Break the Seal said Baton Rouge Court

[Lapey]

The Church may disagree with it but they still are required to follow the laws and state criminal statutes just like any other citizen. As you know there have been quite a few indictments of high ranking church leaders recently for failing to report the abuse and rape of children by abuser priests. Those indictments and depositions continue today. Look at what’s going on in St. Louis with the Arch Bishop the past few weeks. Any crime involving a child as a victim that a priest has knowledge of should be handled differently and should be reported to police authorities ASAP. If they don’t do it, they will continue to loose support from the laity and continue to lose moral authority.

The Church, and Her ministers and people, are bound to follow “just law”. This ruling will in fact cause an “unjust law” or situation which we are required and bound to reject and disobey. Civil law does not supersede Church/God’s law. This priest will follow the Church in this situation, and rightfully so.

You may not like it, but this is right.

In the situation you refer to, indictments of church officials, a different situation is present completely. Crimes were known by many other avenues than confession and nothing was done. Priests are exempt from the mandatory reporting laws if the information is received within private conversations; i.e. confession and spiritual direction.

 

[seaton2005]

The Church, and Her ministers and people, are bound to follow “just law”. This ruling will in fact cause an “unjust law” or situation which we are required and bound to reject and disobey. Civil law does not supersede Church/God’s law. This priest will follow the Church in this situation, and rightfully so.

You may not like it, but this is right.

In the situation you refer to, indictments of church officials, a different situation is present completely. Crimes were known by many other avenues than confession and nothing was done. Priests are exempt from the mandatory reporting laws if the information is received within private conversations; i.e. confession and spiritual direction.

With all do respect, every citizen is expected to follow the criminal statutes and laws at the state and federal level. It does not matter who you are. That goes for reporting too. If a child has been victimized it must be reported. If a priest commits the abuse it must be reported. This has nothing to do with the 1st Amendment. Now in the case of confessional and the learning of crimes, that needs to change. And I believe it will soon. The church has lost the handle on these matters as a result of their own cover ups.

 

[Orogeny]

Now in the case of confessional and the learning of crimes, that needs to change. And I believe it will soon. The church has lost the handle on these matters as a result of their own cover ups.

I believe that you are deluding yourself. The Church will not remove the seal of confession because of past abuses.

Peace

Tim

 

[Atisor207]

With all do respect, every citizen is expected to follow the criminal statutes and laws at the state and federal level. It does not matter who you are. That goes for reporting too. If a child has been victimized it must be reported. If a priest commits the abuse it must be reported. This has nothing to do with the 1st Amendment. Now in the case of confessional and the learning of crimes, that needs to change. And I believe it will soon. The church has lost the handle on these matters as a result of their own cover ups.

Do you really think Christ would allow a sacrament to be changed?

 

[CarolNoel]

I believe that you are deluding yourself. The Church will not remove the seal of confession because of past abuses.

Peace

Tim

Exactly! Our Church will never remove the seal of confession.

 

[Thorns]

I sometimes wonder which laws truly come first in cases like this, God’s laws or man’s?
It seems like Gods laws deal with the future and afterlife, while man’s laws are designed for the here and now. Since these crimes are on earth and happening here and now, it seems like man’s law is more applicable here. Besides, not enforcing mans laws here and now can also lead to damnation of eternal souls. Not only can the victims souls potentially be damaged further, but the increase of victims may continue to rise (more damaged souls), not to mention the offender keeps digging a deeper hole for himself spiritually as well.

For those who say people will be scared from going to Confession if the seal can be broken… If the person is only going to confess to be “let off the hook” without wanting to take any responsibility for their deeds or make reparation (sometimes this means jailtime and rehabilitation), then perhaps theyre not truly contrite to begin wit and their souls are still in danger?

 

[Thorns]

What if that cuts into the amount of people going to confession?

Let me also ask you this. Is it good to take away from the safety of our relationship with God for the good of secular laws? Also, if the church’s laws went away whenever they were convenient, would they mean much?

Is leaving a child in such danger really worth it? There could be millions going to Confession, but if theyre not sincere in their hearts they are still not forgiven.Nothing has changed, except that a child and potential future victims can be spared.

I wonder if this mentality of keeping the seal at all costs is a matter of legalism. And we know Jesus was highly against legalism. IMO, its much like passing by a dying child and ignoring them and offering them no help because you have to make it to Sunday Mass on time.

 

[Atisor207]

I sometimes wonder which laws truly come first in cases like this, God’s laws or man’s?
It seems like Gods laws deal with the future and afterlife, while man’s laws are designed for the here and now. Since these crimes are on earth and happening here and now, it seems like man’s law is more applicable here. Besides, not enforcing mans laws here and now can also lead to damnation of eternal souls. Not only can the victims souls potentially be damaged further, but the increase of victims may continue to rise (more damaged souls), not to mention the offender keeps digging a deeper hole for himself spiritually as well.

For those who say people will be scared from going to Confession if the seal can be broken… If the person is only going to confess to be “let off the hook” without wanting to take any responsibility for their deeds or make reparation (sometimes this means jailtime and rehabilitation), then perhaps theyre not truly contrite to begin wit and their souls are still in danger?

Man’s laws can be wrong. i.e Abortion

God’s laws are divine and infallible

In fact, all of what we think are right man’s laws come from God. Thou shall not kill, thou shall not steal, etc.

 

[irishpatrick]

The only solution going forward is for the Chuch to mandate screened confessionals–keeping the identity of any person going to confession completely unknown to the Priest and to the public. That way, the Priest cannot ever know any person in these situations and he cannot be forced to make any statements about what is confessed since he would have no idea who the person or persons is/are.

I would mandate screened confessions today, if I could. Take this sacred time of confessing sins away from probing eyes.

 

[irishpatrick]

I sometimes wonder which laws truly come first in cases like this, God’s laws or man’s?
It seems like Gods laws deal with the future and afterlife, while man’s laws are designed for the here and now. Since these crimes are on earth and happening here and now, it seems like man’s law is more applicable here. Besides, not enforcing mans laws here and now can also lead to damnation of eternal souls. Not only can the victims souls potentially be damaged further, but the increase of victims may continue to rise (more damaged souls), not to mention the offender keeps digging a deeper hole for himself spiritually as well.

For those who say people will be scared from going to Confession if the seal can be broken… If the person is only going to confess to be “let off the hook” without wanting to take any responsibility for their deeds or make reparation (sometimes this means jailtime and rehabilitation), then perhaps theyre not truly contrite to begin wit and their souls are still in danger?

It is not a question of whether a person has their heart in the right place, it is a question of making people afraid to go to confession (people who do have their hearts in the right place) out of fear that their sins might be revealed. The confessional is supposed to be a safe haven away from the world in which Catholics can feel safe confessing their sins, without ANY thought that people outside the confessional will ever know of their sins…it is a personal and private encounter with Jesus/God, and must be kept sacred.

 

[Atisor207]

The only solution going forward is for the Chuch to mandate screened confessionals–keeping the identity of any person going to confession completely unknown to the Priest and to the public. That way, the Priest cannot ever know any person in these situations and he cannot be forced to make any statements about what is confessed since he would have no idea who the person or persons is/are.

I would mandate screened confessions today, if I could. Take this sacred time of confessing sins away from probing eyes.

Funny you say that because I never mention my name when I go to confession.
The priest doesn’t even know me. I don’t go to that parish all the time.
I just go to a parish that is a little bit further away because my family goes there but comes Saturdays I go to confession to the one closer to home.

 

[Thorns]

Man’s laws can be wrong. i.e Abortion

God’s laws are divine and infallible

In fact, all of what we think are right man’s laws come from God. Thou shall not kill, thou shall not steal, etc.

Thou shall not bear false witness.

Does witholding information that can protect a child fall under that?

 

[irishpatrick]

Funny you say that because I never mention my name when I go to confession.
The priest doesn’t even know me. I don’t go to that parish all the time.
I just go to a parish that is a little bit further away because my family goes there but comes Saturdays I go to confession to the one closer to home.

We are supposed to experience complete anonymity.

 

[Corki]

The only solution going forward is for the Chuch to mandate screened confessionals–keeping the identity of any person going to confession completely unknown to the Priest and to the public. That way, the Priest cannot ever know any person in these situations and he cannot be forced to make any statements about what is confessed since he would have no idea who the person or persons is/are.

I would mandate screened confessions today, if I could. Take this sacred time of confessing sins away from probing eyes.

And I believed this was the proposal in Ireland a year or so ago when the government was contemplating (I don’t think it passed) requiring priests to report what was said in Confession.

Priests are not agents of the state. Everyone is not a mandatory reporter and the extent to which clergy should be considered such has to end when their Sacramental duties begin.

 

[Thorns]

It is not a question of whether a person has their heart in the right place, it is a question of making people afraid to go to confession (people who do have their hearts in the right place) out of fear that their sins might be revealed. The confessional is supposed to be a safe haven away from the world in which Catholics can feel safe confessing their sins, without ANY thought that people outside the confessional will ever know of their sins…it is a personal and private encounter with Jesus/God, and must be kept sacred.

I see your point, but at the same time if a person isnt willing to pay the consequences for their sin, does this suggest theyee not truly sorry? i am referring to the people who you allege have their hearts in the right place btw. If they did, they wouldn’t mind humiliation, which is a small price and penance to pay for the sin they committed no?

Also, wouldn’t this also be a motivation for people not to commit crimes/sin or push them to try harder not to?

 

[irishpatrick]

Thou shall not bear false witness.

Does witholding information that can protect a child fall under that?

That is just another reason to make confession 100% anonymous to the Priest and to the world at large.

 

[Atisor207]

Thou shall not bear false witness.

Does witholding information that can protect a child fall under that?

So are you saying the child did not tell her parents?

It is not bearing false witness. The priest doesn’t lie. The priest is obeying a seal. The penitent knows the rules.

 

[irishpatrick]

I see your point, but at the same time if a person isnt willing to pay the consequences for their sin, does this suggest theyee not truly sorry? i am referring to the people who you allege have their hearts in the right place btw. If they did, they wouldn’t mind humiliation, which is a small price and penance to pay for the sin they committed no?

Also, wouldn’t this also be a motivation for people not to commit crimes/sin or push them to try harder not to?

We already have a situation in which amazingly small percentages of Catholics go to confession, and the vast majority do not receive the spiritual gift of forgiveness offered to them. I cannot speak to any other person’s state (whether they are truly sorry or not is between them, the Priest, and the Lord). All I can say is that if we start seeing the confessional seal broken, it is highly likely that we will also see even fewer people going to confession.

This world does not need less Jesus. It needs more, and more, and more.

 

[irishpatrick]

And I believed this was the proposal in Ireland a year or so ago when the government was contemplating (I don’t think it passed) requiring priests to report what was said in Confession.

Priests are not agents of the state. Everyone is not a mandatory reporter and the extent to which clergy should be considered such has to end when their Sacramental duties begin.

It is the only solution that offers a reduction of attacks from both sides. If the Priest has no ability to know the identity of the confessing person, than he cannot make any valid statements to anyone, even if compelled by civil law. Conversely, Catholics would safely assume their confession is 100% anonymously given.

Also, another good idea is to have the Priest enter the confessional from a space not seen by the person confessing their sins…that way no one can be sure of the Confessor’s or Confesee’s identity. Many parishes have confession help from Priests in neighboring parishes…keeping the Priest identity unknown to the confessee, while keeping the confessee’s idenity unknown to the Priest, solves this problem.

 

[Thorns]

So are you saying the child did not tell her parents?

It is not bearing false witness. The priest doesn’t lie. The priest is obeying a seal. The penitent knows the rules.

If the penitent is a child, they might not know the rules or remember them, even if they were taught. And we dont know or wont know if a child or all children will also tell their parents.

The priest may obey the seal, but reporting such an incident to authorities, the priest is not doing so In Persona Christi, hes just doing it as a human being who cares about the welfare and safety of another human being and isnt bound by legalism IMO.

Also, this wasnt a sin on the victims part, so he should report it. He isnt breaking the seal by exposing her sin, because she had not sinned. The police will investigate and take it further from there.