Breaking the Law

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Stated as bluntly and briefly as that is, I would have to say a qualified “No.”

However, a law about something as convoluted as perhaps an alcohol, tobacco, or drug-related question opens an entirely new box of kittens. Jesus Himself consumed alcohol, and personal addiction to habit-forming substances is as old as history.
I actually did start a thread about this topic, but instead of getting the sort of debate I was hoping for, people just judged me and gave me advice (Ha!).

At least now we have a good discussion going, and has opened my mind a bit. Thank you all for your contributions.
 
Not so. It can be a sin.
There is no sin in breaking a law. If someone commits murder, they can be sinning, but not because the law says murder is illegal. Only God determines what is right and wrong. Laws only establish what is acceptable or unacceptable behavior in a society, not what is right and wrong. This is an important distinction, and while a person can be correct in saying “breaking the law against murder is a sin,” they are not being precise as to the reason it’s a sin. Murder is a sin not because the law says it’s wrong; only because God says it’s wrong.

Sin only results from wrong-doing, not unacceptable-doing or intolerable-doing. Conferring upon politicians the ability to bind sins upon others is an affront to God.

“Render unto Caesar . . .”

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There is no sin in breaking a law.

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It is wrong to go against the authority given by God…thus yes it can be a sin to go against civil law…even if it does not break any more of the commandments…for one can break the 4th.

ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=578811&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=2009&Author=&Keyword=law&pgnu=5&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=218&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ID+DESC&start_at=

Again I would make more distinctions…
*
Only God determines what is right and wrong.*

Yes and HE has determined that we are to follow the legit authority…,that it can be wrong to break the laws set by them

Conferring upon politicians the ability to bind sins upon others is an affront to God.

Actually no…it is GOD who confers it.
 
This brings me back to my original argument, that the attachment of a human law to an action does not make it sinful. (Read back to my sidewalk analogy).

I know that it can be, but that isn’t the issue here.

The only issue that I can foresee is that if you are breaking a man-made law that does not contradict the divine law, is that it could cause scandal or possibly cause another to sin.
 
The only issue that I can foresee is that if you are breaking a man-made law that does not contradict the divine law, is that it could cause scandal or possibly cause another to sin.
By breaking the man made law…one can be breaking in* just doing that * the law of God…it is called the fourth commandment…

They have authority from GOD …

But again…it is not a simple yes or no…see above :0
 
By breaking the man made law…one can be breaking in* just doing that * the law of God…it is called the fourth commandment…

They have authority from GOD …
And then we go back into the loop of discerning ‘legit’ authority from authority and ‘penal’ laws from other laws? 🙂
 
And then we go back into the loop of discerning ‘legit’ authority from authority and ‘penal’ laws from other laws? 🙂
Of course…men are creatures of reason…we must use it 🙂

But in general…we just follow the laws of the land unless they contradict other laws of God …they then loose their authority from him…
 
It CAN be a sin. Again as stated above …not every law though.

As to purely penal laws --these have been said to be laws that are not sinful to break but if one breaks it one is oblige in conscience to pay the penalties.

It is not about if a law has a penalty or not …most laws have penalties.
So you differentiate between penal laws and other laws by saying penal laws aren’t sinful per se to break, but you must pay the penalty, while other laws are sinful per se to break? Am I interpreting you correctly? If so, what is the criteria in your mind that differentiates the two?
As Paul puts it in Romans…
Romans 13, like I stated in post 30, refers to only God, and God ordained authority. All modern civil governments are the creation of MAN, not God, and thus Romans 13 does not apply to them.
But in general yes…it is under the 4th commandment that one obey the lawful authority in their particular area etc…
The fourth commandment obliges us to obey authority to the extent that that particular authority has rights over us. Children are obligated to obey their parents because God gave the children to the care of the parents. However, it’s very unhealthy in general to view the government as a parent.
The CCC is a useful tool because it is, as JPII put it, a compendium of the teachings of the CC, that is to be a “sure norm” for local catechisms and for teaching the Catholic faith. However, it is just that. It does not fall under papal infallibility, even though it is authoritative to a certain extent. For more see this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=458259
They have authority from GOD …
This is extremely dangerous.

So many leaders have used this as an excuse for having power that man gave them, and/or for their abuse of such power.

They don’t have authority from God. Leaders in the CC, and some leaders in ancient Israel (such as Moses and Joshua) may have had authority from God, but not modern civil governments. Could you cite a specific modern civil government that you think has authority FROM GOD? They might have some authority from man, but that is much different…
 
So you differentiate between penal laws and other laws by saying penal laws aren’t sinful per se to break, but you must pay the penalty, while other laws are sinful per se to break? Am I interpreting you correctly? If so, what is the criteria in your mind that differentiates the two?

(NOT YELLING )

THE KIND OF LAW IT IS. THE INTENTION OF THE LAW GIVER.

Romans 13, like I stated in post 30, refers to only God, and God ordained authority. All modern civil governments are the creation of MAN, not God, and thus Romans 13 does not apply to them.

NOPE NOT WHAT PAUL SAID. NOT WHAT THE CHURCH TEACHES…THIS COMES UNDER THE FOURTH COMMANDMENT.

The fourth commandment obliges us to obey authority to the extent that that particular authority has rights over us. Children are obligated to obey their parents because God gave the children to the care of the parents. However, it’s very unhealthy in general to view the government as a parent.

YES OF COURSE. BUT THE LEGIT AUTHORITY (JUST ETC) OF LEADERS IS FROM GOD …AND COMES UNDER THE 4TH COMMANDMENT–THIS IS THE TEACHING OF THE CHURCH. IT IS NOT LIKE PARENT TO CHILD…BUT IT DOES COME UNDER THIS COMMANDMENT…

The CCC is a useful tool because it is, as JPII put it, a compendium of the teachings of the CC, that is to be a “sure norm” for local catechisms and for teaching the Catholic faith. However, it is just that. It does not fall under papal infallibility, even though it is authoritative to a certain extent. For more see this thread:

IT IS STILL THE TEACHING OF THE CHURCH…AND THIS HAS LONG BEEN THE CASE…AND THIS IS THE 4TH COMMANDMENT. (AND OF COURSE WE FOLLOW ALL OF THE TEACHINGS NOT JUST THOSE THAT ARE INFALLIBLE.)

This is extremely dangerous.

YES EVEN A PARENT CAN GO BEYOND THEIR AUTHORITY OR DO THINGS WRONG…BUT THIS DOES NOT REMOVE THEIR AUTHORITY…JUST IN THAT MATTER THEY DID WRONG ETC

So many leaders have used this as an excuse for having power that man gave them, and/or for their abuse of such power.

They don’t have authority from God. Leaders in the CC, and some leaders in ancient Israel (such as Moses and Joshua) may have had authority from God, but not modern civil governments. Could you cite a specific modern civil government that you think has authority FROM GOD? They might have some authority from man, but that is much different…

YES THEIR AUTHORITY COMES FROM GOD.

YES PERSONS HAVE ABUSED SUCH IN THE PAST…AND CARE MUST BE TAKEN IN UNDERSTANDING WHAT THIS ALL MEANS…NOT SOMETHING THAT CAN BE DONE WELL IN A FORUM LIKE THIS…BEST TO READ THE CCC AND OTHER SOURCES FROM THE CHURCH OR GOOD THEOLOGIANS.

AND AGAIN…THERE ARE MANY THINGS TO BE CONSIDERED IN PARTICULAR CASES…CHIEF AMONG THEM IS THAT LAWS CANNOT BE IMMORAL ETC…THEN IT IS AN INVALID LAW ETC…
 
When Paul says In Romans 13:

*Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.*

He is speaking of secular authorities as well (and actually here of them in particular) …in this case those of the Roman Empire.

One was even to pay the Roman taxes for this reason:
*
For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. *

Of course where a law was not according to God Paul would say we would obey God (for the very reason we look to human authorities is due to God)

But again this all must be understood correctly…and there is much that can be said…but one can read the Catechism, the Social Doctrine of the Church etc and orthodox Catholic Theologians for the ins and outs of this…
 
Does Billy Graham have a daily newspaper article where you live? I seem to remember he had addressed this issue in one of the past weeks articles. He seemed to feel adament about following the law precisely.

Though I also believe you need to so. I don’t believe getting a MV Ticket in small town USA requires confession. Without a doubt common sense comes into play here.
 
Bookcat,

It seems that you think all authority is from God. This seems to be the central theme in your thesis, by which your entire view hinges. How do you justify it?

You cite Romans 13, in which Paul mentions authority of God and authority ordained by God and assume that by this Paul is referring to ALL civil authority. How do you justify this jump?

Paul said to pay taxes to the authorities he talked about, but man-made and man-empowered governments don’t exactly qualify as authorities that Paul was talking about.

Government is a creation OF MAN to protect certain rights according to the Declaration of Independence, which says, “That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.” (earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/freedom/doi/text.html )

Of course, the Declaration of Independence is a fallible, man-made document, but so is the CCC. The CCC isn’t really totally authoritative either. The strongest statement a pope regarding the authoritativeness of the CCC were the words “sure norm”, which is a long way away from saying “you must hold X to be true.” (vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_jp-ii_apc_19921011_fidei-depositum_en.html) So when the CCC makes a particular statement, it is possible for a Catholic to disagree.

If there were no government, there would be the chaos of anarchy, and society wouldn’t function. Thus, men throughout history have created police forces (governments) to keep things in order. To accomplish this, governments must be given powers, which are given to them rightly by the consent of the governed (perhaps through representitives). When this happens, it is man creating government, not God, and thus its just power is from the people.

You said that you differentiate between penal laws and other laws based off of the kind of the law it is and the intention of the lawmakers. However, most lawmakers read only brief summaries of the laws they pass, and many times do it for political reasons. Plus, almost all laws have some sort of unintended consequence. I’m not saying you don’t realize this, but most laws would seem to fall under your categorization of penal laws.

Now, I file a 1040 form every year to the American federal government (although there is no law that requires the average American to pay a personal federal income tax, answerbag.com/q_view/111339 ). I do this not because I actually owe the government money, but because if I didn’t, I could get myself in trouble. I pay the US federal government for the same reason someone might pay the mafia.
 
Bookcat,

It seems that you think all authority is from God.
Again what Paul says does apply…and it has been the understanding of the Church that all legit authority comes from God (even if it is elected by the People etc)…there is not authority that does not come from God. It is what Paul is saying and what the Church has said over the centuries.

The Catechism is an authoritative document. Yes various articles have various degrees of authority . And the individual doctrine which the Catechism presents receive no other weight than that which they already possess. Something that was not already infallible does not become infallible by it being in the Catechism. But then again …many things are infallible or are of a high degree of authority or of simple Divine Revelation and thus the Word of God. And of course one does not just pick and choose among the teachings of the Church as to what to follow…(not saying you are saying this)

By the way (without getting into an argument about US Law and taxes) the Church teaches we are to pay taxes…so there is a moral obligation to do so…(though there can be cases where perhaps it does not apply).

In any case I noted that once we get from the general principle into the various details etc…it can become more complex. (not wanting to go there)…

In general…the authority of any legit authority comes from God. The fourth commandment includes this…so one can simply say one is to follow the laws of the land…unless they go against God or there are other reasons where they become invalid or due to their nature one may simply accept the penalty if it is applied etc…

Law: catholicreference.net/index.cfm?id=34516

It is certainly the case that authentic authority comes from God and citizens are bound in conscience to obey when it is exorcised rightly. Of course there is all sorts of questions here and various rights etc…but this is the general principle.

And Paul affirms that authority comes from God…not only that in the Church but civil authority and that in the Family for example.
 
It is clear, therefore, that the political community and public authority are founded on human nature and hence belong to the order designed by God, even though the choice of a political regime and the appointment of rulers are left to the free will of citizens.(3)

It follows also that political authority, both in the community as such and in the representative bodies of the state, must always be exercised within the limits of the moral order and directed toward the common good—with a dynamic concept of that good—according to the juridical order legitimately established or due to be established. When authority is so exercised, citizens are bound in conscience to obey.(4) Accordingly, the responsibility, dignity and importance of leaders are indeed clear.

But where citizens are oppressed by a public authority overstepping its competence, they should not protest against those things which are objectively required for the common good; but it is legitimate for them to defend their own rights and the rights of their fellow citizens against the abuse of this authority, while keeping within those limits drawn by the natural law and the Gospels.

GAUDIUM ET SPES 74
 
Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Catholic Church

c. The early Christian communities
  1. *Submission, not passive but “for the sake of conscience” (Rom 13:5), to legitimate authority responds to the order established by God. *Saint Paul defines the relationships and duties that a Christian is to have towards the authorities (cf. Rom 13:1-7)…
*Saint Peter exhorts Christians to “be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution” *(1 Pet 2:13). …

III. POLITICAL AUTHORITY

a. The foundation of political authority
  1. The Church has always considered different ways of understanding authority, taking care to defend and propose a model of authority that is founded on the social nature of the person. “Since God made men social by nature, and since no society can hold together unless some one be over all, directing all to strive earnestly for the common good, every civilized community must have a ruling authority, and this authority, no less than society itself, has its source in nature, and has, consequently, God for its author”.[799] Political authority is therefore necessary [800] because of the responsibilities assigned to it. Political authority is and must be a positive and irreplaceable component of civil life.[801]
  2. Authority must enact just laws, that is, laws that correspond to the dignity of the human person and to what is required by right reason. “Human law is law insofar as it corresponds to right reason and therefore is derived from the eternal law. When, however, a law is contrary to reason, it is called an unjust law; in such a case it ceases to be law and becomes instead an act of violence”.[816] Authority that governs according to reason places citizens in a relationship not so much of subjection to another person as of obedience to the moral order and, therefore, to God himself who is its ultimate source.[817] Whoever refuses to obey an authority that is acting in accordance with the moral order “resists what God has appointed” (Rom 13:2).[818] Analogously, whenever public authority — which has its foundation in human nature and belongs to the order pre-ordained by God [819] — fails to seek the common good, it abandons its proper purpose and so delegitimizes itself.
 
Again what Paul says does apply…

And Paul affirms that authority comes from God…not only that in the Church but civil authority and that in the Family for example.
When Paul talked about authority in Romans 13, he specifically referred to God’s authority, and authority that had been given by God. Do you have any evidence that his use of the word “authority” was implicitly referring authority other than that which had been ordained by God?
The Catechism is an authoritative document. Yes various articles have various degrees of authority . And the individual doctrine which the Catechism presents receive no other weight than that which they already possess. Something that was not already infallible does not become infallible by it being in the Catechism. But then again …many things are infallible or are of a high degree of authority or of simple Divine Revelation and thus the Word of God. And of course one does not just pick and choose among the teachings of the Church as to what to follow…(not saying you are saying this)
I haven’t seen any Church teaching that would make me think that the mere status of illegality of something in a modern country would make it immoral for me to do. It could take forever if I wanted to thoroughly explain that.
By the way (without getting into an argument about US Law and taxes) the Church teaches we are to pay taxes…so there is a moral obligation to do so…(though there can be cases where perhaps it does not apply).
We may be morally required to pay taxes if there is a law that mandates it.

In a republic (which is a country which is rule by law, such as what the US is supposed to be), if there is no law that mandates paying taxes, than the government has no right to enforce those taxes.
In general…the authority of any legit authority comes from God. The fourth commandment includes this…so one can simply say one is to follow the laws of the land…unless they go against God or there are other reasons where they become invalid or due to their nature one may simply accept the penalty if it is applied etc…
It is certainly the case that authentic authority comes from God and citizens are bound in conscience to obey when it is exorcised rightly
The fact that something comes from God is what makes it legit (under the fourth commandment), not the other way around. The other way around would be to say that every authority that is legit happens to have God’s blessing.

An authority may be legit in other ways not related to the forth commandment. If you are working under contract or mutual agreement for someone, it is that contract or mutual agreement which would make your bosses authority (which has boundaries) legit. The authority of a boss over an employee is not the same as that of a parent over a child, since the parent’s authority is from God.

The forth commandment is “honor thy father and mother.” (Exodus 20:12) It may implicitly extend to other authority, but only to authority that is God-ordained IMHO.

One may argue that governments may have authority over individuals through “social contract”, and I would largely agree with this. Someone may be obligated, to certain, extents, to comply with a government that he has “consented to” and entered into a “contract” with. By gaining the benefits of having a government, he may realize the costs, and may be willing to take the risk of paying heavier costs if he breaks a law by doing something that isn’t intrinsically wrong.

BTW, Gaudium et Spes (vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_cons_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html ) is a pastoral document, not a defining document:

“I do not think the Fathers of the Council were malicious in approving this phrase, for though they approved the document by vote and signature, the method of approbation left few of them with any time to read and study the text with due consideration. They proceeded in just this manner, because as Pope Paul VI said (quoted above) they did not intend to impose a definition or infallible teaching upon the Church; just issue a statement, in this case, on the friendly relationship the Church seeks with the world of the present. But that is another matter all together. Certainly, the Pope, being responsible more than the Bishops, cannot, however be excused if he allows this error to remain un-refuted.”

franciscan-archive.org/apologetica/ges-n24b.html

Regarding 1 Peter 2:13, you have to consider it in context.

1 Peter was addressed to “Strangers scattered through Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia (1 Peter 1:1). Thus, it had a pastoral purpose and meaning for that time, as well as purpose and meaning in the Bible. In you want to consider 1 Peter 2:13 (which was primarily addressed to a previous age) as absolutely referring to the present, than it seems you be against current slaves running from their masters (see 1 Peter 2:18).

I don’t mean to seem argumentative, but the Compendium of Social Doctrine of the Church isn’t infallible and isn’t authoritative in the sense that it would be a sin for a Catholic to disagree…
 
Driving recklessly is a sin, as it endangers others and is a sin against charity from a lack of patience. That a law proscribes against driving recklessly does not confer spiritual guilt upon the transgressor, it merely means that there’s a secular penalty to a specific action. The spiritual guilt is incurred by how it affected the driver and others, not because a man-made law was broken.

Perhaps an individual is so adept at driving that he or she has the ability to maintain precise control of a car and can appear to be driving recklessly whereas in fact there is no recklessness occuring, and no one is directly endangered by his actions. Even then, the spiritual sin incurred might be from scandal, or from the extraordinary abilities of the driver causing confusion and fear in others with average abilities. Breaking the law? Yes. Sin incurred? Probably, but not because the law says it’s unacceptable behavior.

Perhaps there is a medical emergency, and a driver is having to safely speed for the purpose of saving a life. Breaking the law? Yes. Sin incurred? Probably not, even if the law proscribes a penalty. Refusing to pay a secular penalty might incur spiritual guilt, again not because Caesar demanded it but because of scandal to others.

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