Bring back the papal tiara?

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What about those brave Christian souls that sacked Constantinople in 1204 and put a whore (literally) on St. John Chrysostom’s throne? By the time the crusades were through, the Orthodox (both EO and OO) had to look at the muslims as the lesser of two evils.

Onward Christian soldiers.
Do not blame the Church for this. The Pope was appalled and very sternly condemned this act. If we are going to start slinging mud:

“Horrible and utterly indefensible as the sack was, it should in justice be remembered that it was not totally unprovoked; more than once (as in the massacre of 1182) the Greeks of Constantinople had treated the Latins there as they were now being treated … Historians who wax eloquent and indignant - with considerable reason - about the sack of Constantinople … rarely if ever mention the massacre of the Westerners in Constantinople in 1182 … a nightmarish massacre of thousands [about 2000 Greeks were killed in Constantinople in 1204, according to secular historian Will Durant]… in which the slaughterers spared neither women nor children, neither old nor sick, neither priest nor monk. Cardinal John, the Pope’s representative, was beheaded and his head was dragged through the streets at the tail of a dog; children were cut out of their mother’s wombs; bodies of dead Westerners were exhumed and abused; some 4,000 who escaped death were sold into slavery to the Turks.”

(Carroll, ibid ., pp. 157,131)

or

“Each … must look back at the past with sorrow and repentance. Both sides must in honesty acknowledge that they could and should have done more to prevent the schism. Both sides were guilty of mistakes on the human level. Orthodox, for example, must blame themselves for the pride and contempt with which during the Byzantine period they regarded the west; they must blame themselves for incidents such as the riot of 1182, when many Latin residents at Constantinople were massacred by the Byzantine populace.”

(Ware, ibid. , p. 70)

or

“In 1171, on the orders or at least with the tacit approval of the Byzantine government, thousands of Venetians in the Eastern empire had been killed, mutilated, or arrested and held for years in prison.”

(Carroll, ibid. , p. 150)

or

"[In 1188] Frederick Barbarossa … requested permission of the Eastern Emperor, Isaac 11 Angelus, for passage of his army through Byzantine dominions on the way to the Holy Land, and for the right to purchase food for his troops within them. Isaac said he agreed . . . but in fact Isaac was resolved to oppose the passage of the crusaders, and made contact with Saladin [the Muslim commander] to concert plans “to delay and destroy the German army.” About this “Byzantine treachery” there is no doubt; even the many modern Western historians sympathetic to Byzantium and hostile to the Crusades have to admit it [e.g., Emperor Isaac, in 1187, had written Saladin to congratulate him for his great achievement of re-taking Jerusalem from the Latin crusaders] …

[Frederick’s envoys, imprisoned for a time] returned to Frederick… with infuriating (and accurate) reports of the Byzantine alliance with Saladin, plans to destroy the crusading army as it crossed the Dardanelles, and the violent anti-Western attitude of Patriarch Dositheus of Constantinople, who had offered unconditional absolution to any Greek killing a Westerner. Frederick passed on this information to his son Henry… to ask the Pope’s approval for a crusade against the Eastern Empire because of its treachery and dealings with the enemy. No Papal approval was given and Frederick soon thought better of the idea … Though a war against Christians was indubitably a perversion of the crusading ideal, Emperor Isaac’s acts against the crusaders had clearly been acts of war …

Everything that the Fourth Crusade later did to Christendom’s discredit, Frederick Barbarossa refused to do, though he was directly provoked as the leaders of the Fourth Crusade never were. The extent of Byzantine provocation of the Third Crusade is obvious from the sequence of events. It would be a long time before anyone in the West would trust them again."

(Carroll, ibid. , pp. 130,132-133)
 
In the aftermath of the Crusades, Islam wipped out Christianity in North Africa except in Egypt where it was decimated to its present minority status, as elswhere in the East in the same period.
Okay, but during that period it never infested Western Europe, which was what I said. This was due to the Crusades.
 
The point is both the Catholics and the Orthodox have much to be sorry for. You can’t just point to the sack of Constantinople in 1204 and just blame the Catholics. Fortunately today, things are much more cordial.
 
but comments like these make me wonder.
Coments like what, the ones advocating bringing back you mean?
Btw, the tiara, like much else in Rome, is an import from the East, Constantinople specifically.
That doesn’t make sense to me since the Church in Constantinople was said to be the new Rome imported from Rome being founded by Constantine in a futile attempt to re-establish his falling empire.

Is there some way I am unaware that Rome is not the mother Church to everywhere else?

Sure the apostles were in Asia Minor too but to say the tiera is an import from Constantines new Rome seems contrary to the validity that the East and West were complimentary until the unfortunate obstinance which resulted in official schism.

Where does the Rome educated EP Patrick Bartholemew I keep his crown when he’s not wearing it? The Haga Sophia or Moscow (third Rome)?
 
What about those brave Christian souls that sacked Constantinople in 1204 and put a whore (literally) on St. John Chrysostom’s throne? By the time the crusades were through, the Orthodox (both EO and OO) had to look at the muslims as the lesser of two evils.

Onward Christian soldiers.
What about them? Atrocities happen in every war, and the atrocities and their perpetrators should be condemned. However, atrocities in and of themselves do not make a just war unjust.

My family comes from a land that had been Catholic since New Testament times, it was then conquered by Moslems and ruled with an iron fist for centuries, only to be finally liberated by the crusaders.

Thank God for the crusaders.
 
No tiara. It smacks of triumphalism. The Holy Father is the servant of the servants of God. This is what Paul VI intended at the end of Vatican II.

Same thing goes for the sedia gestatoria…shades of Aida with the ostrich feathers and all. The Holy Father is not a temporal power. I don’t think this practice will be resumed.
 
I voted no. There is no need for it. Peter didn’t have one, therefore, Pope should not have one. They had one in the past, but I think the Pope without a tiara is more of connected to the people than a Pope with a tiara seems rather distant.
 
Okay, but during that period it never infested Western Europe, which was what I said. This was due to the Crusades.
This was due to the Empire in the East being in the way.

Centuries elapsed after the departure of the Crusaders and the Ottomans arrival in Europe.
 
It’s also interesting to note that while St. John Vianney lived very humbly personally, he would take a portion of the offerings to make sure the church itself he pastored in was decorated beautifully. Part of his reasoning was that if the church was decorated beautifully it would encourage people to come in and pray and linger in prayer.

He seems to have possessed a good deal of common sense.
 
This was due to the Empire in the East being in the way.

Centuries elapsed after the departure of the Crusaders and the Ottomans arrival in Europe.
Yes, but were it not for the Crusades, the Byzantine Empire wouldn’t have been in the way for long. I do remember something about a Byzantine Emperor asking the Pope for help.
 
I don’t think we should bring back the papal tiara (as if “we” could, anyway) in the context of a coronation or the pope wearing it regularly. I don’t think it fits in with the image of “Christ the Servant” or the Pope as the “Servant of the Servants of God.” Now, I suppose it COULD be used if the Holy Father wanted to celebrate the liturgy according to the rites of the Eastern Churches.

I don’t look for it to come back at all. Pope Benedict did away with it on the coat of arms, even.
 
What about those brave Christian souls that sacked Constantinople in 1204 and put a whore (literally) on St. John Chrysostom’s throne? By the time the crusades were through, the Orthodox (both EO and OO) had to look at the muslims as the lesser of two evils.

Onward Christian soldiers.

Innocent III referred to it as a “work of darkness” - which is a good description.​

I think the Church is far better off without the tiara & similar splendid things: priests don’t need vestments either (at least, a fifth-century Bishop of Rome - St. Celestine, IIRC, in 429 - thought not). The Apostles needed none of this grandeur, so why should the Church ? Popes are not earthly monarchs, they are not lords, they are servants (as an OP has pointed out): so why adopt the trappings of earthly lordship ? And thank God the Papal States are gone - a bishop has no business to be a temporal ruler: unless he prefers his “kingdom [to be] of this world” 😦 Besides, it sets a bad example to the rest of us.

The splendour of holiness & faith may be less showy, & more painful in the acquiring, but it is also far more lasting.

I believe that is known in some circles as “miserabilism” 😃
 

Innocent III referred to it as a “work of darkness” - which is a good description.​

I think the Church is far better off without the tiara & similar splendid things: priests don’t need vestments either (at least, a fifth-century Bishop of Rome - St. Celestine, IIRC, in 429 - thought not). The Apostles needed none of this grandeur, so why should the Church ? Popes are not earthly monarchs, they are not lords, they are servants (as an OP has pointed out): so why adopt the trappings of earthly lordship ? And thank God the Papal States are gone - a bishop has no business to be a temporal ruler: unless he prefers his “kingdom [to be] of this world” 😦 Besides, it sets a bad example to the rest of us.

The splendour of holiness & faith may be less showy, & more painful in the acquiring, but it is also far more lasting.

I believe that is known in some circles as “miserabilism” 😃
So should we get rid of statues, stained glass, and beautiful churches too? Is it too bad that we had painters like Michelangelo, da Vinci, Raphael, and others produce art for the Church?

Has the stripping of the churches after Vatican II produced a more profound and long lasting holiness?
 
So should we get rid of statues, stained glass, and beautiful churches too? Is it too bad that we had painters like Michelangelo, da Vinci, Raphael, and others produce art for the Church?

Has the stripping of the churches after Vatican II produced a more profound and long lasting holiness?
One word: Humility.

In it lays you answer.
 
One word: Humility.

In it lays you answer.
I agree.

The humility to recognize that people aren’t necessarily going to become Catholic just because they meet our wonderful selves (which is one reason we show them the Saints).

The humility to recognize that we need beauty to help lift our hearts to God and make them grateful (which is one reason God created Nature).

The humility to recognize that God gave certain people such as Michelangelo and da Vinci tremendous talent (along with their own hard work) for a reason. And what better way to use their talents than to help adorn the House of God, which in turn serves others as this beauty helps draw others to Christ and His Church.
 
How about two words: False Humility.

How much more stripped and barren does the Church have to be to appease the iconoclastic Protestant mind?
Its not done to appease them per se’ though it can be viewed that way because certain claims they have made contain elements of truth that are noteworthy. And also they are our seperated brethren. We need to be compassionate to them as best were able. Have you read Vatican II?

The rightous motivation the Church is interested in is to honor and better adhere to the teachings of Christ. The abolition of selling indulgences and the abuse of the Papacy was definitly in that direction.

Nothing that reminds us or helps us in our faith is superflous though much else is. We must trust our hierarchy to descern these things. Not blindly but with intelligence. I think the Pope is extremely intelligent and is using the wisdom God gave Him by maintaining a humble image and isn’t doing that to appease anyone by God.
 
I agree.

The humility to recognize that people aren’t necessarily going to become Catholic just because they meet our wonderful selves (which is one reason we show them the Saints).

The humility to recognize that we need beauty to help lift our hearts to God and make them grateful (which is one reason God created Nature).

The humility to recognize that God gave certain people such as Michelangelo and da Vinci tremendous talent (along with their own hard work) for a reason. And what better way to use their talents than to help adorn the House of God, which in turn serves others as this beauty helps draw others to Christ and His Church.
Yes, and I can appreciate those who wish to exhault the Pope. I can also appreciate the wish of the Pope to present a humble image. After all we are all called to emulate the Lord who was the most humble of all.
 
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