Brazil Church condemns abortion of twins

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Because many bishops are total weaklings and are spineless in upholding true Catholic Teachings. I’m tired of these liberal, push over bishops. Arrgh.

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee.
Blessed art Thou among women,
And blessed is the Fruit of Thine Womb, Jesus.

Holy Mary, Mother of God,
Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

 

[jay29]

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee.
Blessed art Thou among women,
And blessed is the Fruit of Thine Womb, Jesus.

Holy Mary, Mother of God,
Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

I’m glad you agree with me.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I’m glad you agree with me.

Jay29, whether or not I agree with you on this point is totally irrelevant. Jesus asks that we not insult and tear down the consecrated…especially priests and bishops. Even if they are wrong, we are ALWAYS to act respectfully to them and about them. And we are asked by Him to always say an Hail Mary when we say or hear something derogatory about them.

Jay, I reallize that to be respectful in all words and conducts toward someone who is tearing down our morality and Christ’s Church is difficult at best. But we must try if we wish to follow Jesus.

We need to pray very, very much for the conversion of priests and bishops. They have the most to lose…for they shall answer to God the Judge for every single soul that they lead astray.
And Jesus loves them. He does not want them to perish in the fires of Hell. He died for them also…and He does not want His sacrifice for them to be in vain.

I KNOW it is difficult. I hope you will at least try the Hail Mary when you slip. Remember, justification is no excuse according to Christ. There are other ways to try to correct priests and bishops.
I hope this helps.

 

[NFrancis]

Almost.

In the case of an ectopic pregnancy, it is morrally permissable to remove the fallopian tube or the portion of it that is causing the inflamation (usual way ectopic pregnancy is diagnosed). It is not morally permissable to remove just the baby - unless it is determined that the baby has already died.

Thank you for correcting me.

 

[aicirt]

The Roman Catholic Church certainly does do that.

Yes, the Catholic Church does do it but did it offer all of its services in this case? Do you know for sure? I don’t. I haven’t read anything other than the Church excommunicated the mother and doctors.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Yes, the Catholic Church does do it but did it offer all of its services in this case? Do you know for sure? I don’t. I haven’t read anything other than the Church excommunicated the mother and doctors.

I refer you to the link on post # 466 of this thread.
lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/mar/09032018.html
That should show that the Church representatives most CERTAINLY did all that was possible.

It should also be stated that the following link shows just what was done to prevent the Church and the 9 year old girl’s biological father from getting anywhere near her to help her in ways that would not have called for abortion. This is the link: catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=15420

I hope this clears things up for you.

 

[vames]

1. I don’t see what moral lesson the Brazilian Catholics would have been taught here. That if you’re a nine year old, you’re raped into pregnancy and you have an underdeveloped body even for your age (like the doctors said repeatedly), then your fate should be to be further punished by physical torture or to die “like a martyr”, as someone here has suggested? So the doctors should have let her to carry the pregnancy until the verge of eclampsia and then cut her open to extract the preemies, at the expense of her future fertility and risking other health problems or even death. Please, don’t cite countless other cases where younger girls have successfully given birth; generalizations are absurd when it comes to medicine and especially in such delicate cases.
2. Accusing the mother of some tacit consent to the rape or asking her to repent is wrong. According to the local press, the girl told the police that she didn’t say anything about the rape to her mother, because the rapist had threatened to cut her neck (the girl’s neck) with a sickle. As for the repentance, why should the mother repent - because she believed the doctors’ word, despite of what the priests have said, and rushed to save her daughter’s life? Too bad that everybody, except for the mother and doctors, saw this highly particular case only as a tool to advance their own causes: the feminists use it to promote free abortion, the priests use it to fight the trend of abortion liberalization in Latin America.
3. To those who lament the effects of abortion: don’t compare a grown-up woman who freely chooses abortion to a little girl who can barely comprehend what’s happened. Do you honestly believe that being forced to have a c-section, only to find out later that her babies have died or have been adopted, would have been healthier and better for her? Of course, if she will be ceaselessly lectured that this abortion is the most evil thing that could ever happen to her and that she will carry for the rest of her life the burden of a horrific sin, then yes, the psychological damage will be serious. If not, then she will have to cope “only” with the psychological damage of the rape. Recently there was a story about her in a newspaper and the reporter says she was at home playing with dolls and with her sister. Like any child of her age should do.

 

[Canto]

1.As for the repentance, why should the mother repent - because she believed the doctors’ word, despite of what the priests have said, and rushed to save her daughter’s life? Too bad that everybody, except for the mother and doctors, saw this highly particular case only as a tool to advance their own causes: the feminists use it to promote free abortion, the priests use it to fight the trend of abortion liberalization in Latin America.

Rape is wrong, abortion is wrong - do 2 wrongs make a right - nope.

The father did not consent to the abortion and the hospital has acknowledged this

The mother was coerced by pro abortionists

The family priest has said reports that he and the mother were being guided by a team of medical experts at the hospital was wrong.

192,445 girls from 10 to 14 years old gave birth between 2000 and 2006 in Brazil

Dr. Elizabeth Kipman Cerqueira, a Brazilian obstetrician, said in a public statement on the case that “…the abortion is likely to do serious damage to the girl psychologically, and noted that early labor could have been induced at some point after 22 weeks, rather than an abortion.” The twins were already at over 20 week’s gestation when they were killed.

Ironically, at the same time that the IMIP staff was seeking an abortion for their young Brazilian patient, a nine year old girl in Peru was giving birth successfully, becoming the youngest mother in Peru. She had been sexually abused by a relative, and would be receiving counseling and financial assistance from the Peruvian government, the AP reported (see article in Portuguese at noticias.uol.com.br/ultnot/afp/2006/12/02/ult34u16939…).

Archbishop Cardoso held a meeting on the morning of March 3rd in the episcopal residence, attended by the director of the IMIP, Antonio Figueiras. After being informed of the manipulative behavior of hospital staff, Figueiras agreed to cancel plans to carry out an abortion on the twins at his facility.

lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/mar/09032413.html

Brazillian Archbishop: **“Today, I ask: why are we going to stay in silence when 50 million abortions are happening in the world? I call that the silent holocaust. And we, the Christians, cannot remain silent.”
**

 

[vames]

“The mother was coerced by pro abortionists. The family priest has said reports that he and the mother were being guided by a team of medical experts at the hospital was wrong”
That doesn’t mean that the mother didn’t have access to a medical opinion. And the first advice came not from the experts at IMIP or some feminists or social workers, but from the first doctor that had examined the girl, in Pesqueira:
pernambuco.com/ultimas/nota.asp?materia=20090227084722&assunto=70&onde=VidaUrbana

“The twins were already at over 20 week’s gestation when they were killed.”
No. All the sources, except for Lifesitenews, have reported either 15 or 16 weeks at the time when the pregnancy was discovered.

“Ironically, at the same time that the IMIP staff was seeking an abortion for their young Brazilian patient, a nine year old girl in Peru was giving birth successfully”
Well, again extrapolation… it could have been even a 5 year old giving birth to triplets, this is not an argument.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

1. I don’t see what moral lesson the Brazilian Catholics would have been taught here. That if you’re a nine year old, you’re raped into pregnancy and you have an underdeveloped body even for your age (like the doctors said repeatedly), then your fate should be to be further punished by physical torture or to die “like a martyr”, as someone here has suggested? So the doctors should have let her to carry the pregnancy until the verge of eclampsia and then cut her open to extract the preemies, at the expense of her future fertility and risking other health problems or even death. Please, don’t cite countless other cases where younger girls have successfully given birth; generalizations are absurd when it comes to medicine and especially in such delicate cases.

First of all, if the girl had been having her menstual cycle, she was certainly NOT underdeveloped for her age. Actually, she would have been over developed. And if you know anything at all about how an abortion is performed, you would certainly not wonder that a cesarean section a few weeks later was certainly safer for the mental and physical safety and well being of the 9 year old.
It seems that you are the one who is not well informed of biology in this sort of case.

1. Accusing the mother of some tacit consent to the rape or asking her to repent is wrong. According to the local press, the girl told the police that she didn’t say anything about the rape to her mother, because the rapist had threatened to cut her neck (the girl’s neck) with a sickle. As for the repentance, why should the mother repent - because she believed the doctors’ word, despite of what the priests have said, and rushed to save her daughter’s life? Too bad that everybody, except for the mother and doctors, saw this highly particular case only as a tool to advance their own causes: the feminists use it to promote free abortion, the priests use it to fight the trend of abortion liberalization in Latin America.

***No. Had she believed the doctor’s words, she would not have felt the need to go in search of a doctor who would do as she wanted (the abortions)…not what the doctors and specialists at the original hospital told her about the health and safety of her daughter. She didn’t LIKE what she was told by the doctors. The only thing she wanted to hear was that abortion was the only answer for her daughter. And she searched until she found it. Do not take away her responsibility by claiming that she was only doing as advised by the doctors. She wasn’t advised to do such a thing. She went in search of doctors who would satisfy her desires.
It is the same as searching for a priest who will tell you that it is alright to use birth control. Just because the priest says it…after you have already been told that according to the Church you cannot…it doesn’t make you not responsible for knowing the truth.

This mother and little girl were in very close contact with the local priest. The Church and this little girls biological father were kept away completely as soon as the mother found a place willing to murder her grandchildren.***

1. To those who lament the effects of abortion: don’t compare a grown-up woman who freely chooses abortion to a little girl who can barely comprehend what’s happened. Do you honestly believe that being forced to have a c-section, only to find out later that her babies have died or have been adopted, would have been healthier and better for her? Of course, if she will be ceaselessly lectured that this abortion is the most evil thing that could ever happen to her and that she will carry for the rest of her life the burden of a horrific sin, then yes, the psychological damage will be serious. If not, then she will have to cope “only” with the psychological damage of the rape. Recently there was a story about her in a newspaper and the reporter says she was at home playing with dolls and with her sister. Like any child of her age should do.

***First of all, the girl is completely innocent in the sin. These decisions were made for her…not by her. The babies did NOT have to die…and adoption is certainly the right way when compared to murder. She was forced to endure rape. She was forced to endure the murder of her two children while in her womb. How is that better than enduring a C-section to save the lives of the babies and her own life?

Your lack of knowledge on this subject is sad. ***

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

That certainly is an argument when people are claiming that her body, because of her age, could not have carried the babies to a safe gestation time.

 

[Fiyero3305]

This has, of course, become an issue on another forum I’m a member of and I’m having trouble finding quote-unquote “un-biased” news sources which explain that the excommunication was automatic and not ordered by the Bishop, and, if possible, more on the situations in the hospital such as the possible misleading of the mother to permit the abortion, whether or not there was a legitimate serious threat to the girl, etc. Sources such as lifenews or catholic news sites won’t be accepted by the people I’m arguing with so I was wondering if anyone here had any such sources which support our side?

 

[aicirt]

Because many bishops are total weaklings and are spineless in upholding true Catholic Teachings. I’m tired of these liberal, push over bishops. Arrgh.

Do agree with you, sad to say. EWTN gave an example of St. Ambrose denying a king entrance into Church because the king or a ceasar had just had 7,000 slaughtered. I was imagining excommunication to be like that where one is barred from the door until he repents. Alas and alack, not so today. Don’t know why.

I can’t imagine a Bishop telling me more than once not to receive Communion. I guess I have a tad more integrity than these politicians.

 

[Lavio_Pareschi]

I am pro-life too, but I can’t see how a nine year old child would survive the pregnancy of twins, and I don’t think the Brazilian Catholic Church should have spoken out like this as it kind of makes us look like a Church that would risk the death of a child and I can’t see how she would have been physically able to carry twins to full term, thus I don’t believe the babies would have survived anyway.

I live in Brazil.
The media did not tell the true story (as usual).
The girl was not in “risk of death”. The family did not want to abort, but was “convinced” by pro-abortion people (working for the state, public health care - the family was very poor) to do it (easier and cheaper).
The dark point is that they did not TRY.
They could have waited one or two months more, to see if it was possible to save the three lifes. But they didn’t.

Also, the excommunication in such cases is automatic, based on church laws. It was not a decision of the local Catholic church.

 

[vames]

Jesus N Cherie:

First of all, the girl is completely innocent in the sin. These decisions were made for her…not by her.

I didn’t claim at all she was guilty. I was only referring to her life from now on, living in a small town where excommunication of her mother and the memory of this abortion may stain seriously her social life.
Jesus N Cherie:

First of all, if the girl had been having her menstual cycle, she was certainly NOT underdeveloped for her age. Actually, she would have been over developed. And if you know anything at all about how an abortion is performed, you would certainly not wonder that a cesarean section a few weeks later was certainly safer for the mental and physical safety and well being of the 9 year old. (…)

Obviously, you didn’t pay any attention to the link posted before:
pernambuco.com/ultimas/nota.asp?materia=20090227084722&assunto=70&onde=VidaUrbana
and specifically to this quote - I leave it untranslated:
“O ginecologista José Severiano Cavalcanti, que atendeu a menina na Casa de Saúde São José, em Pesqueira, antecipou que o aborto será necessário para não por em risco a vida da garota.“Ela tem nove anos, mas sua idade cronológica não bate com sua estrutura física franzina, subnutrida”, observou. Segundo Severiano, a menina mede apenas um metro e trinta de altura. “Ela não tem pélvis para suportar uma gestação de gêmeos. Não tem seios desenvolvidos e sequer pelos pubianos”, argumentou.”
(So it’s not that “people are claiming that her body, because of her age, could not have carried the babies to a safe gestation time”, as you say.)
Jesus N Cherie:

Had she believed the doctor’s words, she would not have felt the need to go in search of a doctor who would do as she wanted (the abortions)…not what the doctors and specialists at the original hospital told her about the health and safety of her daughter. She didn’t LIKE what she was told by the doctors. The only thing she wanted to hear was that abortion was the only answer for her daughter. And she searched until she found it.

No. First, the mother took the girl to the clinic from Pesqueira; here the pregnancy was discovered. The doctor (Cavalcanti, see link above) said that he can’t perform abortions for conscience reasons and suggested the mother to go elsewhere. Then the mother took the girl to IMIP (Instituto Materno Infantil de Pernambuco), but the biological father opposed the abortion, so they released the girl. That’s why the mother and the social workers took the girl to CISAM, where the abortion was performed without the father’s knowledge.

Now don’t tell me that ALL the media and ALL the doctors were lying and only Lifesitenews tells the truth.
The clinic from Pesqueira:
sertao24horas.com.br/cute/example/2009/02/27/suspeito-de-engravidar-menina-de-nove-anos-confessa-que-abusava-tamb-m-da-irm-dela.html

IMIP:
alagoas24horas.com.br/conteudo/?vEditoria=Brasil&vCod=62285
odia.terra.com.br/brasil/htm/garota_de_9_anos_tera_gravidez_de_gemeos_interrompida_233022.asp
oglobo.globo.com/pais/cidades/mat/2009/03/04/igreja-catolica-tenta-impedir-aborto-de-gemeos-de-menina-de-9-anos-abusada-por-padrasto-em-pernambuco-754680349.asp

CISAM:
jornaldeluzilandia.com.br/txt.php?id=9438
conteudo.arcauniversal.com/2009/03/06/arcebispo-excomunga-envolvidos-no-aborto-de-menina/
jc.uol.com.br/canal/cotidiano/pernambuco/noticia/2009/03/04/medicos-do-cisam-realizam-curetagem-na-menina-de-9-anos-que-abortou-180937.php
noticias.terra.com.br/brasil/interna/0,OI3617424-EI5030,00.html
Jesus N Cherie:

The babies did NOT have to die…and adoption is certainly the right way when compared to murder. She was forced to endure rape. She was forced to endure the murder of her two children while in her womb. How is that better than enduring a C-section to save the lives of the babies and her own life?

How can you be so sure? Are you any of the doctors that have examined her? How come that the doctors at three medical institutions say that a girl’s life is in danger (ALTHOUGH not in imminent danger of death - nobody said that) and still you’re so sure that she could have been able to safely carry the pregnancy at least for another two or three months, until the viability point?

 

[Cattitude]

For anyone interested in reading the posted articles, here is a link to Google Translate.
The articles are in Portuguese.

 

[Apryl]

That if you’re a nine year old, you’re raped into pregnancy and you have an underdeveloped body even for your age (like the doctors said repeatedly), then your fate should be to be further punished by physical torture or to die “like a martyr”, as someone here has suggested? So the doctors should have let her to carry the pregnancy until the verge of eclampsia and then cut her open to extract the preemies, at the expense of her future fertility and risking other health problems or even death. Please, don’t cite countless other cases where younger girls have successfully given birth; generalizations are absurd when it comes to medicine and especially in such delicate cases.

By what historical reasoning to you come up with this suggestion as a likely turn of events?

Unless you KNOW of someone (not know them personally, but at least give an anectode), I have to wonder why you ASSUME this was the likely turn of events.

Let’s be real: Bees shouldn’t be able to fly. Jerome Bettis was a small baby when he was born. There are all sorts of things around us, every day, that seem like ‘Wow, that shouldn’t be’, but it IS.

MY God is an awesome God. And nothing says that this child was even THREATENED with the horrible scenario you painted.

Now, granted, some women, adult women, full sized, have problem pregnancies, but that doesnt’t mean that this child was looking at that.

Unless you can come up with some reason why you assume that, I’m going to keep harping on this point.

 

[Amolibri]

The father did not consent to the abortion [how do you know this???]
That “father” lost any rights in the matter of this child when he violated her…why is there any mention of HIS rights?

More contempt for women I have *never ever *seen. :crying:

 

[vames]

Amolibri:

The father did not consent to the abortion
[how do you know this???]
That “father” lost any rights in the matter of this child when he violated her…why is there any mention of HIS rights?
More contempt for women I have *never ever *seen. :crying:

I had exactly your thoughts, until I realized that these stories speak about the biological father of the girl (Erivaldo dos Santos), not about the rapist stepfather (Jailson da Silva), who in the meantime tried to run away and eventually was arrested.

@ Apryl: I dare to doubt that there are too many possibile outcomes for a high-risk gemelar pregnancy, in a pre-teen girl with underdeveloped pelvis, uterus, bones and muscles (and “high-risk” means high risk for the fetuses too, not only for the girl). Of course I can’t pretend to be sure of anything and nobody else can, except for the doctors who have examined the girl. I would have been very happy if at least one of these doctors would have said that there is a chance for the girl to carry the pregnancy until viability or that a possibile C-section may be less risky for her health than an abortion - **especially **since so many pre-teen girls in Brazil manage to give birth.

 

[St_Francis]

@ Apryl: I dare to doubt that there are too many possibile outcomes for a high-risk gemelar pregnancy, in a pre-teen girl with underdeveloped pelvis, uterus, bones and muscles (and “high-risk” means high risk for the fetuses too, not only for the girl). Of course I can’t pretend to be sure of anything and nobody else can, except for the doctors who have examined the girl. I would have been very happy if at least one of these doctors would have said that there is a chance for the girl to carry the pregnancy until viability or that a possibile C-section may be less risky for her health than an abortion - **especially **since so many pre-teen girls in Brazil manage to give birth.

This is the thing: if/when the girl’s life was in actual danger, a *treatment *could have been used such as a c-section, whether or not the twins had reached the age of viability. Performing an abortion had only one goal: to kill the twins. A c-section is not a direct killing of the baby(ies) but is a treatment for the mother experiencing danger.