Breastfeeding and the breast

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JimmyTolder said:
To claim the superiority of Christian culture over pagan culture is simple fact. To claim a more modest culture is not superior, at least as it pertains to modesty, to a less modest culture is insanity. Likewise, to claim that a culture of general nudity is, by virtue of the nudity being general, as modest (in relation to dress) as a culture where the general habit is to wear clothing is also insane.
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Except “modesty” isn’t even a virtue, but a particular way of expressing certain virtues (generally chastity and humility). Nor is modesty simply defined in terms of having more flesh covered, but in being dressed in an appropriate manner to one’s time, place, and function. The reduction of the idea of modesty to simply how much skin a person does or does not cover is not good, nor is it accurate to either the scriptures or the teachings of tradition.
 
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Modesty is a virtue. Different to the secular meaning of modesty - how much flesh is bared or not bared e.g. dressing modestly which can be alluring to the male eyes.

The Virtue of Modesty

ETA - Catholic Dictionary - Modesty - " Four virtues are commonly included under modesty: humility, studiousness, and two kinds of external modesty, namely in dress and general behavior. "
(Humility is included as DarkLight said)

CCC #2521-2524, 2533
 
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Jerusha said:
The mother should not allow the baby to think that an uncovered breast is a normal thing.
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Of course it is a normal thing.

When a baby is born, the first think that the midwife, or the mother herself, should do is too put the put the baby on her naked belly with free access to breast, skin to skin contact.

Many babies don’t like either have a cover under their head or have too much clothes that cover around themselves. They push everything to have more space to nurse, see and cuddle the breasts/skin. It is also help them to developp themselves.

I agree that putting a cover since the beginning could help them to accept it, but I would never do that. Too late for them, and excentric as a practice in my geographical area. I find it is sad to burden oneself with that, but I will not object, if it makes you feel better.
 
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I think that one of the problem is that many people are not used to see a breastfeeding woman because it is so usual in many western areas. So when it happenned, they are annoyed and don’t know how to react. Should they look or not? It is tempting to look, but look to much is impolite? Is that wrong to see some of the woman’s skin?

They just don’t know how to adapt their behaviour, because they have not learnt a code.

I have look very few woman how breastfeed before doing myself. I love that one do it near me, but I was embarassed, I didn’t know how to react!
 
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@JimmyTolder,

Thanks you for your references of Pope XI on modesty. It is interesting, but also the reflect of the fashion’s criterias of modesty of a part of history.

For exemple, I disagree that the lengt of the skirt is enough. And the document even agree that because this lenght od sleeves is no longer available in stores, shorter lenght are admitted.

If we look at the minimum standart of modesty for clothing admitted to go to the Vatican, it is a little different.

To conclude, standarts are very cultural and different through history.
 
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Yikes! I’d be using any air conditioner available on such a day.
 
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There are many types of body language that some people from the Mideast, and/or Islam, find offensive. If I am around someone who might be offended, I try to avoid those gestures. I don’t analyze them, I don’t tell them You’re in the USA now, Get with the program.

As time goes on, they will likely adapt, grow less sensitive, but in the meantime, I will adapt a little.
 
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commenter said:
There are many types of body language that some people from the Mideast, and/or Islam, find offensive. If I am around someone who might be offended, I try to avoid those gestures. I don’t analyze them, I don’t tell them You’re in the USA now, Get with the program.

As time goes on, they will likely adapt, grow less sensitive, but in the meantime, I will adapt a little.
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I get what you are saying, but breastfeeding needs to be normalized among those who find it uncomfortable. Frequent exposure over time will help with their problem and it is their problem. If a person felt the same way about being around someone in a wheelchair, a feeding tube, or an oxygen tank, would you take the same aporoach? How about if the discomfort is about being around a person of color?
 
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It’s likely elderly persons we are talking about. I know some posters have implied people who are uncomfortable with breastfeeding in public are sexual perverts, but the reality is most Americans who grew up several decades in small towns, had different cultural norms, for squeemishness, than persons raised recently.

Why doesn’t our diversity, our inclusiveness, include seniors?
 
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commenter said:
It’s likely elderly persons we are talking about. I know some posters have implied people who are uncomfortable with breastfeeding in public are sexual perverts, but the reality is most Americans who grew up several decades in small towns, had different cultural norms, for squeemishness, than persons raised recently.

Why doesn’t our diversity, our inclusiveness, include seniors?
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I definitely don’t agree that people who are uncomfortable with breastfeeding are perverts, but I don’t think that it is limited to the elderly. I suppose the elderly might be disproportionately represented.

But take one of my examples and apply it to an elderly woman. Let’s say that she is seated at Church next to a man with a deformed and twisted body who requires some medical equipment. Or let’s say he’s a few rows away, but her eyes are drawn to this person. She is disgusted, but she just can’t bring herself to look away. In her day, such people were kept in institutions and the normal people didn’t have to deal with them! The man is uncomfortable, his caregivers are uncomfortable, people witnessing the old woman’s reaction are uncomfortable. Everybody’s discomfort could be solved by The Man simply moving to where he can’t be seen. But is that the right thing to do? Whose best interest does it serve to marginalize that man because of the passing discomfort of a few people?

This isn’t to say that we should lack compassion for the elderly woman. She can be offered alternative seating if necessary. It is hard to change, but with more exposure, she would become more comfortable, though she may not ever like it.
 
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I don’t think this squeamishness is limited to seniors, nor do I think it’s about perversion. But in the case of breastfeeding, the needs and comfort of both mother and baby trump (excuse the expression) the needs of the squeamish.
 
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Well, sure. But some people could be uncomfortable with the elderly as well. As I look around at Mass I find lots of things that I am squeamish about. An oxygen machine that makes a rhythmic noise, a person wearing a mask, a person coughing or having a phlegm issue. I see wheelchairs. As a matter of fact we have a large homeless population in our parish as it is downtown. I am uncomfortable with many things involved. But I don’t think the solution is to ask these people to leave, to create a special place for them so they don’t bother the “normal” people. Nor do I think it is Christlike to discuss having them alter their life for my comfort.

If we are talking about an older person who is squeamish about breastfeeding then we have a problem. We, as a society, need to stop with the idea that just because someone is old that they are excused from societal normalcy. That applies to language or ideas that older generations may have on any number of sexual or racial ideals as well.

Teens and the elderly many times have a ton in common. In this case we shortchange this particular group and disrespect their humanity by implying they are incapable of grasping the theology of the Mass and the Biology of a baby and a mother.
 
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The vast majority of the time I think that the accusations of the Church as a sexually repressed and a misogynistic animal are so absolutely ridiculous.

In my opinion female representation in the Church is far more prevalent than male. And some of the arguments for ordination, or sexual liberalness are absolutely asinine.

But then, we have a debate on the modesty of women in a parish who are breastfeeding and I realize “whoa, maybe there is a problem with our male run “bride” of Christ.”

But then I also realize that it isn’t just a Church that has this issue, but rather our whole modern world that thinks that breastfeeding is something that needs to be censored while every other sexual issue is open conversation on TV, or even at a parade. A sign of maternal life, a sign of the vocation of women and the nurturing of life is of course a squeamish thing to those who don’t want to ever be bothered by this concept of family, procreation, marriage, and nurturing.
But we talk all day in front of little ones about gay marriage, and gender identity. Good grief.

Bottom line a woman breastfeeding in Church is just as much practicing her vocation as the priest who is consecrating the Eucharist.

Rant over.
 
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I can’t find it now… perhaps it was in another thread… but someone recently called the breastfeeding covers or blankets used for that purpose “booby burkas.” I LOVE THAT.

It’s exactly what they are.

Thank you, whoever you are 🤓
 
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Forgive me, too impulsive person.
( There are too many people the same as me)
When I see a nursing woman, I certainly avert my eyes and continue on my way, but I will lie if I say that the open chest of a young woman is not a moment’s delight.
Therefore, I am sure that nursing in public is permissible of course with considerations:
She must remain covered, by moderate standards–which is possible by using appropriate coverings;
She should choose a place that, in her societal context, is appropriate and dignified, whenever possible.
 
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babochka said:
But take one of my examples and apply it to an elderly woman. Let’s say that she is seated at Church next to a man with a deformed and twisted body who requires some medical equipment. Or let’s say he’s a few rows away, but her eyes are drawn to this person. She is disgusted, but she just can’t bring herself to look away. In her day, such people were kept in institutions and the normal people didn’t have to deal with them! The man is uncomfortable, his caregivers are uncomfortable, people witnessing the old woman’s reaction are uncomfortable. Everybody’s discomfort could be solved by The Man simply moving to where he can’t be seen. But is that the right thing to do? Whose best interest does it serve to marginalize that man because of the passing discomfort of a few people?
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As an older person - I don’t agree with your example. In my circle of family, friends of whom are around my age, including an acquaintance of one lady who will be 93 in September - no one would be discomforted from someone who is physically impaired, for example Professor Stephen Hawking who had ALS. We wouldn’t be so inconsiderate or ill-mannerred or so insensitive to not turn our eyes away discreetly so the gentleman would not be made to feel embarrassed/ashamed/discomfited.

Back in the 60s and even the 70s (not discounting earlier than that) people who were impaired either physically or mentally were kept inside and rarely seen in public. But that was then, and not now.
babochka said:
She can be offered alternative seating if necessary.
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So she is marginalized instead, because the people in your example are momentarily discomfitted (lets put the shoe on the other foot for a moment), I’m sure this does happen, that there are people who do feel they are made to feel uncomfortable, but then there are others who are confident enough to not care as they see it as being the other persons issue, and not theirs. As it sometimes is.

I’ll try to be tactful here, so forgive me if I’m not. The whole issue with a breast exposed for all the world to see, is that from a mans’ perspective (speaking as a woman), breasts have sexual attraction. Women were taught to keep their breasts appropriately covered, unless they wished to be eyeballed/ogled. I also think of how some men don’t have an issue with groping women. Whilst all this is not related to the breast issue specifically, I have tried to explain what for some people may be behind their views of why babies being breastfed should be done discreetly. After all, how many women are uncomfortable with a man scratching his nether regions whilst in public? And yes, there is the sexual pervert aspect, but there is also uncomfortable underwear, sweat and some health issues.
continued below
 
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continued
And whilst a man is responsible for custody of his eyes, there is also the matter of giving scandal (as the church means it and not as secular society means it). I think giving scandal is a forgotten sin and not often discussed.

I personally prefer a mother to breastfeed discreetly whether that be using a shawl, or a slightly raised top or a maternity breast feeding blouse, rather than just exposing the whole breast from collarbone to waist.
 
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Generally speaking, men who are used to seeing women breastfeed openly don’t find it arousing, and the act of feeding a baby is very different from the use of breasts as an erogenous zone. If breastfeeding were normalized then we wouldn’t have to be concerned about “giving scandal”. Given the fact that open breastfeeding is often more comfortable for the infant and mother there is no reason to insist on hiding it away; if a mother and child are comfortable with a sheet, blanket, or other cover then fine, but we don’t need to make it into a moral imperative.

If we are really worried about scandal and virtue then we should be working towards normalizing healthy human behavior rather than insisting that it be treated as scandalous. I personally find it scandalous that normal, non-sexual bodily functions are treated as being inherently sexual or arousing. There are reasons for performing certain actions discreetly, but breastfeeding is about as harmless and asexual as the human body gets.

Peace and God bless!
 
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IdaCatholic said:
In reality you see more breast with most outfits some women wear to Church.
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No kidding. Coming out of Mass today there was a young woman (maybe 20 or so) dressed rather… well… umm… I was tempted to ask her “miss, do you always come to church just in your underwear?”. This at a very conservative and orthodox Benedictine abbey.

I’m by no means an old prude but there are limits.

Fortunately I’m at the gnarly age where I’m far more excited at the prospect of sitting down to a wonderful Islay single-malt whiskey… which is exactly what I’m doing as I write this.
 
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MYOB or…

Let us not therefore judge one another any more. But judge this rather, that you put not a stumblingblock or a scandal in your brother’s way. [14] I know, and am confident in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean of itself; but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. [15] [For if, because of thy meat, thy brother be grieved, thou walkest not now according to charity. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.]?
 
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