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SamH
Guest
Being in Oklahoma doesn’t mean any of the things you admit are only possible.
Breaking: Wisconsin Supreme Court reinstates Walker’s collective bargaining law
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Rich_Olszewski
Guest
So, a teacher falsely accused of doing something improper or of using foul language has no recourse except the civil courts? At the school where my wife taught, an Assistant Principal was accused of improperly touching one of the front office workers. All the teachers knew, based on the man’s reputation, that it had to be false. Thanks to the union, the secretary who made the accusation, retracted what she said. She had been angry at the man.
In Oklahoma, then, he would have been fired, and would have had to get private counsel at who knows what cost to defend him. Oklahoma rewards false accusations by disallowing a defense for a teacher by his or her representative. So much for Oklahoma.
meltzerboy
New member
Do they teach in a large city, a suburb, or a rural area? It makes a difference.
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Rich_Olszewski
Guest
Why funny? Strange senses of humor.
My wife, teaching in Brooklyn, NY would take that opinion seriously, true, and not laughable (?) at all.
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rlg94086
Guest
That pretty much sums up the union philosophy. If 100s of thousands of children have to suffer from poor instruction from incompetent teachers, it’s okay as long as one falsely accused good teacher gets to keep her job.So, a teacher falsely accused of doing something improper or of using foul language has no recourse except the civil courts? At the school where my wife taught, an Assistant Principal was accused of improperly touching one of the front office workers. All the teachers knew, based on the man’s reputation, that it had to be false. Thanks to the union, the secretary who made the accusation, retracted what she said. She had been angry at the man.
In Oklahoma, then, he would have been fired, and would have had to get private counsel at who knows what cost to defend him. Oklahoma rewards false accusations by disallowing a defense for a teacher by his or her representative. So much for Oklahoma.
Read the New Yorker article Bob posted…unless that’s too conservative of a source for you.
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bbarrick8383
Guest
I know sounds horrible doesn’t it. The problem is before the change, had he improperly touched her, he’d be drawing a paycheck while the school had to pay who knows what cost to go through the court system to fire him.So, a teacher falsely accused of doing something improper or of using foul language has no recourse except the civil courts? At the school where my wife taught, an Assistant Principal was accused of improperly touching one of the front office workers. All the teachers knew, based on the man’s reputation, that it had to be false. Thanks to the union, the secretary who made the accusation, retracted what she said. She had been angry at the man.
In Oklahoma, then, he would have been fired, and would have had to get private counsel at who knows what cost to defend him. Oklahoma rewards false accusations by disallowing a defense for a teacher by his or her representative. So much for Oklahoma.
Either way someone’s going to get screwed and it shouldn’t be the school whose trying to spen ad much time and money possible to educate children.
We decided that the school boards were the proper and final authority when it comes to firing the teachers. It only makes sense, and if there is an occasional screw up in the defense of an employee and he loses his job over it, well it’s worth it.
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Rich_Olszewski
Guest
So, Oklahoma would prefer to screw a hard-working teacher by accepting a false charge from a disgruntled employee. BTW, the school board has far more money than a man trying to recover his reputation.
It’s worth dumping an employee falsely accused of misconduct? So much for Oklahoma.
meltzerboy
New member
So you believe the end justifies the means? Remind me whose philosophy that is.That pretty much sums up the union philosophy. If 100s of thousands of children have to suffer from poor instruction from incompetent teachers, it’s okay as long as one falsely accused good teacher gets to keep her job.
Read the New Yorker article Bob posted…unless that’s too conservative of a source for you.
To think that teachers’ unions want students to suffer from poor instruction is incorrect. That doesn’t mean we must sacrifice due process, however. If good teachers get fired because of trumped-up charges, everyone suffers.
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bbarrick8383
Guest
It is more often the case that the person should be fired than not. Schools may have more money, but they require more money to operate. If the teachers innocent, and their is any question as to whether or not he’s guilty, he can be given references to work at another school. If he really was guilty, eventually he will be fired from that job as well.
You can look at it as looking out for the teacher all you want. I call it looking out for the well being of the education system and children. Which before all this was really good aloud here, at one time we had the opportunity to attend schools that offered art, woodworking, multiple language classes, a well funded band.
All of that went downhill when teachers unions got ahold of the system. Hopefully by the time my children are in high school they will have those opportunities back.
The high school I graduated from didn’t have great extracuricular opportunities but at one time they could afford to draw in the best math, english and science teachers in the area. That’s no longer the case with them either.
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Rich_Olszewski
Guest
The union did what it was supposed to do - defend a teacher falsely accused of misconduct. What do incompetent teachers have to do with the case?
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Rich_Olszewski
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If you are fired for misconduct, you don’t get references.
No, I look at it as upholding basic decency and due process. Conservatives tend to worship the Constitution, but I can see that it goes by the board at their convenience, which is the case when a falsely accused person isn’t given due process.
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bbarrick8383
Guest
From what I’ve seen of unions they will defend a person guilty or not, competent or not. Their priority list begins with union dues and may or may not end somewhere around students best interests.
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rlg94086
Guest
I believe in unions and due process, but the teachers’ unions have made it near impossible to fire an incompetent teacher. They are okay with that; therefore they are okay with students suffering from poor instruction.
Citing an individual case of a wrongly accused teacher the union saved to justify the harm the tenure system has done to our kids is sad and pathetic.
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SamH
Guest
I notice that you specifically avoid any pay scale based upon job performance - you know how well they they actually teach in classroom.
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rlg94086
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SamH
Guest
It’s laugh or cry. To claim that unions like the NEA are concerned about the students is joke.
In 2009, after 41 years as the nations top education lawyer for the National Education Association, Bob Chanin gave his farewell address in which he said it’s not about kids, but about power.
“**Despite what some among us would like to believe it is not because of our creative ideas. It is not because of the merit of our positions. It is not because we care about children and it is not because we have a vision of a great public school for every child. NEA and its affiliates are effective advocates because we have power.” **
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Rich_Olszewski
Guest
Oh? How many hearings have you attended that were concerned with teacher misconduct?
I don’t know if you are aware of it, but in the United States, any accused person is entitled to due process. Maybe in Oklahoma, a person is judged guilty before a hearing has made a decision, but in Arkansas and New York at least, there is a presumption of innocence, so the union defends any teacher until found guilty.
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bbarrick8383
Guest
Like I said, if there are any questions. Just because the teacher got fired over the accusation, doesn’t mean the school board felt they were guilty. They may come to the that decision based on other factors as well.
The school board is their due process. They can present their argument to those elected members who are there to serve the schools best interests. Most likely they will listen to the accuser as well and make a decision based on what’s presented to them.
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SamH
Guest
Because the union will just as vigerously defend a tenured incompetent teacher. I’ve seen it and I’ve dealt with it. I will also probably deal with it again next fall.
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Rich_Olszewski
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