towards marriage until you have gotten to Point X in your life. That might be graduation or a certain point prior to graduation, that might be a certain point in your career, it might be a certain age. The main thing is to be very upfront and firm about it.
Do not assume you’re going to find a guy who wants to chastely make you his beloved for three years before marrying you. That can happen: for instance, one of you may have things in life that preclude marriage and intervene to make chastity less difficult than for couples who have an unlimited amount of time to socialize, such as a deployment or an internship somewhere far away. Otherwise, it is going to be too frustrating to go on for that long. This is simply what I have seen over the years.
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EasterJoy
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It is a bit patronizing to assume that. There is nothing wrong with someone old enough to support a family courting with the idea that the process will lead to marriage in a relatively short amount of time. It is not unusual for young men to have an extended family structure that is fully prepared to help him start a family simultaneously with finishing his professional training. (I mean that it is hardly unknown for men in dental school or finishing up study on a trade to be married before they finish, for example.) If that is what he wants, that is legitimate, too.
Don’t let him tell you that you’re waiting too long, and don’t tell him that you know he is looking to marry too early. If he says he wants to marry soon, believe him and let him go. If he goes out looking and finds no one until time has passed and you are available, he can come back at that time and you’ll both be better with it.
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EasterJoy
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Whatever 1ke is, sloppy on the topic of marriage is not it. I can guarantee that she made the assumption that a Catholic does not date people who are not known to be free to marry. Socialize, OK, as someone would socialize with a priest, but NOT dating. Period.
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ToeInTheWater
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Actually, I know that, and you know that. based on having “known” her for a while and read her other posts regarding canon law, marriage, and annulment.
However, we cannot assume that everyone else has kept track of 1ke’s posts. Many non-Catholics post here, many more lurk here, and I’m sure many would take that post as an assumption that it’s okay to date any divorced person, whether an annulment is granted or not.
Indeed, many apologists including the priestly ones has stated that there is no need to apply for an annulment UNLESS one wishes to remarry. Maybe they are speaking of someone who isn’t dating anyone yet but wants to find out if they are eligible to. But in reality, it seems many annulment petitions are filed by those who have already found a potential spouse, or have even civilly married that spouse already.
So I don’t think it really is that clear among Catholics if dating a divorced person is okay or not. I think many think “as long as I don’t actually have sex I am not sinning, and IF this becomes serious then I will request the annulment”.
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EasterJoy
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It was a clarification worth making, but we ought to make it with the clear admission that we know 1ke is not even remotely sloppy on the topic of divorce and remarriage. (At all. As in: Zero sloppiness.) That is all I meant.
Yes, you are right that some Catholics do not see anything wrong with being the romantic interest and even the very public romantic interest of someone the Church would deem to be married to someone else until very carefully proven otherwise. This is a scandal against marriage, since it implies that Catholics are not concerned about whether or not they strike up romances with other people’s spouses, “as long as I don’t actually have sex.” That bar is far too low to for either the respect due to marriage, the respect due to chastity, or the respect due to the natural force of human passions. It is like wading through 10 inches of flood water. It looks safe, but it regularly sweeps people off their feet before they know it. The scandal is in this: When other people see you do it, they’re going to do it. Maybe you know how to see the currents in flood water so as to stay only in quiet waters, but the tragedies are many concerning those who don’t. When Catholics do not do as the prudent person does, that gives scandal (which does not mean provides fodder for gossip but which means gives an example not fitting the example the holy ones ought to give the world that can only see exterior acts and not interior reasoning.)
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Xantippe
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ToeInTheWater
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This seems reasonable to me, BUT I think some apologists are reluctant to advise people to actively seek annulments, because they are sensitive to the accusations that the annulment process is so abused, that practically, it might as well be Catholic Divorce.
I have certainly read many such accusations from Orthodox posters, that the Orthodox approach to allow for two divorces, but no more, is more “honest” and “pastoral” than the Catholic approach.
Anyway I guess this off-topic to the OP’s post, so I’ll stop here.
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Xantippe
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We’re way off topic, but heck if I know why 2 divorces and a third marriage is “honest” and “pastoral” whereas 3 divorces and a fourth remarriage is over the line.
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