Bring back the papal tiara?

[Pope_Noah_I]

Yeah, let’s look at some examples.

http://gallery.ecupatriarchate.org/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=362&g2_serialNumber

A nice chasuble, but not fantastic. However, His All Holiness is wearing a beautiful mandyas. Benedict could take some tips.

http://gallery.ecupatriarchate.org/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=30&g2_serialNumber

A gorgeous sakkos, and what appears to be an omophorion embroidered with the Four Evangelists. Also, those pectoral crosses just accentuate the overall splendor.

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This is a long way away from Paul VI…

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Sometimes I wonder what His Holiness is thinking when he puts on some of these vestments…

 

[ncjohn]

Nothing quite like seeing the Servant of the Servants of God dressed up like a secular king, modelling the way the King of Kings lived…

Oh…wait…never mind…

 

[Joab_Anias]

In short, I think we need to reclaim the symbols of the Papacy so that we will be reminded of the reality of the Papacy. To hide behind the guise of “humility” will end up diminishing the palpable reality of Papal primacy and leave the “Bishop of Rome” a merely titular position.

How soon we forget! What did all the pomp lead too? Schisms, reformation, inquisition and crusades. How were any of these benificial to ones salvation? How is a crown?

The symbol is not lost, we still have it. Sincerity is gained. Do you think the Pontiff would act as he does otherwise.

This arguement should be about vanity because its certainly vain.

What crown did the Son of God wear? Thats the crown we should seek. NOT a symbol of worldly power. He who exhaults himself will be humbled and he who humbles himself will be exhaulted.

If you want to exhault the vicar of Christ pray for him!

 

[ncjohn]

How soon we forget! What did all the pomp lead too? Schisms, reformation, inquisition and crusades. How were any of these benificial to ones salvation? How is a crown?

The symbol is not lost, we still have it. Sincerity is gained. Do you think the Pontiff would act as he does otherwise.

This arguement should be about vanity because its certainly vain.

What crown did the Son of God wear? Thats the crown we should seek. NOT a symbol of worldly power. He who exhaults himself will be humbled and he who humbles himself will be exhaulted.

If you want to exhault the vicar of Christ pray for him!

Exactly. One wearing one of these crowns might actually convince someone that he was serious about what he is supposed to be doing.

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[Freshman88]

How soon we forget! What did all the pomp lead too? Schisms, reformation, inquisition and crusades. How were any of these benificial to ones salvation? How is a crown?

The symbol is not lost, we still have it. Sincerity is gained. Do you think the Pontiff would act as he does otherwise.

This arguement should be about vanity because its certainly vain.

What crown did the Son of God wear? Thats the crown we should seek. NOT a symbol of worldly power. He who exhaults himself will be humbled and he who humbles himself will be exhaulted.

If you want to exhault the vicar of Christ pray for him!

If only faith were that easy.

I for one need the symbolism. I need to be reminded that something glorious is occuring before me.

I strongly advocate any chance we have to exalt God through whatever material means we have. If it can be through a beautiful crown, so be it.

I grew up in a place where that be humble at every opportunity mentality was rampant . Nothing was reverent, everything was ordinary and simple … until I came across the Easterners, and they saved my faith. When I went into my grandparent’s Church - I was stunned, I had never seen a Church that beautiful nor a priest who were garments so magnificent. Those poor immigrants built a Church more precious and beautiful than my large and rich parish ever could.

It may sound simple and childish - but pomp was a contributing factor to saving my faith. Not everyone has a strong enough faith to see the Holy beyond simple garments and modern Churches.

If we have something better for God - don’t hold back, use it!

…

Those schisms, those crusades, those inquisitions all add to my faith. Hearing the story of the crusaders strengthens my faith when I’m getting down. Thinking of those great human events, were our faithful ancestors took the faith so strongly that they were willing to die for it - accepting no half-measures. Stories like that keep me going, without them, I’m sure that I would be somewhere else.

 

[Freshman88]

If only faith were that easy.

I for one need the symbolism. I need to be reminded that something glorious is occuring before me.

I strongly advocate any chance we have to exalt God through whatever material means we have. If it can be through a beautiful crown, so be it.

I grew up in a place where that be humble at every oppertunity mentality was rampant . Nothing was reverent, everything was ordinary and simple … until I came across the Easterners, and they saved my faith. When I went into my grandparent’s Church - I was stunned, I had never seen a Church that beautiful nor a priest who were garments so magnificent. Those poor immigrants built a Church more precious and beautiful than my large and rich parish ever could.

It may sound simple and childish - but pomp was a contributing factor to saving my faith. Not everyone has a strong enough faith to see the Holy beyond simple garments and modern Churches.

If we have something better for God - don’t hold back, use it!

 

[Windmill]

How soon we forget! What did all the pomp lead too? Schisms, reformation, inquisition and crusades. How were any of these benificial to ones salvation? How is a crown?

How does ceremony lead to this? I don’t see the reasoning here.

The symbol is not lost, we still have it. Sincerity is gained. Do you think the Pontiff would act as he does otherwise.

How is the symbol not lost when it sits in a museum? Symbols are not ethereal, they are concrete. That’s why they are a symbol. Out of sight, out of mind.

This arguement should be about vanity because its certainly vain.

Are you condemning all prelates who wear something more than clerics vain? That is a very serious blanket observation.

What crown did the Son of God wear? Thats the crown we should seek. NOT a symbol of worldly power. He who exhaults himself will be humbled and he who humbles himself will be exhaulted.

Again, by this thinking, shouldn’t we make all preists and bishops wear ordinary clothes and no longer wear any vestments that are different from the laity? Maybe we should get rid of the “vain” chasubles, or do away with the monstrances that are made of gold. Maybe we should get rid of the ostentatious statues and altars that nourished the spiritual lives of the saints. How about selling all the luxurious art in teh Sistine Chapel to feed the poor?I don’t see how one can defend your stance without arriving at Puritanical Calvinism.

If you want to exhault the vicar of Christ pray for him!

I do. What does that have to do with this conversation?

 

[DustinsDad]

How soon we forget! What did all the pomp lead too? Schisms, reformation, inquisition and crusades. How were any of these benificial to ones salvation? How is a crown?

The symbol is not lost, we still have it. Sincerity is gained. Do you think the Pontiff would act as he does otherwise.

This arguement should be about vanity because its certainly vain.

What crown did the Son of God wear? Thats the crown we should seek. NOT a symbol of worldly power. He who exhaults himself will be humbled and he who humbles himself will be exhaulted.

If you want to exhault the vicar of Christ pray for him!

“I hear all around me innovators who wish to dismantle the Sacred Chapel, destroy the universal flame of the Church, reject Her ornaments and make Her feel remorse for Her historical past.”
-Pope Pius XII, 1939-

 

[DustinsDad]

…It may sound simple and childish - but pomp was a contributing factor to saving my faith…

I think it’s actually a form of pride that leads one to reject pomp and ritual and formal stuff altogether. “We think we’re above all that”.

It’s as common as the boy (or nowadays the man) who doesn’t want to “dress up” for Church on Sundays. And it runs deep in the U.S. We’ve been brought up to hate anything that smacks of royalty. - Ah the U.S., the most humble nation on earth .

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Windmill]

“I hear all around me innovators who wish to dismantle the Sacred Chapel, destroy the universal flame of the Church, reject Her ornaments and make Her feel remorse for Her historical past.”
-Pope Pius XII, 1939-

Word. Gotta go with the Vicar of Christ on this one.

I sometimes get the feeling that if you quote a source before the Second Vatican Council that you are automatically labelled an extremist. Why can’t we look at Catholicism in the greater context without getting itno these little skirmishes?

This is actually one reason why I am in favor of rediscovering the traditions of the Church. We have become indifferent or hostile toward those things that saints before us found spiritually satisfying. Even St. Francis, on his deathbed, told his priests to buy the most beautiful vestments and go all over the world replacing cheap vestments and ciboria with one fit for worship. I guess he was “ultraconservative” in wanting these lush symbols to decorate the priests.

How pompous of him

 

[DustinsDad]

…Are you condemning all prelates who wear something more than clerics vain? That is a very serious blanket observation…

Amazing how very wrong the Church was for so many centuries, eh?

DustinsDad

 

[Pope_Noah_I]

How soon we forget! What did all the pomp lead too? Schisms, reformation, inquisition and crusades. How were any of these benificial to ones salvation? How is a crown?

The symbol is not lost, we still have it. Sincerity is gained. Do you think the Pontiff would act as he does otherwise.

This arguement should be about vanity because its certainly vain.

What crown did the Son of God wear? Thats the crown we should seek. NOT a symbol of worldly power. He who exhaults himself will be humbled and he who humbles himself will be exhaulted.

If you want to exhault the vicar of Christ pray for him!

Was it not God who ordered the Temple and Tabernacle to be made out of expensive materials, with it’s priests dressed in ornate vestments? Apparently, Christ wanted the “pomp.”

 

[Windmill]

We are falling into Calvin’s paradigm of “total depravity” whereby all created things (matter, thought, reason, music, etc…) are vain. We look at the body not as something inherent to our being, but as something to escape. We are supposed to be spirit only, according to some, and all attempts to use creation to glorify God is vain. This was the logic behind the iconoclasm that dominated protestant revolters as they smashed altars, statues, vestments, monstrances, etc…

After Vatican II, these were the people who cheered when the beautiful High Altars were smashed to make way for the ironing boards shoved into the middle of the sanctuary.

Brothers and sisters, be very careful about falling into this trap. It leads to a sad desolation.

 

[Joab_Anias]

How does ceremony lead to this? I don’t see the reasoning here.

It necessarily doesn’t but the pompus self assertion of authority in the past certainly contributed. The tiera is a symbol of those barberous times that we don’t need reminding of other than to remember what was learned.

How is the symbol not lost when it sits in a museum? Symbols are not ethereal, they are concrete. That’s why they are a symbol.

Its not lost because we have our hierachy in tact.

Are you condemning all prelates who wear something more than clerics vain? That is a very serious blanket observation.

Not for me to say. For the most part no because they do not claim them for themselves.

Again, by this thinking, shouldn’t we make all preists and bishops wear ordinary clothes and no longer wear any vestments that are different from the laity? Maybe we should get rid of the “vain” chasubles, or do away with the monstrances that are made of gold. I don’t see how one can defend your stance without arriving at Puritanical Calvinism.

Because there is a difference between worshiping God and venerating a Man. The later must never exceed the former.

I do. What does that have to do with this conversation?

Glad to hear it. Because our hope must be in the Lord alone and He alone is worthy of exhaultation. I do not feel it is contrary to the faith to venerate the Holy Father at all either though I feel respect for his wisdom is paramount to that. My concern comes from the detriment excessive pomp may bring to evangelization and in isolating ourselves from that task.

Peace.

 

[Windmill]

It necessarily doesn’t but the pompus self assertion of authority in the past certainly contributed. The tiera is a symbol of those barberous times that we don’t need reminding of.

I don’t see the logic here. The pope is not self-asserting his authority, he is merely acknowledging the authority God gave him. Is the answer to our problems for the Pope to back off and not lead? Are our problems due to kings wearing crowns and royal garb, or is it abuse of power? I don’t see how symbols necessarily corrupt. And why is the tiara a symbol of barbarous times? It has no more affiliation with barbarism than a knight’s suit of armor.

Its not lost because we have our hierachy in tact.

Some would say that, in many countries, there is a de facto schism. I think that the hierarchy needs to be reunified under the leadership of a strong Pope who isn’t afraid to call the shots as he sees them and not fear being labelled “oppressive” when, in fact, he is carrying out his duties.

Not for me to say. For the most part no because they do not claim them for themselves.

I don’t follow here. Are you saying that the Vatican is imposing vanity by requiring the clerics to wear clerical garb, or are you saying that it is virtuous for priests to shun clerical garb?

Because there is a difference between worshiping God and venerating a Man. The later must never exceed the former.

Who is worshipping a man?

Glad to hear it. Because our hope must be in the Lord alone and He alone is worthy of exhaultation. I do not feel it is contrary to the faith to venerate the Holy Father at all either though I feel respect for his wisdom is paramount to that. My concern comes from the detriment excessive pomp may bring to evangelization and in isolating ourselves from that task.

I find the opposite to be true. Pomp and ceremony tend to actualize the grand awe that should be present at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and be decorating those ministers divinely ordained to offer that sacrifice. When the visible mirrors the invisible, that tends to have a very powerful evangelizing effect. I know many who have converted because they actually felt they were worshipping God more fully in a decorated Catholic church than in a start, protestant meeting house.
Peace.

 

[ncjohn]

Even St. Francis, on his deathbed, told his priests to buy the most beautiful vestments and go all over the world replacing cheap vestments and ciboria with one fit for worship. I guess he was “ultraconservative” in wanting these lush symbols to decorate the priests.

How pompous of him

I’d really love to see a source for this statement as I have never heard any such thing and it would run contrary to everything he ever said that I have seen.

While I certainly wouldn’t claim that it’s impossible that he said it, I’d have to see something very credible to believe he did since he expressly forbid the friars from owning more than a simple tunic or to ride a horse lest they be seen as being part of the upper class.

 

[Windmill]

I’d really love to see a source for this statement as I have never heard any such thing and it would run contrary to everything he ever said that I have seen.

Okay:

Cited from www.catholicliturgy.com

We need reverence. Make a conscious decision to genuflect whenever coming into or leaving the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, as well as before receiving Holy Communion. St. Francis penned these lines to his followers seven centuries ago: “I beg you to show the greatest possible reverence and honor for the most holy Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ…” If it was good for the 12th century, it should be good for the 20th and the 21st. As James Hitchcock has so wisely observed, "a deliberate iconoclasm or a deliberate casualness in Liturgy, insofar as these come to be accepted, signal the death of the sacred. " Isn’t this exactly what Eamon Duffy documented so strikingly about the Protestant Reformation in England in his magisterial work The Stripping of the Altars?

We need beauty. Beautiful vestments, vessels, and places of worship. Once again, St. Francis - the saint of holy poverty, remember - had this attitude, recorded by one of his early biographers: “He wished … to send his brothers through the world with precious pyxes, so that wherever they should see the price of our redemption [the Holy Eucharist] kept in an unbecoming manner, they should place it in the very best place.” And in his own testament, the little man of Assisi wrote: “Above everything else, I want this most holy Sacrament to be honored and venerated and reserved in places which are richly ornamented.”

I could find more if I had time, but this gets the basic idea across. When the idea is to glorify God, St. Francis demanded only the finest.

 

[ncjohn]

Okay:
Cited from www.catholicliturgy.com

I could find more if I had time, but this gets the basic idea across. When the idea is to glorify God, St. Francis demanded only the finest.

There is a great deal of difference between what you said about vestments, etc and putting the host in a gold pyx or genuflecting with reverence before the Blessed Sacrament.

Francis was totally against ornamentation for man, though he begged the friars not to look down on those who needed their soft and colorful fabrics lest they take pride in their own humility. He is also well-documented as being aghast at the splendor of the hierarchy and St. John Lateran’s.

You may well be able to find saints who will exult such things but I fear you’ll need to look elsewhere than Francis.

 

[Lepanto]

How soon we forget! What did all the pomp lead too? Schisms, reformation, inquisition and crusades. How were any of these benificial to ones salvation?

BENEFICIAL (overall):
The inquisition kept the faith pure and safe from Albigensianism, Waldensianism, and other heresies. Also kept Protestantism out of certain places, such as Spain, Italy, and Portugal. Likewise, the crusades were just and defensive wars which repelled the Muslim invaders out of Europe and temporarily (unfortunately) out of the Holy Land.

On the other hand, nothing beneficial came out of schisms and very little good came out of the reformation.

Big differences!

 

[Windmill]

How do you think St. Francis would think of ornamental vestments in a “richly-ornamented” church? Would they be out of place or perfectly suited? Would it not be more appropriate for the great saint’s comments to be taken in the context of the hierarchy’s personal possessions and clothes, and not the ornamentation that accompanied the worship of Almighty God? I see nothing in your comments that makes me think that St. Francis was advocating the priests sell the church’s vestments. St. Francis understood the awesomeness of the priesthood of Christ, and would not want to detract from that. What he did not like was the luxury of the priests.

Also, there would be a huge disconnect for the priest of God, which St. Francis himself, said he would reverence before he would reverence an angel, to be in rags while he ministers in the Church that is “richly-ornamented?” St. Francis would clearly look at vestments for worship of God the same way he would look at churchgoods (ciboria, pyxes, etc…) for the worship of God. Priests are not wearing chasubles around in the public sqaure.

I would counter by asking for references to your assertion that Francis was against beautiful vestments.