Bread and Wine vs. Wafer

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LilyM said:
Your point? You try having over a billion members of your faith around the world many of whom commune weekly if not more often, and see whether you don’t need machines to help make all that bread!
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Maybe the point is that using machines to make the bread is a Roman innovation unknown before the schism. The Apostles never used machines and the practice was never approved by an Ecumenical Council…😉
 
It was also forbidden in the Old Testament to use unleavened bread for any sacrifice - again, a reason why it is inappropriate for the Eucharist and the eternal sacrifice.
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Fr. Ambrose, you have been corrected on this error numerous times. It is the use of LEAVENED bread for sacrifice which is forbidden by the Old Testament. Only unleavened bread could be used for Temple Sacrifices. The very ordination of Temple Priests required a sacrifice of unleavened bread:

Exodus 29:
1]
"Now this is what you shall do to them to consecrate them, that they may serve me as priests. Take one young bull and two rams without blemish,
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2] and unleavened bread, unleavened cakes mixed with oil, and unleavened wafers spread with oil. You shall make them of fine wheat flour.
3] And you shall put them in one basket and bring them in the basket, and bring the bull and the two rams.
4] You shall bring Aaron and his sons to the door of the tent of meeting, and wash them with water.

…

22]
"You shall also take the fat of the ram, and the fat tail, and the fat that covers the entrails, and the appendage of the liver, and the two kidneys with the fat that is on them, and the right thigh (for it is a ram of ordination),

23] and one loaf of bread, and one cake of bread with oil, and one wafer, out of the basket of unleavened bread that is before the LORD;
24] and you shall put all these in the hands of Aaron and in the hands of his sons, and wave them for a wave offering before the LORD.
25] Then you shall take them from their hands, and burn them on the altar in addition to the burnt offering, as a pleasing odor before the LORD; it is an offering by fire to the LORD.
26]
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Unleavened bread is the bread for Sacrifice in the Judaic Covenant; any rabbi can tell you that.

I’m not particularily interested in the Apostolic Christian “debate” over the use of leavened or unleavened bread, since I celebrate and receive with both, but I do find it a bit uncouth to misrepresent Judaism, intentionally or unintentionally, to score points in this debate. As is well known here I hold Judaism in the highest regard, and I think proper understanding of it is very important to an educated discussion of Apostolic Christianity and our practices. I wouldn’t even have participated in this thread had the issue of Jewish practice not come up. 🙂

I’m not sure where you got the idea that unleavened bread was forbidden for use in Sacrifices in Judaism, but it’s incorrect and proven wrong even by the Scriptures we share. Once again I humbly suggest that you stop using this erroneous information to support your argument.

Peace and God bless!
 
Is there blessed bread at a RC mass? Is it unleavened?

At the EO church we attend the bread for the Euchrist and blessed bread are made by a member of the church I believe.

I always got a bit creeped out by the wafers at a Catholic mass to be honest. With my poor understanding of transubstantiation and the petrified skin look to the wafer and all…😊 And then being told you aren’t allowed to chew, only swallow…:eek:
 
The huge number of people at a Catholic mass is an interesting point. The few EO parishes I have attended and seen seem to be built to stay smaller. Not that they aren’t busy and full. But they seem to be designed to be smaller around here. And then they start another parish close by when the current one is at capacity. And the Catholic churches around here are enormous.

There is actually an ordinance in Seattle to prevent churches being built over a certain size unless they are older existing buildings. So the largest churched in Seattle are all Roman Catholic.
 
Quinault said:
Is there blessed bread at a RC mass? Is it unleavened?
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I don’t know if it has ever been a custom, but it is not practiced now. There is no further bread, leavened or unleavened. Antidoran is used in the Eastern Catholic Churches.
At the EO church we attend the bread for the Euchrist and blessed bread are made by a member of the church I believe.
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I know a large Roman Catholic Church where the unleavened bread is made by parishioners. I know where the bread is made in three Eastern Catholic Churches as well: one in parishioners’ homes, one by the priest’s wife, and one by the priest’s mom.
And then being told you aren’t allowed to chew, only swallow…:eek:
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Whoever told you that was wrong. I have no idea where it started, and you aren’t the only one who has heard it, but it was just as silly then as it is now.
 
Quinault said:
Is there blessed bread at a RC mass? Is it unleavened?

At the EO church we attend the bread for the Euchrist and blessed bread are made by a member of the church I believe.

I always got a bit creeped out by the wafers at a Catholic mass to be honest. With my poor understanding of transubstantiation and the petrified skin look to the wafer and all…😊 And then being told you aren’t allowed to chew, only swallow…:eek:
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You mean blessed bread apart from the Eucharistic Body of Christ itself, I presume? The answer to that would be no.
 
Quinault said:
Is there blessed bread at a RC mass? Is it unleavened?

At the EO church we attend the bread for the Euchrist and blessed bread are made by a member of the church I believe.

I always got a bit creeped out by the wafers at a Catholic mass to be honest. With my poor understanding of transubstantiation and the petrified skin look to the wafer and all…😊 And then being told you aren’t allowed to chew, only swallow…:eek:
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In the Latin Church there is no distribution of Antidoran after Mass, though there is certainly nothing against blessing bread. It’s simply not something that is a part of the Latin Liturgical tradition. Our non-Latin Churches of the Byzantine tradition do uphold this practice in many cases, however.

As for the baking of the bread, in the old days it would have been made by members of the parish, but now it is usually mass-produced. There are no rules forbidding the use of home-baked unleavened bread, however, it’s just that baking unleavened bread for the sheer numbers of Latin Catholics would be a daunting task indeed (there are well over a billion Latins, and the average parish size is often quite a bit larger than the average Orthodox parish). 😛

As for the “no chewing” thing, that was just a recent pop-piety practice that was actually never part of Church teaching. Well meaning nuns typically spread the idea in the past century, and the practice of “swallowing only” has since been casually discouraged. It was folk piety and nothing more. 🙂

As for Transubstantiation, understand that it simply means that the physical properties of bread and wine remain while the essence (substance) of them are totally replaced by the full Body and Blood. It doesn’t mean that you’re eating the petrified skin of Christ. 😃

Peace and God bless!

P.S. I see you’re in Seattle. Me too! What church do you attend and whereabouts in our area do you live?
 
We are attending a EO church in Brier. We live right behind Bill Gates old Highschool.
 
LilyM said:
You mean blessed bread apart from the Eucharistic Body of Christ itself, I presume? The answer to that would be no.
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Yes, the East has a custom of having bread that is blessed distinct from the Lamb which is consecrated. The round prosphoron is cut into a square. The inner square becomes the Lamb which is consecrated while the outer sections are cut into pieces and only blessed, not consecrated. Some distribute it immediately following the Eucharist and some have it at the end. In any case, there is a difference between blessed and consecrated bread.
 
I have to say I love the blessed bread. It made us feel so welcome. We have several people give it to us everytime we attend. And everyone takes and eats it as they leave also.

And I am sure a HUGE reason why they do this is because of the fasting from midnight until the time of the Euchrist at 11am or so.
 
Woodstock said:
Yes, the East has a custom of having bread that is blessed distinct from the Lamb which is consecrated. The round prosphoron is cut into a square. The inner square becomes the Lamb which is consecrated while the outer sections are cut into pieces and only blessed, not consecrated. Some distribute it immediately following the Eucharist and some have it at the end. In any case, there is a difference between blessed and consecrated bread.
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Well, consecrated bread is certainly blessed as well, though of course the distinction is well made, consecration is much much more obviously. The epiclesis is the calling down of the Holy Spirit upon the gifts of bread and wine, that is certainly blessing them! :hmmm:

When I saw RC I thought of Latin Rite Catholicism. I would call Eastern Catholics just that - Eastern Catholics or EC, even though being in communion with Rome they can rightly be called RC too. Pardon my mistakes of language.

As for the EC, some, such as the Maronites, use unleavened bread as well, I believe - but I believe they don’t distribute antidoron either, didn’t see 'em do so when I went to Maronite liturgy. Of course different Eastern rites DO both use leavened bread and distribute antidoron.
 
Ghosty said:
As for Transubstantiation, understand that it simply means that the physical properties of bread and wine remain while the essence (substance) of them are totally replaced by the full Body and Blood. It doesn’t mean that you’re eating the petrified skin of Christ. 😃
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I understand the concept now. But when I didn’t, the wafer really grossed me out.
 
Quinault said:
I understand the concept now. But when I didn’t, the wafer really grossed me out.
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Hehehe, quite understandable! 😃

It creeped out the ancient pagans too, incidently. We were accused of cannibalism and insultingly called “deophagoi”, and on top of that we met in catacombs, ancient graveyards! Some things never change. 😛

Peace and God bless!
 
Quinault said:
Blessed bread is for anyone to receive, not just Orthodox.
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I know - went to a Greek Orthodox liturgy with a friend years back. It took her a while to convince me that the antidoron was blessed bread but wasn’t the same thing as the Communion bread 😃
 
Quinault said:
Blessed bread is for anyone to receive, not just Orthodox.
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That depends which Orthodox Church you attend. I came across a website last year which said “Everyone is invited to kiss the cross at the end of the liturgy. It is the Orthodox Tradition that the “antidoron” (bread which was blessed at the liturgy, and is given out after the final blessing) should only be taken by Orthodox Christians.” 🤷
 
OK, I am incorrect. Sorry for any confusion.:o

orthodoxwiki.org/Antidoron

And sorry for the rabbit trail:blush:

I have actually never gone forward to get any. The really kind people at the DL we attend bring it to me. I think they feel sorry for the poor lady juggling a 4mth old, 2 year old and 6 year old all by herself.😃
 
Woodstock said:
I don’t know if it has ever been a custom, but it is not practiced now. There is no further bread, leavened or unleavened. Antidoran is used in the Eastern Catholic Churches.

I know a large Roman Catholic Church where the unleavened bread is made by parishioners. I know where the bread is made in three Eastern Catholic Churches as well: one in parishioners’ homes, one by the priest’s wife, and one by the priest’s mom.
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In Egypt, the Coptic Catholics in the parishes I have been to also have “home made” bread.

Having said that, I am not at all challenging the Latin practice of some ENORMOUS parishes that utilize a practical way to produce the bread.
Whoever told you that was wrong. I have no idea where it started, and you aren’t the only one who has heard it, but it was just as silly then as it is now.
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I have never heard that at all (of course, I’ve only been Catholic recently). My reading of Catholic apologetics (against Protestants) on the matter is that the verb “to eat” in relation to the Eucharist is an act of chewing.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Ghosty said:
In the Latin Church there is no distribution of Antidoran after Mass… It’s simply not something that is a part of the Latin Liturgical tradition.
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It used to be part of the Latin liturgical tradition. Perhaps the custom has died out after Vatican II?

Baskets of petit pain or pain beni used to be distributed after Mass in France and other countries.

Does this not happen any more?
 
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