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Joab_Anias
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Yea I am sure. My source is history. I saw him at the wailing wall.
At the time they initially had a “noble” cause to take land by force frought with politics. There definitly were alot of atrocities that exhausted all involved at an atrocious loss of life and limb that failed in its purpose.
I have no doubt they began with the intention of doing Gods will. I still think they were a mistake though. Of course I have been to war as an experience in my life. We have a doctrine called the Just War doctrine. I have yet to find a war that met those requirements.
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Joab_Anias
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Having met and listened to Fr. Groeshel personally I am sure he was talking about the abusive misinterpretations of Vatican II and in no way is at odds with the council. I had to write again because though I first found your comment comical I felt it was an unfair misrepresentation of Fr. Groeshel. We should all be as obedient as this Holy priest. I’d be curious to hear his take on the tiara. I am sure he would concur with the Pope on the issue.
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SemperFidelis
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If it weren’t for the Crusades you, and I, and probably every one else in the West would probably be Muslim. I think they did God’s will alright.
Wow. Not even World War II (from the Allies perspective)? If it wasn’t for that war, you and I, and probably every one else would be a Nazi, and Christianity would probably be illegal. If that’s not a just war, I don’t know what is. Reminds of a t-shirt I saw:
Besides stopping Fascism, Nazism, and Communism, war has solved nothing.
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SemperFidelis
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How is it an unfair misrepresentation? He said it and rightly so. The “spirit” of Vatican II needs such treatment.
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RomanCrusader
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Thats nonsense! How dare we offend the homosexuals, Muslims, and atheists?!
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Ad_Deum
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(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Can wait to see the Holy Father Pope Benedict xvi to wear the tiara (a higher symbol of his leadership and authority over the Catholic Church).
Pax
Laudater Jesus Christus
Instaurare omnia in Christo
Can wait to see the Holy Father Pope Benedict xvi to wear the tiara (a higher symbol of his leadership and authority over the Catholic Church).
Pax
Laudater Jesus Christus
Instaurare omnia in Christo
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Lepanto
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Again I ask…what exactly did he say?
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ncjohn
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Baloney. St. Francis renounced all his worldly goods and rebuilt San Damiano by finding and begging stones and installing them himself. Before coming to his conversion he had been selling off parts of his father’s possessions to donate the proceeds to the poor however. This was a large part of the conflict between him and his father which resulted in him stripping naked in the square and renouncing any relationship with his father.
And no, Windmill, there is absolutely no support for the idea of Francis approving opulence on the part of priests in any capacity. He forbid those of his own order from wearing any such things or possessing riches in any form, even to the point of touching money.
As I said, you really need to look for a different example than Francis as you aren’t going to be able to revise a pretty well documented history to suit this argument.
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Andreas_Hofer
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Allow me a bit of nerd reasoning here. The pope’s office is much like that of the stewards of Gondor. We can get down to the nitty-gritty that Christ is the technical monarch and the pope is his steward, but when the rubber meets the road, the pope is exercising the monarchical power of Christ with Christ’s authority. Although the stewards of Gondor were technically not royalty, they exercised the king’s office with his full authority until the return of the king. The popes exercise Christ’s kingly office with His authority until the return of the King.
The stewards, because they acted in the king’s name, were given the honors due the king. Now, Denethor made the mistake of coming to believe that all the honor paid to him as a placeholder was meant for his person. I think this is the unseen mistake made by the popes who laid down the tiara. No, they did not get big heads and think they were Christ, but they unwittingly confused their person with their office when they took it upon themselves to do away with honors paid to Christ through them as His vicars. Taking up the tiara, at least by those popes who succeeded to it, was not a matter of exalting oneself but of accepting an honor given for the sake of Christ. To decline this honor in modern times was understood as popes being humble and turning honor away from themselves, but on a deeper level they deflected honor paid to *Christ *through them. They started to think that all this pomp was meant for them, themselves in person, when it was really meant for someone else and was, in that sense, not theirs to decline. Surely the popes are free to regulate worship and ceremonial, but do you see what I mean in saying there is one sense in which it is not theirs to turn down?
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havemercy
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I love Tolkien so much. 
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CalCath
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While the tiara looks rather silly/ostentatious I do like the fact that it’s universal. It’s neither a western mitre or an eastern roundy crown. That much is quite cool.
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zagjames
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That makes incredible sense, nerd reasoning is the best.
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Joab_Anias
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That makes alot of sense and reminds me of the Pahrasees chiding Jesus for letting Mary anoint His feet. Even Jesus had a seamless garment which was a sign of royalty in His day. As far as pomp overtaking the humilty of the Pope we have several cases of bad popes and anti-popes that shouldn’t be ignored. So again it comes back to the Ponitff himself to choose what he feels best for the Church at the time. He shouldn’t be faulted either way.
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DustinsDad
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Great post.
I think another thing to point out is, we can never strip down the externals “enough” for those who refuse to recognize Christ’s Church for what it is. A pope wearing street clothes would be too much for them. And why? Not because of the clothes - but because the faithful everywhere would still flock to the Vicar of Christ and honor him and his office with their actions and demonstrations of love and awe and respect. You can’t regulate that. And the enemies of the Church would still recoil at the sight of it.
Pray for them.
Peace in Christ,
DustinsDad
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Joab_Anias
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That is so true.Great post.
I think another thing to point out is, we can never strip down the externals “enough” for those who refuse to recognize Christ’s Church for what it is. A pope wearing street clothes would be too much for them. And why? Not because of the clothes - but because the faithful everywhere would still flock to the Vicar of Christ and honor him and his office with their actions and demonstrations of love and awe and respect. You can’t regulate that. And the enemies of the Church would still recoil at the sight of it.
Pray for them.
Peace in Christ,
DustinsDad
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Joab_Anias
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We don’t have to go out of our way to though do we?Thats nonsense! How dare we offend the homosexuals, Muslims, and atheists?!
The truth does a fine job of that on its own, just as it did the Pharasees.
Even some of the good faithful were offened when Christ said “this is my body” and many left.
I guess the question is, should we let the tiera be such an objection?
I think not as the tiera in and of itself has no efficacy for ones salvation. It would seem the Pontiff agrees.
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Isa_Almisry
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Btw, many of us Orthodox, as readily seen on the Eastern Christianity Forum, think that the EP has let the thing on his head go to his head. The headress of the Patriarch of Moscow is that of a monk of the great schema, I believe.
Btw, any valid bishop is a representative of God. At least among the Orthodox. In the Latin church I see it often claimed that the bishops are NOT the delegates of the pope of Rome, but comments like these make me wonder.
Also…
if he gets the tiara, won’t it have to be a diara? One of the rings is for the bishop of Rome being the patriarch of the West, which he says he’s not anymore.
Btw, the tiara, like much else in Rome, is an import from the East, Constantinople specifically.
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Isa_Almisry
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What about those brave Christian souls that sacked Constantinople in 1204 and put a whore (literally) on St. John Chrysostom’s throne? By the time the crusades were through, the Orthodox (both EO and OO) had to look at the muslims as the lesser of two evils.
Onward Christian soldiers.
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Isa_Almisry
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In the aftermath of the Crusades, Islam wipped out Christianity in North Africa except in Egypt where it was decimated to its present minority status, as elswhere in the East in the same period.
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