Bring back the papal tiara?

[SemperFidelis]

Gottle wins, hands down.

I don’t happen to think so.

 

[latin_rite]

If he does, be prepared to defend the pope from all those moronic anti catholics. Who will start saying that the pope thinks he is the king of the world.

 

[Joab_Anias]

I don’t happen to think so.

You are coming into the church this Easter, is that correct?

 

[DustinsDad]

There is good reason it has lost its temporal meaninig and its for those wise reasons it won’t come back.

What are those reasons?

Now here’s what the article descibed as the symbolic meaning of the tiara -

The Supreme Pontiff’s arms have featured a “tiara” since ancient times. At the beginning this was a sort of closed “tocque”. In 1130 a crown was added, symbol of the Church’s sovereignty over the States.

Is the Church still sovereign over the the states? Temporally no since the secular states have rejected this. Have you?

Has the Church rejected this? Or is it merely temporarily* tolerating* the temoral rejection of Herself by the secular world for the sake of “peace”? A valid question I think. Especially when we constantly bemoan the secular culture of death - but is this not the price of “peace” with the secular world?

Boniface VIII, in 1301, added a second crown, at the time of the confrontation with Philip the Fair, King of France, to show that his spiritual authority was superior to any civic authority.

Do we still believe that the pope’s spiritual authority is superior to any civic authority? I do.

It was Benedict XII in 1342 who added a third crown to symbolize the Pope’s moral authority over all secular monarchs, and reaffirmed the possession of Avignon.

I happen to believe the successor of Peter does have moral authority over all secular moonarchs (and all secular governments - whatever their current form). We didnt’ lay this belief aside did we?

With time, although it lost its temporal meaning, the silver tiara with three gold crowns came to represent the three powers of the Supreme Pontiff: Sacred Orders, Jurisdiction and Magisterium.

I still belive the three crowns of the tiara represent the three powers of the Supreme Pontiff. Which of those three powers of the Surpeme Pontiff do you now reject - or do you reject all of them?

And when the Pope Paul VI laid down the tiara - did he also lay down what it symbolized? I think alof of folks mistakenly think he did.

When the article states it lost its “temporal meaning”, I think it is only saying that the world at large rejects what was symbolized - not that the tiara itself came to symbolize “something else”.

So when you ask* “It hasn’t lost its worldly meaning for you though has it?”* I can only say that it hasn’t lost it’s meaning for me. I still believe in what it represents.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Joab_Anias]

When the article states it lost its “temporal meaning”, I think it is only saying that the world at large rejects what was symbolized - not that the tiara itself came to symbolize “something else”.

I wouldn’t say so much rejected as developed.

So when you ask* “It hasn’t lost its worldly meaning for you though has it?”* I can only say that it hasn’t lost it’s meaning for me. I still believe in what it represents.

I am glad you are so assured of the Popes spiritual authority. (except on this issue) Really I am. He holds that no matter what he wears. Thats the right attitude and will keep you on the right track. That authority can’t be forced on anyone and have them recieve it in their hearts though. No more than Jesus tried to force anyone to follow Him. For me this is one thing represented by a Monarch. Those are the times that have changed. Please don’t say I think the Pope is a tyrant either because I don’t. There is a scripture that says we shouldn’t anger our children to the point of discouragement. This is what I mean and why there have been revolutions in the world. Our Holy Father is just that, a father.

Perhaps you missed my last posts closing statement;

I am done pandering to this discord.

Please let it go. I know what you think and you know the humble actions of the Popes.

For me its counterproductive to argue with my brother over something so superflous. I continue to side with the Pope on the issue and you have your opinion. There is nothing more to say.

Your in my prayers.

Peace.

 

[SemperFidelis]

You are coming into the church this Easter, is that correct?

Yes, but that doesnt mean that I don’t have the common sense to decide between two arguments. You can say whatever you want about me, and I might be in RCIA, but I am willing to bet I know more about Church Doctrine and Church History than 90% of the Catholics on this board. This is not at all meant to be an arrogant statement, just a statement that shows the extent to which I have studied these topics. So maybe you should check your presumptuous and condescending attitude at the door. I’ve seen you speak time and again about humility on this thread, maybe you should learn some.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Yes, but that doesnt mean that I don’t have the common sense to decide between two arguments. You can say whatever you want about me, and I might be in RCIA, but I am willing to bet I know more about Church Doctrine and Church History than 90% of the Catholics on this board. This is not at all meant to be an arrogant statement, just a statement that shows the extent to which I have studied these topics. So maybe you should check your presumptuous and condescending attitude at the door.

I’d be very careful how much you bet, were I you. This isn’t a place where “pew potatoes” hang out much (a “traditionalist” term of scorn, I didn’t come up with it).

 

[SemperFidelis]

I’d be very careful how much you bet, were I you. This isn’t a place where “pew potatoes” hang out much (a “traditionalist” term of scorn, I didn’t come up with it).

Think as you like, but I have “held my own” on numerous threads with Catholics who have “been here for a while.”

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Think as you like, but I have “held my own” on numerous threads with Catholics who have “been here for a while.”

I’ve no doubt of that.

 

[Joab_Anias]

Yes, but that doesnt mean that I don’t have the common sense to decide between two arguments. You can say whatever you want about me, and I might be in RCIA, but I am willing to bet I know more about Church Doctrine and Church History than 90% of the Catholics on this board. This is not at all meant to be an arrogant statement, just a statement that shows the extent to which I have studied these topics. So maybe you should check your presumptuous and condescending attitude at the door. I’ve seen you speak time and again about humility on this thread, maybe you should learn some.

How on earth do you get condescension and presumption from a simple question? I thought I saw your profile say something about RCIA before and now its gone? I was curious if you had reconsidered or something?

I didn’t ask to insinate anything about your ability to reason an issue friend.

I am constantly trying to learn to be more humble. It takes the realization that I can often be mistaken to recognize my own pride. Thats why I defer to the Pope on all issues. I can’t hold a candle to that man. I am open to the possiblity I am not as smart as I think I am. Its when I don’t that I get offended.

Hope your not angry from your own presumption about my innocent question.

Peace, comes from knowing Jesus and trusting His Mercy.

You may or may not know it yet but once you begin to practice the tradition and recieve Jesus in your body much of that history will begin to take on a new dimension for you.

Anyways, I was leading to congratulating you!

Sorry if I contributed to the tone of this thread becoming argumentative among some. Further proof that you can’t force faith and wisdom down anyones throat with the power of a Monarch.

 

[Joab_Anias]

If he does, be prepared to defend the pope from all those moronic anti catholics. Who will start saying that the pope thinks he is the king of the world.

There isn’t a chance of it. He even removed it from his crest which is unprecidented.

 

[SemperFidelis]

How on earth do you get condescension and presumption from a simple question? I thought I saw your profile say something about RCIA before and now its gone? I was curious if you had reconsidered or something?

Nope, it’s still there in the religious information part of my profile. Always has been.

I didn’t ask to insinate anything about your ability to reason an issue friend.

I am constantly trying to learn to be more humble. It takes the realization that I can often be mistaken to recognize my own pride. Thats why I defer to the Pope on all issues. I can’t hold a candle to that man. I am open to the possiblity I am not as smart as I think I am. Its when I don’t that I get offended.

Hope your not angry from your own presumption about my innocent question.

Peace, comes from knowing Jesus and trusting His Mercy.

You may or may not know it yet but once you begin to practice the tradition and recieve Jesus in your body much of that history will begin to take on a new dimension for you.

Anyways, I was leading to congratulating you!

Sorry if I contributed to the tone of this thread becoming argumentative among some. Further proof that you can’t force faith and wisdom down anyones throat with the power of a Monarch.

Sorry if I came off a little hot-headed. I have been asked a similiar question by people before who want to discredit the information that I provide simply because they do not agree with it, and they use the fact that I am in RCIA to discredit it. They think that just because I am in RCIA, I am not “well-studied enough” to even have an opinion, let alone have an argument that could possibly be useful, or “gasp” correct. Nothing could be further from the truth as I am quite competent and have studied Catholicism tremendously. If you were asking an honest question then I am sorry and the answer to that question is yes.

 

[Joab_Anias]

Nope, it’s still there in the religious information part of my profile. Always has been.

I should have looked. Not in a habit of doing that.

Sorry if I came off a little hot-headed. I have been asked a similiar question by people before who want to discredit the information that I provide simply because they do not agree with it, and they use the fact that I am in RCIA to discredit it. They think that just because I am in RCIA, I am not “well-studied enough” to even have an opinion, let alone have an argument that could possibly be useful, or “gasp” correct. Nothing could be further from the truth as I am quite competent and have studied Catholicism tremendously. If you were asking an honest question then I am sorry and the answer to that question is yes.

No problem. I understand that apprehension and its unfortunate that anyone would belittle you because of what your doing. It reflects on them and not you my friend. I think its wonderful that you study and its leading you home! I do it too. I feel its been an answer to my prayers for increased wisdom. CAF is wonderful place for me to keep my hand on the pulse of my praxis. I work very odd hrs and don’t get the social interaction I should so cyber interaction, though not the same, is a blessing.

For me though study alone isn’t enough. There is something else I find in the mysteries of the Church (sacraments, prayer, tradition) that I get strength from which I find hard to put into words. Though I can’t really explain it in words because it has to be experienced, I am excited for you that you will be part of it soon and I will be remembering you from my pew this Easter.

Peace.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Nope, it’s still there in the religious information part of my profile. Always has been.

Sorry if I came off a little hot-headed. I have been asked a similiar question by people before who want to discredit the information that I provide simply because they do not agree with it, and they use the fact that I am in RCIA to discredit it. They think that just because I am in RCIA, I am not “well-studied enough” to even have an opinion, let alone have an argument that could possibly be useful, or “gasp” correct. Nothing could be further from the truth as I am quite competent and have studied Catholicism tremendously. If you were asking an honest question then I am sorry and the answer to that question is yes.

I seem to recall that Ambrose wasn’t even baptized when chosen bishop, and in the vision of St. Martin the Lord made much of that fact that he was just a catechumen (and yet knew Christian charity).

Take that for authority.

 

[THurifer2]

So what do you think Christ would do if offered a tiera?

*Revelation 14:14

And I saw, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud I saw one sitting like unto a son of man, having on his head a golden crown*, and in his hand sharp sickle.

 

[Joab_Anias]

Revelation 14:14

Totally out of context and not how Christ calls us to live on this Earth. He had to die to recieve that crown. Our example is how He lived here and where He spoke to us directly. Not His elevation in Heaven which definitly happened because of His humility here on Earth.

Mat 18:4 Then whoever will humble himself as this little child, this one is the greater in the kingdom of Heaven.

Mat 23:12 And whoever will exalt himself shall be humbled, and whoever will humble himself shall be exalted.

Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek! For they shall inherit the earth. Psa. 37:11

Mat 11:29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, because I am meek and lowly in heart, “and you will find rest to your souls.” Jer. 6:16

Mat 21:5 “Tell the daughter of Zion, Behold, your King comes to you, meek and mounted on an ***, even a colt, the son of an ***.” Isa. 62:11; Zech. 9:9

1Pe 3:4 but the hidden man of the heart, in the incorruptible adornment of the meek and quiet spirit, which is of great value before God.

Jas 4:6 But He gives greater grace. Because of this it says, “God sets Himself against proud ones, but He gives grace to humble ones.” Prov. 3:34

1Pe 5:5 Likewise, younger ones be subject to older ones; and all being subject to one another. Put on humility, because God sets Himself “against proud ones, but He gives grace to humble ones.” Prov. 3:34

Rev 5:12 saying with a great voice, Worthy is the Lamb having been slain to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.

 

[thecoach]

I’d be very careful how much you bet, were I you. This isn’t a place where “pew potatoes” hang out much (a “traditionalist” term of scorn, I didn’t come up with it).

perhaps, but then again, you are all full of sterling examples for a new soon to be catholic

 

[JKirkLVNV]

perhaps, but then again, you are all full of sterling examples for a new soon to be catholic

Yes, I realize we should be more careful.

You must not let what you see here deter you in your journey in faith. Things are said in the heat of debate that are not exemplary of the charity we’re called to, but that charity (love) is still the ultimate thing to which we are called, clearly seen in the Sacrifice of Calvary.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

I would like to say (as I alluded to in an earlier post) that it is the duty of a Pope and the Church to act as a check on temporal rulers. In a sense the authority of the Church supersedes that of any politician or ruler. And of course we have the verse where Jesus told the disciples to teach the nations to obey whatsoever He had commanded them. And He told Peter that whatsoever he bound on earth would be bound in heaven. Awesome duties and responsibilities.

Hence I am saying that the duty to act as a check on temporal authorities exists whether a Pope takes up the tiara or not. Thus it is not automatically an act of humility to refuse it or pride to take it up. Just as it would not be an act of pride for a rightful king to take a crown as it represents something objectively real—the duty to rule a kingdom and look out for his people. Naturally we hope and pray that a Pope and temporal rulers are humble and ask for the grace of God to carry out their duties.

 

[THurifer2]

Totally out of context and not how Christ calls us to live on this Earth. He had to die to recieve that crown. Our example is how He lived here and where He spoke to us directly. Not His elevation in Heaven which definitly happened because of His humility here on Earth.

Mat 18:4 Then whoever will humble himself as this little child, this one is the greater in the kingdom of Heaven.

Mat 23:12 And whoever will exalt himself shall be humbled, and whoever will humble himself shall be exalted.

Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek! For they shall inherit the earth. Psa. 37:11

Mat 11:29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, because I am meek and lowly in heart, “and you will find rest to your souls.” Jer. 6:16

Mat 21:5 “Tell the daughter of Zion, Behold, your King comes to you, meek and mounted on an ***, even a colt, the son of an ***.” Isa. 62:11; Zech. 9:9

1Pe 3:4 but the hidden man of the heart, in the incorruptible adornment of the meek and quiet spirit, which is of great value before God.

Jas 4:6 But He gives greater grace. Because of this it says, “God sets Himself against proud ones, but He gives grace to humble ones.” Prov. 3:34

1Pe 5:5 Likewise, younger ones be subject to older ones; and all being subject to one another. Put on humility, because God sets Himself “against proud ones, but He gives grace to humble ones.” Prov. 3:34

Rev 5:12 saying with a great voice, Worthy is the Lamb having been slain to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.

The papal tiara is for the Office not the person…get it straight.