Breviary: Confraternity of Sts Peter and Paul

[Franciscanus]

This organization promotes the Traditional breviary on- line and for the i Phone in a detailed and beautiful manner. My question is simply: Are they a valid ecclesial organization which supports Pope Francis or are they in the sedevacantist camp?. It can be confusing these days to know which is which?
Thanks for your help.

Franciscanus

 

[OraLabora]

They cannot possibly be in communion, as their bylaws state this:

The purpose for which the Confraternity is organized is to preserve and promote the Traditional Rites of the Church; viz.

 to sponsor and conduct the Tridentine Latin Mass and to promote the exclusive celebration thereof;

   to sponsor and conduct the traditional sacramental rites of the Church, and to promote the exclusive administration thereof;

and in particular to sponsor and maintain the traditional Divine Office, and to promote the exclusive use thereof.

In the accomplishment of these purposes regarding the celebration of the Tridentine Latin Mass, the administration of the traditional Catholic sacraments, and primarily the use of the traditional Divine Office, the Confraternity shall observe the following provisions and restrictions in regard to the term Traditional Rites of the Church:

The Traditional Rites of the Church, are defined, for the purposes of this document, as “those prayers, rites and ceremonies used for the celebration of Mass, the administration of the Sacraments, and other liturgical rites found in liturgical books (with the exception of the so-called New Psalter) approved by the Holy See for use in the Roman Rite of the Roman Catholic Church no later than the year 1950." This definition, however, shall not necessarily be deemed to exclude Propers for certain feastdays later approved during the reign of Pope Pius XII and which did not involve the replacement or suppression of any other feastday.

(my bold)

This is not a licit breviary to use if it’s 1950. Only the 1962 breviary with the reforms of Pius XII and John XXIII are licit according to the Motu Proprio of 2007.

§3 Ordained clerics may also use the Roman Breviary promulgated in 1962 by Blessed John XXIII.

Praying this breviary is thus not part of the liturgical prayer of the Church. Stay away.

 

[Franciscanus]

Thank you so much for your prompt and detailed reply. It is very helpful. Then,which Latin Breviary is canonically acceptable? I prefer a dual translation version; also, I don’t care for all of the Protestant hymns in the new four volume version.
Thanks again for your help

 

[OraLabora]

Thank you so much for your prompt and detailed reply. It is very helpful. Then,which Latin Breviary is canonically acceptable? I prefer a dual translation version; also, I don’t care for all of the Protestant hymns in the new four volume version.
Thanks again for your help

Well I currently do pray the 4-volume version (Liturgy of the Hours) but in Latin; the hymns are traditional from the Liber Hymnarius. If you use Liturgia Horarum alongside the LOTH, your problem will be solved and you’d be praying the current liturgy of the Church.

There are various licit breviaries for the 1962 Office; I’m not familiar with them but some others here will be able to help.

In what way are the hymns in the English LOTH “Protestant”? My LOTH is in French. The hymns there are poor as well, but I can’t say I’ve found anything especially “Protestant” unless one considers “bland” to be “Protestant”

The cheapest solution for you, if it’s only the hymns in LOTH that you dislike, would be to buy or find yourself a copy of Liber Hymnarius, available online. It’s noted for chant, so it would also be a great introduction to Gregorian chant. Some of the melodies are quite simple and for the more complex ones, to start you can impose a simpler melody of the same meter.

 

[Exiled_Child]

I hope it’s okay for me to post this link here:

baroniuspress.com/book.php?wid=56&bid=59#tab=tab-1

I don’t have any kind of financial connection to them or anything like that, but I was looking at these three volumes a few days ago. I’m thinking of purchasing the set. It is pricey, though.

 

[Leonhard]

You can either purchase a beautiful 3-volume breviary wdtprs.com/blog/2012/02/review-new-3-volume-extraordinary-form-roman-breviary-in-latin-and-english-from-baronius-press/

I’m definitely saving up for that and it has both english and latin, and is properly the breviary following the traditional calender. Well illustrated and with thoroughly gregorian chant. No songs written by protestants in this one.

Or you can download a 1$ app by the Franciscans of the Immaculate Heart, which also has all the prayers with options for both Latin and English side by side. wdtprs.com/blog/2011/05/review-1962-roman-breviary-iphone-app/

As for whether its licit for a lay person to pray the 1955 breviary, yes, lay people may do that or even pre-Trent office if they felt inclined. However with this OP I’m considering stopping my support of that website, and pray from the app I mentioned. As much as I sympathise with the SSPX (or whatever this might be as I don’t know) I can’t support their work in good conscience.

I’ll ask them about it in an email though. In the meantime I hope what I wrote was of help.

 

[Leonhard]

In what way are the hymns in the English LOTH “Protestant”? My LOTH is in French. The hymns there are poor as well, but I can’t say I’ve found anything especially “Protestant” unless one considers “bland” to be “Protestant”

If I showed you the danish book Liturgy of the Hours, I wonder what you’d think when more than half of the hymns are from Lutherans (in the songbook at church there’s even a hymn penned by Luther himself). Gregorian is almost non existant save for some token Marian antiphons.

Oh and forget about praying all 150 psalms, some of them were deemed too harsh sounding and were left out (also to conserve space). It explains both reasons in the foreword.

As its one compact volume its a nightmare of leafing back and forth and even with seven ribbons you often missed stuff.

Admittedly many of those problems came with the limits of the production, but the songs kinda sting.

 

[OraLabora]

If I showed you the danish book Liturgy of the Hours, I wonder what you’d think when more than half of the hymns are from Lutherans (in the songbook at church there’s even a hymn penned by Luther himself). Gregorian is almost non existant save for some token Marian antiphons.

Oh and forget about praying all 150 psalms, some of them were deemed too harsh sounding and were left out (also to conserve space). It explains both reasons in the foreword.

As its one compact volume its a nightmare of leafing back and forth and even with seven ribbons you often missed stuff.

Admittedly many of those problems came with the limits of the production, but the songs kinda sting.

The imprecatory psalms and verses were removed at the insistence of Paul VI. Interestingly, I use Les Heures Grégoriennes to chant the day hours in Latin (it has French alongside; French is my mother tongue); it is noted for chant. The imprecatory verses are in brackets but not removed. Alas the psalms aren’t there though.

The breviary that the monastery I’m associated with, which is a post-Vatican II breviary, includes all the imprecatory verses and psalms (but with a notation that they can be omitted).

Can’t comment too much on Danish hymns though… but Lutheran isn’t necessarily bad if they are good and don’t contain heresy. Lutheranism does contain some truth and inasmuch as the hymns contain truths we hold in common there’s nothing wrong with using them. I know Anglicans have some pretty decent music, not all of it is heretical!

I have yet to find a breviary that doesn’t require a lot of back and forth regardless of language or format. I have a 1950s Monastic Breviary at home and it’s positively a nightmare to navigate, and it’s only two volumes. So far, for chanting, Les Heures Grégoriennes is about the best i’ve ever seen and the new Antiphonale Romanum II is equally good but Latin-only (it’s Vespers of Sundays throughout the year, feasts and solemnities for the 4-week LOTH)

 

[Leonhard]

The imprecatory psalms and verses were removed at the insistence of Paul VI. Interestingly, I use Les Heures Grégoriennes to chant the day hours in Latin (it has French alongside; French is my mother tongue); it is noted for chant. The imprecatory verses are in brackets but not removed. Alas the psalms aren’t there though.

One can appreciate the pastoral concern. People might mistake the meaning of these psalms, now that we’re encouraging everyone to say it. Some pastors, I know, simple don’t like them. However, if you connect with and read the Church Father’s these psalms have many good meanings, and as they’re part of the Holy Scripture… it just feels wrong to see them snipped out.

The breviary that the monastery I’m associated with, which is a post-Vatican II breviary, includes all the imprecatory verses and psalms (but with a notation that they can be omitted).

See I’ve been confused about that in LotH, is it ‘can be ommitted’ or ‘must be ommitted’?

Can’t comment too much on Danish hymns though… but Lutheran isn’t necessarily bad if they are good and don’t contain heresy.

I’ll be the first to agree with that, coming from a Lutheran background. However they’re sung to the point of drowning out and entirely ignoring the Gregorian tradition. Now you may have the luxury of living in a parish with mass celebrated in the Latin tongue, and such things as go along with that (something I’ve never experienced but only heard about).

I’m at a parish where the highalter was smashed to pieces in the seventies, there’s an ugly wooden table now in the middle of the Church, chairs are arranged so that everyone faces each other with endless distraction, the priest faces the people, the baptismal font is up where the old high altar used to be (and not near the doors), one of the priests painted abstract art paintings and hung them over all the beautifully carved stations of the cross… guitars, and drums are very much welcome, sappy modern songs (‘Open the eyes of my heart Lord’ by Michael W. Smith (try listening to that for a while))…

I miss some hardline Catholic Latin-rite identity. The danish version of the LotH doesn’t give me that, and I can’t see what the great difference between that and the Latin edition. However much you claim that they both praise God equally, which I’m entirely sure I agree with. Its definitely the case that one of them easier to fit into a busy schedule than the other.

I feel the Benedictine Office is more eastern, though its always interesting to study differences over the years… I miss any mention of Hell, of purgatory, of penance, of having to suffer, of all such things as are part of an authentic life as a disciple…

Living in a parish where not even the need for sacramental confession is mentioned from the pulpit, much less sin. Can you blame me for wanting something that reminds me more of what the Catholic Church contains than what’s in… at least what I find in the danish LotH?

Especially if all the songs are little different from what I sang prior to becoming Catholic.

I have yet to find a breviary that doesn’t require a lot of back and forth regardless of language or format. I have a 1950s Monastic Breviary at home and it’s positively a nightmare to navigate, and it’s only two volumes. So far, for chanting, Les Heures Grégoriennes is about the best i’ve ever seen and the new Antiphonale Romanum II is equally good but Latin-only (it’s Vespers of Sundays throughout the year, feasts and solemnities for the 4-week LOTH)

I know of a 1961 breviary that doesn’t require any leafing, though its 6000 pages long over a couple of volumes. I’d go for that as its the one I’ve linked to earlier.

I’ve seen some other threads on the breviary on the traditional forum, you seem to be championing the LotH a lot. I wish I could engage you on it as you probably know far more about it than I do, me being still a newcomer to Catholicism, who’s trying to find his legs. However I’m going on a retreat tomorrow and I won’t be back until the 30th.

 

[OraLabora]

I’ve seen some other threads on the breviary on the traditional forum, you seem to be championing the LotH a lot. I wish I could engage you on it as you probably know far more about it than I do, me being still a newcomer to Catholicism, who’s trying to find his legs. However I’m going on a retreat tomorrow and I won’t be back until the 30th.

Yes, I like the LOTH. It really is excellent at what it is supposed to be: within reach of the laity and what it was first designed for, to be used by busy diocesan clergy. It also has a lot of Benedictine influences (which is not Eastern BTW, it was the major Divine Office influence until 1910 when Pius X really made profound changes that broke with tradition). Is it perfect? No. I happen to agree with you on the imprecatory psalms/verses. At least they could have been moved and made optional for the Office of Readings for those who pray it as a night Office. The breviary of my monastery puts most of them at the Vigils, the night Office. I also don’t like the NT canticles at Vespers, from the point of view of a student of Gregorian chant. They simply don’t work well as psalmody, the verses are too syncopated.

But now that books exist to sing the entire daytime Office year round, I have no serious objections to it. For the Night Office (Vigils, which is how I use the Office of Readings), I simply chant the Office recto-tono, which is how it is done in most monasteries anyway.

I really find it a handy breviary for a busy professional with a family. It’s flexible, there are choices in the rubrics that allow me to increase the Benedictine influence, and it really allows me to pray and meditate the Office rather than zoom through a large chunk of psalms. I also like the calendar. The biggest problem for me is that the old breviaries cause you to spend way too much time in the festive psalter, so there are in fact many weeks when you don’t pray all 150 psalms because of it. If there are too few ordinary days, feasts lose their meaning. A monk I know says he has a great devotion to St. Feria, and I have to agree with him.

It’s really not as bad as many people make it out to be. And it is the current liturgy of the Church, for what it’s worth, and I believe there’s value to that.