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Joab_Anias
Guest
Do you want Dustin to view you as a king or as a humble image of Christ?Perhaps. But if and when a future pope brings the previous symbol back, you won’t mind if I cheer will ya?
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Mannyfit75
Guest
I also like to comment that the Papal Tiara looks ugly…
I prefer the current head attire the Pope has during the celebration of the Mass.
I prefer the current head attire the Pope has during the celebration of the Mass.
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DustinsDad
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Ummmm…both. Since Christ is both King and humble, the terms can’t be mutually exclusive.
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thecoach
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sure they can, Christ denied being treated as a king, remember?
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DustinsDad
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Luke 19:37-40
As he was now drawing near, at the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen, saying, “Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord! Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!” And some of the Pharisees in the multitude said to him, “Teacher, rebuke your disciples.” He answered, “I tell you, if these were silent, the very stones would cry out.”
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Lepanto
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So you’re saying that we should scourge Benedict XVI and crown him with piercing thorns and crucify him upside down?
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thecoach
Guest
why not quote where He makes HIs way through and away from a crowd that is about to crown Him as King. Come now.
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thecoach
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Geez, is following an example all that hard? Or has blind following blinded you to reason?So you’re saying that we should scourge Benedict XVI and crown him with piercing thorns and crucify him upside down?
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Joab_Anias
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So what do you think Christ would do if offered a tiera?
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thecoach
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Exactly! Thank you!!!
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DustinsDad
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His time had not yet come at that point.
Come on now coach…are you having a bad week or something? It looks like you are just wanting to argue.
I’m not.
Pray.
DustinsDad
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DustinsDad
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He already has one
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Joab_Anias
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Be obstinate all you like. Christ was exhaulted by giving himself up for you. If you want to emulate Christ you too must embrace humility. Looks like you just want to argue against the Popes decision on the tiera. We do not exhault the Pope by taking a stand opposed to his example. As you mature and begin to take your faith serious you should see this.He already has one
Peace.
O blood and water which gushed forth from the side of Christ as a fount of mercy for us I trust in you.
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DustinsDad
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I’m not being obstinate at all. Lighten up a little.
Indeed. He is my Lord and my God and my King. Not only* was* He exalted - He* is* exaulted. Infinitely and forever.
All the exhaultations we offer Him and His Mystical Body the Church here on earth only pale in comparison to the exhaultation in Heaven.
Amen to that. And I’m not to proud to slap a crown on His Vicar on earth…no matter what the neighbors say!
I’m not taking a stand against anything. I just happen to like that old tradition - I understand the old tradition and think it was wonderful - and would welcome it if it came back.
And you my friend don’t exhault the current pope and you certainly don’t exhault the office of the pope by accusing his predecessors of pride and lack of humility. I don’t think Pope Paul VI, Pope JP1 or II, or Pope Benedict have ever said such things about the previous practice or their predecessors - shame on you for putting words in their mouths.
Good grief.
DustinsDad
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JKirkLVNV
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No of course not - but it expresses it a bit more clearly IMHO.
The reverse is true as well…the outward expressions of authority don’t take away one whit from the reality that the pope is both the ultimate earthly authority *and *the servant of the servants of God . On the contrary, I rather think it DOES take away from the reality of the “servant of the servants of God.” I think that’s what the conversation is about.
The two various realities (humility and authority) are just that…two non-exclusive realities of the office of the successor of Peter. **But we have other symbols of authority and we don’t need the crown (which CAN have bad connotations) when we HAVE those other symbols. I guess it depends on what meaning we invest in various symbols, but I think there’s something to saying that weakness and humility are a greater STRENGTH than strength. Get what I mean? The Cross was an implement of degradation and torture. Now, it’s a symbol of mercy and grace and redemption. Men would shudder at the sight of it before and now, they flee to it for comfort and hope (at least, we pray they do). The Holy Father with the pastoral staff in his hand, with Christ crucified in his hand (“if I be lifted up, I shall draw all men unto Myself”), is far more authoritative, IMHO, than any king or queen in their regalia (and I’m not anti-regalia), from the standpoint of weakness and humility being true strength. **
I’m not sure I understand where you are coming from…“triumphalistic papacy” is sort of a loaded term. Sounds borderline anti-Catholic and borderline protestant to my ears. Sorry.
**Sorry, I don’t think it’s either anti-Catholic or borderline protestant at all, though some protestants may feel the same way, I don’t know (I don’t know all protestants). It’s simply the question of this thread, essentially, ie, “should we bring back the papal tiara?” (as if WE could). While I disagree with you about it, I wouldn’t presume to say that you were being other than Catholic by WANTING the tiara nor should you assume that I am less than Catholic by NOT wanting it. I believe the pope holds the exact same authority that you believe he holds. We are simply discussing what the appropriate symbol of that authority is. “Triumphalistic” may be a loaded term, but I understand it more as being a “We’re Number 1” attitude than an attitude of humbly, but honestly proclaiming the truth that there is only ONE true Church and only ONE objective means of salvation (which I believe, though God may surely show Mercy where He wills). **
I mean the successor of Peter is the Vicar of Christ on earth is he not? Just because he is* in* the world, and the office is* in* the world, does not mean it is *of *the world. I mean, that’s the mistake non-catholics make to begin with no? Absolutely, the Pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth and his authority is not of this world. I just happen to think that is better represented without a crown.
Agreed - and it’s because of this understanding that we honor the pope so much … it’s precisely because of this reality - and because as Catholics we *know *he is the servant of the servant of God. I mean - this is the faithful honoring the office of the pope, we’re venerating him, he is not venerating or honoring himself. We be the one’s doin’ that
There’s also the outward expression of authority that goes along with the office (and which many might just need to be reminded of from time to time…not talking of you but of the cafeteria catholic variety). I mean the Lord washed the feet of the Apostles - but he also didn’t chastise Mary Magdelene when she annointed his head with oil - or the folks on Palm Sunday who hailed Him as King. **No, He certainly did not, but Jesus was and is God. The Holy Father is vice-regent of the Our Lord and typically vice-regents don’t wear crowns, do they? It goes to the meaning invested in the symbol. **
I mean, let’s take Pope Pius XII for example since we have the video of his coronation…if you read his encyclicals, do you get a sense of pride? I don’t. I get the sense of explicit and clear authority coupled with an awesome humility. **I don’t argue that the popes before were wrong to wear the triregnum. I simply also don’t argue with those who now don’t and I agree with their reasons.
**
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Ultimately - all of our expressions of love, respect, adulation - whatever - all are bound up in and give glory to the Lord because we are honoring those people and/or offices that He has grafted onto Himself so to speak. **That’s the trouble with symbols: the meaning that people invest in them. Did you know that what we call the swastika is an important, even sacred, symbol to Navajos and to Tibetan Buddhists? Yet when we see them, what do we think of? They’ve passed out of use because of the meaning now attached to them. I think it’s the same with the idea and symbol that is the triregnum. I think that the very setting aside of it is NOW a symbol even more important thatn the triregnum itself. I agree with you that all of it rebounds to the glory of God. That God, however, gave specific and explict examples of how the authority He bestowed should be exercised. **
And don’t forget - some folks get jarred simply by the popemobile or the white outfit or even just by the huge crowds of faithful coming to just catch a glimpse of the Holy Father. I mean, it’s just a matter of how far we want to go not to “jar” people. I mean, I can understand not wanting to place a “stumbling block” to converts…but I think you’d have to take more than the tiara away to achieve a perfectly “smooth” road. We needn’t go to far. I quite agree. We don’t need to go any further.
I think we also need to be careful of being “embarassed” by “looking too catholic”. Sometimes you just gotta be who you are
. I agree with that as well.
Perhaps. But if and when a future pope brings the previous symbol back, you won’t mind if I cheer will ya?
Peace in Christ,
DustinsDad
** No, you won’t mind if I mourn a bit, will you?
But seriously, unless something truly strange happens and Bishop Williamson becomes Pope, I don’t think it will be an issue. I think even Bishop Fellay would have a great deal of difficulty taking up the tiara again.**
And don’t forget - some folks get jarred simply by the popemobile or the white outfit or even just by the huge crowds of faithful coming to just catch a glimpse of the Holy Father. I mean, it’s just a matter of how far we want to go not to “jar” people. I mean, I can understand not wanting to place a “stumbling block” to converts…but I think you’d have to take more than the tiara away to achieve a perfectly “smooth” road. We needn’t go to far. I quite agree. We don’t need to go any further.
I think we also need to be careful of being “embarassed” by “looking too catholic”. Sometimes you just gotta be who you are
. I agree with that as well.Perhaps. But if and when a future pope brings the previous symbol back, you won’t mind if I cheer will ya?
Peace in Christ,
DustinsDad
** No, you won’t mind if I mourn a bit, will you?
But seriously, unless something truly strange happens and Bishop Williamson becomes Pope, I don’t think it will be an issue. I think even Bishop Fellay would have a great deal of difficulty taking up the tiara again.**
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DustinsDad
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How would the action in and of itself take away from that reality? I’m a little confused here.
Naw.
I don’t know either of the two well enough to hazard a guess. But you are very right - something “strange” would have to happen for the tiara to come back.
Peace in Christ,
DustinsDad
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Joab_Anias
Guest
You are expected to exhalt God. That is our purpose. The question then becomes to what extent should we exhault each other. The Pope drew the line at the tiera. Perhaps we should respect him.
Who cares what the neighbors say. Its what the Pope says. He doesn’t want it.
Ok, I see. Sounded an aweful lot like you were saying you think it should be brought back. That is to deny the Holy Fathers wisdom and wishes.
I say nothing that History doesn’t teach. I suggest you read a factual book called “The Bad Popes”.
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Brennan_Doherty
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Yet isn’t it a good thing if there is a symbol which denotes the Church’s rightful power in the temporal sphere? I am thinking of the Feast of Christ the King where Christ is Ruler not only over the spiritual realm but also the temporal in that He commanded His disciples to teach the nations to obey whatsoever He commanded them.
I am also thinking of the fact that the Church, rightfully so, is to act as a “check” on the State. To help Kings and politicians from going over bounds they should not. Thus there should be a complementary (not exclusionary) relationship between Church and State. The Tiara can help symbolize that Christ’s reign is not only in the spiritual sphere. The restriction of the Church’s role only to the spiritual and private sphere is quite strong in our day, and unfortunate.
Thus the refusing of the Tiara, while well intentioned I’m sure, can also symbolize the letting go of a duty of the Church to work with, check, and even chastise temporal rulers when necessary when they violate the moral law in their public duties.
And perhaps the letting go of the Tiara has almost been apropos of this time when the Church seems to exercise less and less influence in the temporal sphere, to the point where even Catholic politicians feel free to ignore the Church’s teachings (along with many Catholics in the voting booth). Perhaps the Tiara would be a good reminder that Christ, via the Church, also has a say in the temporal affairs of man, not just the spiritual.
I am also thinking of the fact that the Church, rightfully so, is to act as a “check” on the State. To help Kings and politicians from going over bounds they should not. Thus there should be a complementary (not exclusionary) relationship between Church and State. The Tiara can help symbolize that Christ’s reign is not only in the spiritual sphere. The restriction of the Church’s role only to the spiritual and private sphere is quite strong in our day, and unfortunate.
Thus the refusing of the Tiara, while well intentioned I’m sure, can also symbolize the letting go of a duty of the Church to work with, check, and even chastise temporal rulers when necessary when they violate the moral law in their public duties.
And perhaps the letting go of the Tiara has almost been apropos of this time when the Church seems to exercise less and less influence in the temporal sphere, to the point where even Catholic politicians feel free to ignore the Church’s teachings (along with many Catholics in the voting booth). Perhaps the Tiara would be a good reminder that Christ, via the Church, also has a say in the temporal affairs of man, not just the spiritual.
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havemercy
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Okay fine. I think one of you should begin a petition in favor of the Pope giving me his Papal garb, ring, shoes (I’ve been wanting a pair of those burgundy Pradas for some while now), etc. Surely it would be humble of him to discard such things. He’s only the friggin Pope after all.
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