Bring back the papal tiara?

[Joab_Anias]

The papal tiarra is for the Office not the person…get it straight.

No one is denying that.

What were saying is that the office exists and funtions and more fully reflects the image of Christ (on Earth) without it.

The Pope happens to agree.

 

[THurifer2]

The Pope happens to agree.

Careful…Rumors sometimes have legs

 

[Joab_Anias]

Careful…Rumors sometimes have legs

He’s already show it by actually removing the tiara from his crest.

Its not that I believe he has any problem with tradtion either. Its just because the world has changed and its no longer needed.

 

[Paradox2080]

The papal tiara is for the Office not the person…get it straight.

I’m with you; couldn’t agree more. Having said that, I don’t feel it should be worn all the time. Only on special occasions such as World Youth Day and other large public events.

 

[Joab_Anias]

I’m with you; couldn’t agree more. Having said that, I don’t feel it should be worn all the time. Only on special occasions such as World Youth Day and other large public events.

Its already gone and donated to charity. It won’t be worn again. At least the original one that is.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

He’s already show it by actually removing the tiara from his crest.

Its not that I believe he has any problem with tradtion either. Its just because the world has changed and its no longer needed.

But the duties and responsibilities it represented are still a part of the office of the Pope whether or not the tiara is there.

 

[Paradox2080]

Its already gone and donated to charity. It won’t be worn again. At least the original one that is.

Someone once mentioned this to me before but haven’t seen any evidence to prove this idea. I would be surprised if the Church auctioned off such a historic piece, even if it was for charity.

Wikipedia mentions nothing about this?? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_tiara

Feel free to prove me wrong…

 

[Pope_Noah_I]

I have just finished “The Shoes of the Fisherman”, and I found something that correlates exactly to this thread. Pope Kiril I does not want to use the Sedia Gestatoria, or the flabella, or the Crown. He said that since Christ entered Jerusalem on a donkey, he should humble himself and not use the Coranation. However, he is basically persuaded to use it, since he is the Pope. Also interesting to note, the book hit the shelves about the same time as Pope John XXIII was dying, and the Tiara was still used…

 

[Lepanto]

Its already gone and donated to charity. It won’t be worn again. At least the original one that is.

I saw it on display at the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington DC during last January’s March for Life.

Besides, there are other tiaras in storage, and a new one could also be made.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Its already gone and donated to charity. It won’t be worn again. At least the original one that is.

Actually, there are a number of tiaras available should the Holy Father desire to use one. I hope he doesn’t, for the reasons I’ve cited, but the Holy See has no shortage of tiaras.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I have just finished “The Shoes of the Fisherman”, and I found something that correlates exactly to this thread. Pope Kiril I does not want to use the Sedia Gestatoria, or the flabella, or the Crown. He said that since Christ entered Jerusalem on a donkey, he should humble himself and not use the Coranation. However, he is basically persuaded to use it, since he is the Pope. Also interesting to note, the book hit the shelves about the same time as Pope John XXIII was dying, and the Tiara was still used…

And at the end, he still took it off, if you’ve seen the movie (one of my favorites).

 

[Pope_Noah_I]

And at the end, he still took it off, if you’ve seen the movie (one of my favorites).

Well, nobody’s perfect…

(p.s. Did not see the movie, ordering it from Amazon though. )

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Well, nobody’s perfect…

(p.s. Did not see the movie, ordering it from Amazon though. )

Like I said, in the end, we’re all going to take off our crowns and cast them at the feet of Jesus. So the Holy Father got a jump on the rest of us (if we make it)!

 

[thiscatholickid]

I think the Papal Tiara should return at least for the Pope’s coronation.

Of course this extra ‘pomp’ would be balanced by a return of other humble ceremonies that have been disconintued, like the torch that represented the passing of the world for example.

Would make one very nice Mass.

 

[Joab_Anias]

But the duties and responsibilities it represented are still a part of the office of the Pope whether or not the tiara is there.

Oh yes, very much so. Though its no longer involved in worldly politics in the way it has been in the ancient past but in much better way. If you look at the history the Chruch rose to power and lost it long ago. It took this long to stand down the symbol.

I very much agree though that it has the same resonsiblity and would even go further to say that every world government has a responsibility to defer to the moral teaching of the Church in its policies.

 

[DustinsDad]

I hate to keep jumping back in here Joan after you said you no longer want to discuss this with me, but you keep saying things that I can’t help but respond to.

…Though its no longer involved in worldly politics in the way it has been in the ancient past but in much better way.

The “ancient” past? The era of the secular state cut off from the Church is actually a “fruit” of Protestantism and was “born” - at least in Christianity’s history - with the birth of the United States and the French Revolution and subsequent revolutions - culminating for the most part with World War I and then finished off almost completely after World War II. Not really “ancient” as much as “recent”. In such governments, truth is determined by the masses of people - they are the sole determiners of right and wrong. Truth is from the bottom up rather from the top down - nature in reverse. In fact, this era is quickly morphing - at least the powers that be are trying to move in this direction into not secualar states (plural) cut off from the Church - but a New World Order - one massive secular world government cut off from the Church.

So I’d say - take with a grain of salt all the “evils” and abuses one want to lay at the feet of a confessionaly Catholic State - the rejection thereof bore its fruit in the last century and continues today…that being two world wars and now a secular west where we are slaughtering millions upon millions of our own children and have embraced immorality on a scale never before seen in the history of humanity.

Where there abuses then (in the confessionally Catholic State)? Sure - we are humans after all. But I’d say they pale in comparison to what we have seen since it’s rejection. Is the current situation really better? That can only be true in the end if more souls are being won for Christ than in the past - I’d hazard a guess that this is probably not the case. I mean at least look at it objectively and realize how much of your perspective might just be the result of being brought up in a secular state that holds up these novel concepts of government as divinely ispired - and make no mistake. We neighter live in a confessionaly Catholic state nor do we even live in a confessionaly Christian state. And how many faithful catholics unknowingly embrace some of the major tenants of freemasonry - the very enemies of Holy Mother church - as if they were from God.

I guess there’s more to the question of the tiara than meets the eye.

And to the secularists who champion secualar governments as the pinacle of the evolution of human society I’d only give this line from Gladiator:

“The time for honoring yourself will soon be at an end, Highness.”

…I very much agree though that it has the same resonsiblity and would even go further to say that every world government has a responsibility to defer to the moral teaching of the Church in its policies.

Me too. And that is all a confessionaly Catholic state is - one that defers to the moral teaching of the Church in its policies. You say you agree with this - but would you agree to putting this directive, this mandate if you will, into the constitution of every world government? Or would this be a violaton of human “rights”?

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[DustinsDad]

One more things on the topic of crowns and humility.

I think modern man tends to look at all kings as prideful and lacking humility - cruel and inhuman - usurping the honor due to God alone and squashig the “rights of man”. It’s sort of the ingrained notion of moarchies that we’ve all been raised in - since we all probably live in nation states that have had revolutions against this or that “crown”.

I would suggest using King Louis IX of France (St. Louis) as an exemplary example of an earthly King. One who was both King and servant…here’s a quote from the online Cathoic Encyclopedia article on him:
“He was renowned for his charity. The peace and blessings of the realm come to us through the poor he would say. Beggars were fed from his table, he ate their leavings, washed their feet, ministered to the wants of the lepers, and daily fed over one hundred poor. He founded many hospitals and houses: the House of the Felles-Dieu for reformed prostitutes; the Quinze-Vingt for 300 blind men (1254), hospitals at Pontoise, Vernon, Compiégne.”
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09368a.htm
Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I think modern man tends to look at all kings as prideful and lacking humility - cruel and inhuman - usurping the honor due to God alone and squashig the “rights of man”. It’s sort of the ingrained notion of moarchies that we’ve all been raised in - since **we all probably live in nation states that have had revolutions against this or that “crown”. **

Some of us live in Canada, we still have a Monarch. She has a fancy crown and no one complains about her crown.

 

[DustinsDad]

Some of us live in Canada, we still have a Monarch. She has a fancy crown and no one complains about her crown.

Understood - but is that crown symbolic only - sort of like England - where the government is still directed from the bottom upor does she actually* rule*.

Genuinely curious - like alot of Americans, I am woefully unaware of the political structure of our Northern neighbor. I have heard alot lately of certain laws passed in your counry making it illegal for certain tenants of the Christian faith to be preached from the pulpit.

Have you experienced or seen this where you are?

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Yes, the queen’s role is as a figurehead, very symbolic.

Well, there are laws against hate speech, including hate speech against gays. I suppose someone could construe that in a way that would limit what a priest can say about homosexuality, but in practice I don’t think its a real concern. More of a hypothetical concern I guess, since a catholic priest would never actually give a hate-filled sermon, since we believe in loving the sinner.

Understood - but is that crown symbolic only - sort of like England - where the government is still directed from the bottom upor does she actually* rule*.

Genuinely curious - like alot of Americans, I am woefully unaware of the political structure of our Northern neighbor. I have heard alot lately of certain laws passed in your counry making it illegal for certain tenants of the Christian faith to be preached from the pulpit.

Have you experienced or seen this where you are?

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad