Breaking the Law

[Bookcat]

Thank you.

Actually even minor transgressions of human law can be sinful…venially sinful …perhaps but sinful.

Though again not all…it depends on the kind of law etc and the intention of the law giver …etc

(for example speeding 60 when it is 55 mph may not be a sin due to the intentional setting of such speed limits lower than what is actually expected…though in school zone which is very strictly set …that is a different matter)

 

[Bookcat]

No. That a human law declares an action illegal does not confer sinfulness to it. Right and wrong, virtue and sin, are only what God determines, not legislators. Anyone who tells you otherwise is giving to Caesar what is God’s.

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NOT exactly true. …for all legit authority IS from God…therefore a breaking of a just human law can very much be sinful.

 

[Bookcat]

Paul tells us even in his Letter to the Romans (13 RSV) that the authority that human legislators etc comes from God…thus in just things etc we are to obey them and their laws…

***Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.

---

Of course unjust laws are not real laws…

and there can be smallness of matter here and thus venial sins…

and there can be purely penal laws as noted earlier…which are not sinful to go against…but would be sinful not to pay the penalty that one is given…

 

[OpenSource]

Of course unjust laws are not real laws…

But this is a contradiction to your declaration.

 

[Bookcat]

But this is a contradiction to your declaration.

Not really…it is just meaning that an unjust law by definition of what a “law” is theologically is not really a law due to it being unjust…though there are times when one still follow such for other reasons but we will not get into all that…

but anyhow this is not really the point…one can still call it an unjust law

 

[OpenSource]

NOT exactly true. …for all legit authority IS from God…therefore a breaking of a just human law can very much be sinful.

But who decides what authority is legit?

Did Paul say “all authority” or “all legit authority?”

Maybe its legit in some people’s eyes but not others’? Perhaps an “illegitimate”? authority created an unjust law and that was part of God’s plan all along to start a chain reaction to make a revolution?

I’ll go with all authority.

 

[OpenSource]

Bookcat, I apologize if I seem to be a little frank at times. I am actually very much enjoying our debate, but my original point was that can a purely man-made law cause one to sin?

If ALL authority comes from God, then logic would dictate that by disobeying that authority you would be disobeying God, no matter how goofy the law would appear to be.

But then again, “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and give to God what is God’s” would be an indication to follow the Ten Commandments above man-made law. However, logically, this would be a contradiction to Paul saying that all authority comes from God. God cannot contradict himself by allowing a law to be created and then be overridden by one that’s already in place, can he? Maybe there’s a context to what Paul was saying that I’m missing here.

 

[Bookcat]

But who decides what authority is legit?

Did Paul say “all authority” or “all legit authority?”

Maybe its legit in some people’s eyes but not others’? Perhaps an “illegitimate”? authority created an unjust law and that was part of God’s plan all along to start a chain reaction to make a revolution?

I’ll go with all authority.

Again it all depends on what kind of authority etc…

And a particular law can be unjust etc.

One would ordinarily I think presume legit authority until otherwise determined…at least in ordinary things…like the I am going to presume the Policeman has the authority to stop me if I am speeding for something…

 

[Bookcat]

Bookcat, I apologize if I seem to be a little frank at times. I am actually very much enjoying our debate, but my original point was that can a purely man-made law cause one to sin?

If ALL authority comes from God, then logic would dictate that by disobeying that authority you would be disobeying God, no matter how goofy the law would appear to be.

But then again, “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and give to God what is God’s” would be an indication to follow the Ten Commandments above man-made law. However, logically, this would be a contradiction to Paul saying that all authority comes from God. God cannot contradict himself by allowing a law to be created and then be overridden by one that’s already in place, can he? Maybe there’s a context to what Paul was saying that I’m missing here.

Yes a purely man made law can be binding in conscience thus under pain of sin.

The second part though is not correct…God is Logos…reason…meaning…not all laws are just and not all laws are intended to bind under pain of sin…

There is no contradiction to what Paul is saying…for one must take him in context and in the via the analogy of Faith…of course unjust laws …like sending Jews to their death in 1940’s Germany …are a different matter. And the fact that one did not observe some little penal law and was not caught…is different too.

The questions you ask are very extensive questions which can branch out into a lot of little tributaries…lots has I am sure been written on this vast subject But go back and read the little link i put prior from Fr. Hardon…it gives a start…

In any case in any discussion of laws it is important to recall that it is not all about laws…virtue is of great importance in the Christian Life. Striving for excellence…

 

[BobObob]

Sorry If I’m being a little goofy on this, but I was just wondering if because a human law was attached to an act…would that act then become sinful?

Short answer:
No, so long as the risk of being caught and having to pay the civil penalty is a risk you can take, and the act itself isn’t sinful in itself.

Longer answer:

Romans 13, as well as “give to Caesar what is Caesar’s” is overused and abused. Romans 13:1 says that there are no powers but for God and those powers ordained by God. However, extremely few powers are actually ordained by God. The Church has been given certain powers by God. Ancient Israel had authority from God through covenants. However, most civil governments are a creation of the elite (such as royalty) in that country, while a few (such as the US) were formed by contractual agreement of the representatives of the common people. Basically, most governments are formed by man to serve man’s interest.

In the US, the government was formed by the Constitution, the supreme law of the land. It is the contract which civil authority in the US is ultimately bound to. If they disobey it, they do not exercise authority legitimately. The US government disobeys the Constitution all the time, and thus, much of what the US government does isn’t fully legitimate.

The CCC disagrees with my position. However, the CCC is NOT infallible (although a few of the teachings in the CCC were infallible before the CCC existed). The CCC is, to a certain degree, authoritative, meaning that it is to be held as the official position of the Church (even though it could theoretically be wrong). It is possible for a Catholic to quietly disagree with particular teachings in the CCC and still be a Catholic in good standing. For more about this, see this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=458259

The CCC basically says that a civil law would make something sinful, unless a condition was met that negated it (an unjust law, CCC 2242). However, the CCC takes the position that all civil authority should be viewed as having a divine right to rule (CCC 2238). I strongly believe this teaching, which does not meet the conditions of papal infallibility, is flat out wrong.

If you’re driving on a 65mph road, but it happens to be safe to drive 75mph, and the risk of the civil consequences are such that you may morally take, than it wouldn’t be a sin for you to drive 75mph. However, if you are a single parent who needs to be around for your child, you may not morally do something that could put you in jail for an extended period of time, regardless of whether the thing is evil in itself, because you have a moral obligation toward the child (unless the principle of double effect comes into play).

 

[Bookcat]

Short answer:
No, so long as the risk of being caught and having to pay the civil penalty is a risk you can take, and the act itself isn’t sinful in itself.

This is only true of purely penal laws…other laws can be sinful to go against per se.

 

[BobObob]

This is only true of purely penal laws…other laws can be sinful to go against per se.

Explain your distinction between penal and non-penal laws.

Penalties are simply the means for the government to make people abide by the law. There are very few laws which don’t carry some sort of penalty/punishment to get people to comply. The ones that don’t usually don’t apply to the average person or aren’t very important (if it’s an unenforced law, it doesn’t do any public good).

It’s illegal to hang a rosary from your rear-view mirror in your car or to cut off a tag from a mattress. Does that make it a sin to do? I think not.

answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090227001250AAMFFd5
answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070828214909AA6ZPqr

 

[Stylites]

NOT exactly true. …for all legit authority IS from God…therefore a breaking of a just human law can very much be sinful.

Even breaking a just law is not a sin. Perhaps the action itself is sinful, and perhaps the law makes the action illegal, but sin only comes from breaking God’s Law, not merely human ones. “Render unto Caesar . . .”

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[Ponyguy]

Is breaking the law of man sinful?

Stated as bluntly and briefly as that is, I would have to say a qualified “No.”

I haven’t read any of the preceding pages of answers or discussion, so I am expressing my own thoughts here…

Obviously, it depends upon the law in question; murder, of course, is both illegal and mortally sinful. Theft of another’s property, perjury, and the like also violate both mankind’s laws as well as God’s laws. Exceeding the highway speed limit is not ordinarily a sin, unless your action endangers the life or well-being of other people. All too frequently, man’s laws are designed to involuntarily entrap an unwary victim, to wring and extort money or goods. (Consider Shylock in The Merchant of Venice…)

However, a law about something as convoluted as perhaps an alcohol, tobacco, or drug-related question opens an entirely new box of kittens. Jesus Himself consumed alcohol, and personal addiction to habit-forming substances is as old as history.

Throughout history, mankind has attempted, and failed, to improve upon God’s Ten Commandments. That ought to tell us all something.

Regards,
Ponyguy

 

[Stylites]

Explain your distinction between penal and non-penal laws.

Penalties are simply the means for the government to make people abide by the law. There are very few laws which don’t carry some sort of penalty/punishment to get people to comply. The ones that don’t usually don’t apply to the average person or aren’t very important (if it’s an unenforced law, it doesn’t do any public good).

It’s illegal to hang a rosary from your rear-view mirror in your car or to cut off a tag from a mattress. Does that make it a sin to do? I think not.

Good for you to see you asking such questions; the lazy mind just accepts whatsoever some politicians proscribe and call their blind following a ‘virtue’ whereas real virtue is in doing God’s will, not some politician’s will.

Henry David Thoreau had refused to pay a poll tax, and was imprisoned for his civil disobedience. A friend came to visit him and asked him, “What are you doing in prison?” to which he replied, “What are you doing OUT of prison?”

“I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!” Luke 12:4-5

Laws are a terror to the wicked, not the righteous. Saints have no use for laws at all, and if a Saint breaks a human law then he or she accepts the consequences for following their conscience. Standing by and allowing such an unjust thing might be a sin against justice.

.

 

[Stylites]

Theft of another’s property, perjury, and the like also violate both mankind’s laws as well as God’s laws.

Ah, but even in the case of theft there can be morally-licit reasons to steal from another.

The law has an important role to play in society, but we need much more than merely human laws in order to have a healthy, functioning society.

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[Bookcat]

Even breaking a just law is not a sin. Perhaps the action itself is sinful, and perhaps the law makes the action illegal, but sin only comes from breaking God’s Law, not merely human ones. “Render unto Caesar . . .”

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Not so. It can be a sin.

 

[Bookcat]

Explain your distinction between penal and non-penal laws.

Penalties are simply the means for the government to make people abide by the law. There are very few laws which don’t carry some sort of penalty/punishment to get people to comply. The ones that don’t usually don’t apply to the average person or aren’t very important (if it’s an unenforced law, it doesn’t do any public good).

It CAN be a sin. Again as stated above …not every law though.

As to purely penal laws --these have been said to be laws that are not sinful to break but if one breaks it one is oblige in conscience to pay the penalties.

It is not about if a law has a penalty or not …most laws have penalties.

 

[Bookcat]

Even breaking a just law is not a sin. Perhaps the action itself is sinful, and perhaps the law makes the action illegal, but sin only comes from breaking God’s Law, not merely human ones. “Render unto Caesar . . .”

.

As Paul puts it in Romans

*Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.*

It has been the understanding ever since then in the Church that one must obey lawful and just authorities …that one is obliged in conscience.

But again a law may be unjust etc or a authority be not legit…or they may not intend to bind the person in conscience…or it may be a purely penal law which is binding only in the sense of the penalty (though not all agreed here).

Again one must look at the particular law etc…

But in general yes…it is under the 4th commandment that one obey the lawful authority in their particular area etc…and yes it can be a sin…venial or mortal to disobey…(it would have to be something serious of course to be mortal) and one could say that there are many laws that are either purely penal in nature or which the law giver is not intending to bind in conscience…or that the intention of the law giver is actually lower than what is stated in the law…

Here are some aspects of it: catholicreference.net/index.cfm?id=34516

here is the Catechism:

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a4.htm#V

 

[Bookcat]

Again…it depends on the law etc…my point it is can be a sin…and it can also not be.