Bride and Virgin?

[dorothy_smith]

Consummation between man and wife unifies two as one in the eyes of the Lord. What God has joined together let no man put asunder (Mathew 19:6). How does this reflect upon Mary’s virginity? In theory, you cannot be a bride and a virgin (in theory). Without consummation marriage is an annulment.

dorothy

 

[Reepicheep]

The Virgin Mary was the Bride of the Holy Spirit. For her, virginity does not annul the marraige.

 

[dorothy_smith]

Wasn’t the Virgin Mary the bride of Joseph?

dorothy

 

[Mintaka]

The Church is a virgin and a bride. And she produces lots of children – us.

Moving on… Jewish law is not the same as Christian law. In Jewish law, a woman with a signed marriage contract (ketubah) or a woman who’s betrothed is legally a wife, whether or not any sex has taken place. OTOH, sex did act as a marriage contract between two unmarried persons.

Christian marriage law derives not just from Jewish law, but from Jesus’ view of the situation – the two become one flesh. To protect people from unwanted marriage, nonconsummation gave everybody involved an out. But only if they asked for it. Otherwise, the marriage ceremony was perfectly valid.

(And there were couples back in the day who would purposefully enter upon marriage in order not to have sex, to protect each other and allow both to practice a call to celibacy. If either one asked to have sex, of course it wouldn’t be fair to refuse; but as long as both kept to their resolution and didn’t complain, that was their business. This practice is heartily discouraged these days, but then, we also don’t live in the Middle Ages with cranky killer kinfolk.)

 

[Randy_Carson]

Consummation between man and wife unifies two as one in the eyes of the Lord. What God has joined together let no man put asunder (Mathew 19:6). How does this reflect upon Mary’s virginity? In theory, you cannot be a bride and a virgin (in theory). Without consummation marriage is an annulment.

dorothy

Are you seeking to understand the Perpetual Virginity of Mary or do you simply have questions about the marriage arrangement between Mary and Joseph?

 

[VociMike]

Consummation between man and wife unifies two as one in the eyes of the Lord. What God has joined together let no man put asunder (Mathew 19:6). How does this reflect upon Mary’s virginity? In theory, you cannot be a bride and a virgin (in theory). Without consummation marriage is an annulment.

dorothy

In that case, why didn’t Joseph consummate the marriage before Christ was born? Nobody told him not to.

 

[dorothy_smith]

Are you seeking to understand the Perpetual Virginity of Mary or do you simply have questions about the marriage arrangement between Mary and Joseph?

I am seeking to understand both issues.As a Catholic I have always been interested in the significance of Mary and her virginity. I don’t like to ask at church because I am embarrassed and it is a very touchy subject amongst Catholics.

The NT doesn’t mention anything about the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. After the birth of Jesus why did Mary choose to remain a virgin? If Mary and Joseph were in love it would have been only natural that they consummated their marriage. To do otherwise would be unnatural. Or was their wedding a sham marriage? I think that in those days Mary would have been stoned to death if she were pregnant outside of marriage (right?) Since that was the case, then Joseph married Mary to protect her. I understand that. Therefore, Mary and Joseph were married in the eyes of the law but not in God’s covenant (Mathew 19:6).

 

[Sabda]

Chaste marriages were allowed back in those days. God did allow it, look at Num 30. It’s all about taking vows of celebacy and being married.

1
Moses then gave the Israelites these instructions, just as the LORD had ordered him.
2
Moses said to the heads of the Israelite tribes, "This is what the LORD has commanded:
3
1 When a man makes a vow to the LORD or binds himself under oath to a pledge of abstinence, he shall not violate his word, but must fulfill exactly the promise he has uttered.

7
"If she marries while under a vow or under a rash pledge to which she bound herself,
8
and her husband learns of it, yet says nothing to her that day about it, then the vow or pledge she had made remains valid.

11
2 "If it is in her husband’s house that she makes a vow or binds herself under oath to a pledge,
12
and her husband learns of it yet says nothing to express to her his disapproval, then any vow or any pledge she has made remains valid.

14
"Any vow or any pledge that she makes under oath to mortify herself, her husband can either allow to remain valid or render null and void.
15
But if her husband, day after day, says nothing at all to her about them, he thereby allows as valid any vow or any pledge she has made; he has allowed them to remain valid, because on the day he learned of them he said nothing to her about them.

17
These are the statutes which the LORD prescribed through Moses concerning the relationship between a husband and his wife, as well as between a father and his daughter while she is still a maiden in her father’s house.

If chaste marriages were not allowed by God than why is the whole chapter about chaste marriages? Please do read the whole chapter. Also, keep in mind that Mary and Joseph were not under the New Convenant at the time of their betrothal. They were under the Old Convenant.

 

[VociMike]

I am seeking to understand both issues.As a Catholic I have always been interested in the significance of Mary and her virginity. I don’t like to ask at church because I am embarrassed and it is a very touchy subject amongst Catholics.

The NT doesn’t mention anything about the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. After the birth of Jesus why did Mary choose to remain a virgin? If Mary and Joseph were in love it would have been only natural that they consummated their marriage. To do otherwise would be unnatural. Or was their wedding a sham marriage? I think that in those days Mary would have been stoned to death if she were pregnant outside of marriage (right?) Since that was the case, then Joseph married Mary to protect her. I understand that. Therefore, Mary and Joseph were married in the eyes of the law but not in God’s covenant (Mathew 19:6).

God told Joseph to take Mary – that is as married as married can get.

You want to talk about nature? The conception of Jesus through the Holy Spirit, was that natural? Is giving birth to God natural? You need to stop requiring that the family life of Jesus and Mary and Joseph meet some standard of “natural”.

Why did Mary remain a virgin? Answer me this – when is it appropriate for a woman to bear the children of two different fathers? When the first father dies? Did God die? When the first father abandons mother and child? Did God abandon Mary and Jesus?

Stop thinking about the Holy Family through the sex-obsessed filter of modern times.

 

[dorothy_smith]

Chaste marriages were allowed back in those days. God did allow it, look at Num 30. It’s all about taking vows of celebacy and being married.

Hi Shelie

I’ve read through Numbers 30 and I think I understand (in relation to the Virgin Mary). Mary felt betrothed to the Holy Spirit and wanted to remain faithful? right? And that is why she will always remain the Perpetual Virgin? right?

I still am a bit (quite a lot) confused. It is kind of like she was betrothed spiritually and physically to the Holy Spirit and mentally but non-physically to Joseph? right? Or have I gotten it all mixed up?

 

[Sabda]

Hi Shelie

I’ve read through Numbers 30 and I think I understand (in relation to the Virgin Mary). Mary felt betrothed to the Holy Spirit and wanted to remain faithful? right? And that is why she will always remain the Perpetual Virgin? right?

I still am a bit (quite a lot) confused. It is kind of like she was betrothed spiritually and physically to the Holy Spirit and mentally but non-physically to Joseph? right? Or have I gotten it all mixed up?

Mary’s body was made the sacred dwelling place of the Lord as soon as He entered into her and Jesus Christ was conceived. No man would have been worthy to enter into such a sacred place. I can’t remember the passage, but there is a passage that talks about one of David’s men touching the Ark. When he did he died immediately. The Ark of the Old Covenant was so sacred that it could not be touched because God dwelled in the Ark. It is the same with the Ark of the New Covenant (Mary). St. Joseph being a righteous man would have known that no man is worthy to enter were God dwells.

Hope this helps. I understand your confusion. I also find myself confused at times.

Hopefully someone else can help out on the passage I’m talking about.

 

[dorothy_smith]

Mary’s body was made the sacred dwelling place of the Lord as soon as He entered into her and Jesus Christ was conceived. No man would have been worthy to enter into such a sacred place.

Thanks Shelie, I understand it a lot better now. The sacred dwelling place (Mary) where the gestation of Jesus took place would be like entering into God’s kingdom. No human being would be able to enter because they are in a state of sin. Also, Mary was the bride of God and remained faithdul to Him.

 

[Tom]

I am seeking to understand both issues.As a Catholic I have always been interested in the significance of Mary and her virginity. I don’t like to ask at church because I am embarrassed and it is a very touchy subject amongst Catholics. The NT doesn’t mention anything about the Perpetual Virginity of Mary.

Actually the New Testament does indicate the perpetual virginity of Mary, “if” read in proper context. Read Luke chapter 1 concerning the annunciation of the birth of Jesus from the perspective of Mary and you may understand. Remember Mary was a teenaged girl, engaged, and soon to be married, to Joseph. Both Joseph and Mary were good devout Jews. Mary understood how babies were conceived.
Put yourself in the place of Mary and read Luke chapter 1, verse 26 to 33. Remember the angel is telling you what will happen in the future, a future which includes a marriage to Joseph. The only question we don’t know is if Mary and Joseph were planning to have sexual relations after their marriage. Read it first thinking they were planning on a normal sexual relationship, then, read it again thinking they were not planning a normal sexual relationship.
www.drbo.org:

Luke 1,26 And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

You would be troubled if an angel of God came to visit wouldn’t you? Next the angel tells Mary eight things which shall in the future occur, six of the eight are truly remarkable, one is very noteworthy and one should be absolutely unremarkable since you’re planning to have sex after marriage.
www.drbo.org:

Luke 1,31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. 33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Here are the eight, you decide which should have been assumed, which would be noteworthy, and which are truly remarkable.

1. You will conceive in your womb a child.
2. The child shall be a boy
3. You shall call Him “Jesus” (means “God with us)
4. He shall be great
5. He shall be called the “Son of the most high”. (A term used only for a great King.)
6. The Lord shall give Him the throne of David, His father.
7. He shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.
8. His kingdom shall have no end.
   So, you’re Mary, have any questions? Which of the eight items above would a woman who is soon to be married and planning on having sex with her husband ask? Which items, if any could be assumed? Which would be news but not earth shattering? And which blow your mind? Which ones would YOU ask about?

 

[Tom]

Remember the angel is telling Mary what “shall” in the future happen. Her future includes a marriage to Joseph. Mary would have no reason to feel the angel is telling her she would conceive prior to her marriage, actually she would have to think the angel was saying she would fornicate, a sin, prior to her marriage.
www.drbo.org:

Luke 1,34 And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?

So there is no logical reason for the question she asks “if” she is planning on a normal sexual relationship. Notice also that the angel stops short of telling her the true Father of her child. There is nothing up until this point to indicate that Mary would have thought the child would not be from sexual relations with Joseph is there?

 

[Tom]

The angel stops short of indicating who the true Father is. Why? Had the angel continued on, and explained the true Father, there would have been no reason for her question. Forcing her to ask “how” can only make any sense if Scripture wants you to know she was indeed planning on remaining a virgin.
www.drbo.org:

Luke 1,35 And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Luke chapter 1, indicates they did not plan on having sexual relations.
This issue is discussed in many links, here’s one:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=11145

 

[VociMike]

There is also this passage from the Old Testament which prefigures Mary’s perpetual virginity:

Ezekiel 44:
1: Then he brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, which faces east; and it was shut.

2: And he said to me, "This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.

 

[Tom]

Now read Luke chapter 1 with the knowledge that you will remain a virgin your entire life. Your question of “how shall this be” makes perfect sense in this context doesn’t it?
It ONLY makes sense in this context.
As for why she remained a virgin after His birth, the answer is in Numbers chapter 30, as you said earlier. Joseph took Mary into his house while she was under a vow of virginity. He knew about this vow and allowed it. He may not later change his mind about her vow, it is forever.

 

[TimOliv]

Consummation between man and wife unifies two as one in the eyes of the Lord. What God has joined together let no man put asunder (Mathew 19:6). How does this reflect upon Mary’s virginity? In theory, you cannot be a bride and a virgin (in theory). Without consummation marriage is an annulment.

dorothy

Lack of consummation does not annul a marriage. That would not make sense. That would mean you would literally have to walk from the altar to the bedroom otherwise the marriage would be annulled before you even got to the reception.

In Jewish Law, there is a marriage contract (ketubah) which is dissolved only by a Divorce decree (called a “get”). When the contract is signed (as in the case of Joseph and Mary) the couple are Husband and Wife. The Husband may, at any time and for any reason, give his wife a “get” and divorce her and be free to remarry (under Jewish Law).

You are applying Christian law which came well after the death of Mary to her marriage, that is sort of like me applying copyright law to the Four Evangelists and arguing they can be sued for producing an unauthorized sequel to the Tanakh (The Old Testament). They are apples and oranges.

Under Jewish law Joseph and Mary were legally married even though Mary remained a virgin.

 

[dorothy_smith]

I don’t know anything about Jewish law. I do know that couples can be legally married if one or both partners prefer to stay virgins or not (within Western society). I also know that unconsummated marriages can be annulled within the Catholic Church.

Tom, thanks for explaining Bible passages and Christian doctrine to me. I find it very interesting. (I still don’t really know why it is so important that Mary did or did not remain a virgin. Procreation is part of being human. Jesus deigned to be part human in order to experience all of man’s feelings and emotions. Procreation is the most fundamental part of human love).

1. You will conceive in your womb a child.
2. The child shall be a boy
3. You shall call Him “Jesus” (means “God with us)
4. He shall be great
5. He shall be called the “Son of the most high”. (A term used only for a great King.)
6. The Lord shall give Him the throne of David, His father.
7. He shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.
8. His kingdom shall have no end.

 

[dorothy_smith]

1. You will conceive in your womb a child.
2. The child shall be a boy
3. You shall call Him “Jesus” (means “God with us)
4. He shall be great
5. He shall be called the “Son of the most high”. (A term used only for a great King.)
6. The Lord shall give Him the throne of David, His father.
7. He shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.
8. His kingdom shall have no end.

(Re: Your quote above: St Luke 1:31-33) I don’t understand how the lineage of Joseph can also be the lineage of Jesus when Joseph was not his biological father. How can God (Jesus) have any lineage?