Bring on the Chastisement!

[Snerticus]

Pray for the conversion of sinners. That it doesn’t happen in the form or extent you would like is no reason to try to bring a curse on mankind by praying for ‘chastisement’ instead.

Also, I think such prayers would have a negative effect on you.

That I would like? What I would like is whatever God chooses. All I’m saying is that I want people to wake up, not go to hell. I want them AND ME to be slapped upside the head (either spiritually or physically, whatever works) so that we can realize what we do to Him. I didn’t realize I was praying for a curse.

Dear Lord have mercy!!! I just want Your Will to be done!

God’s mercy is in any chastisement and I don’t understand why everyone thinks I want the whole world to go to hell. Maybe I didn’t express myself the way I intended, who knows.

So therefore I will stop praying for a general chastisement. I pray for my own chastisement and that it may help in some tiny way in the remedy of our current generation. But don’t worry, I will make sure I pray that none of you suffers.

---

Dear Lord, I pray the Father’s will be done, that my will aligns with His and that no one on this earth suffers from this moment on. May all the peoples of this earth be converted, but may I request that you chastise me severely in their stead.

You know how often I cry for sinners that they may be converted and that it hurts me to see them hurt You so. Therefore, since my prayers are seen to be lacking in mercy, and I can assume that you speak through the people in this thread, I offer myself along with my prayers.

Please do with me as you see fit. I deserve everything you may give me and much more. Yet I have one more request: You know that without Your strength I could not endure what you will bring me, so I ask that you send me your strength to endure it as well.

Amen

 

[Shin]

I have to say it is not wrong to pray for the chastisement with the proper motivation, since you are merely praying for the fulfillment of another aspect of God.

It is the decision of the person who prays in union with God.

A person should be able of empathizing with both the chastisement and mercy forbearing it, because if a person is not able to empathize with both he is not able to empathize with God.

Which is something far more terrible than the chastisement.

A difficult matter perhaps but necessary and good for thought and prayer. Yes?

Kyrie eleision. Christi eleision.

 

[cheese_sdc]

Am I the only one who prays for the Chastisement?

Yes. Yes you are.

And you are insane, praying for punishment for others and yourself. That is God’s prerogative, and not yours. Pray for mercy for yourself.

 

[Snerticus]

Yes. Yes you are.

And you are insane, praying for punishment for others and yourself. That is God’s prerogative, and not yours. Pray for mercy for yourself.

How about I pray for you, instead?

If you have read my other posts and still come to the conclusion above then it seems you need a hefty dollup of mercy yourself.

However, I’m sorry if this post has caused you to suffer in any way. To post like that makes me think you have. I’ll doubly pray for you.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Thanks NeedImprovement. I wanted to get people thinking. However, I wouldn’t mind if God changes his mind on me, after all, He’s in charge. I only want people to wake up.

I don’t think I’ve said that enough because everyone thinks I want hell to swallow them up or something. When I say wake up, I mean “hey people!!! don’t you understand you’re hurting God by doing what you think is harmless!!! Look, this is what I mean…” and then have them feel the hurt that Jesus felt on the cross, or at least a degree of it… whatever they can stand. So they then can see what they’re doing wrong.

That’s what I mean by “slapped upside the head”. But no one is willing, and I guess God speaks through them so… on to my next post…

It appears the analogy of Nineve was even more appropriate than I realized initially. We only need to look at abortion as an indicator of what course the world is on right now. The Guttmacher Institute reports that, in the US alone, 22% of all pregnancies now end in abortion. That really should be a “wake up” call to us all. Additionally our world is presently flooded with distractions (some extremely unhealthy ones too) …so we pray less.

A closer look reveals there are areas already going through one type of chastisement/purification or another. And after seeing all the heartbreaking images the media is bringing us of our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ enduring terrible hardships brought on by natural disasters and war, I reaffirm that I could never wish anything like that to happen to anyone - not even to myself.

Continuing with the same analogy, admittedly, it really is difficult trying to imagine that the world could go on this way indefinitely (unless, like Nineve, we all repented) without someOne stepping in…intervening so to speak, to reset our moral compasses.

Yet I still think the most beneficial contribution I could make personally would be for me to continue trying (*struggling *is more like it some days ) to grow in prayer and holiness. That is supposed to be the greatest difference we can make regarding…how might I put it…? … the spiritual deficit of others (…or is it that “speck in my brother’s eye?” )

I think it’s good to be reminded periodically that social sin is always a consequence or sum of personal sin.

Our beloved Lord saw these present days also when He gave us that solid advice to take things one day at a time.

 

[Hlafdige]

Here’s why praying for the chastisement is wrong:

Jesus came to save sinners, not to destroy them.

We must be merciful, or we won’t recieve mercy.

Therefore, let us pray for the conversion of sinners.

“O my Jesus I offer (thing) up to You for love of You, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for the offenses against the Immaculate Heart of Mary.”

Here‘s another reason: It is the height of pride and arrogance to presume on one‘s own ability to stand faithful in the face of tribulation. We do better to pray: Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. We place God‘s promise not to test us beyond our strength (1 Cor 10:13) before Him, and leave the rest to Him.

Plus, is there any evidence that the hardened sinners you wish to see chastised would get the message? That they who blame their environment for their abortions and fornications and addictions would suddenly see the light, blame themselves, and find it in their hearts to say yes to their suffering as a gesture of repentance? A few might; but there are also some, more than a few, whom God‘s forbearance has spared until at last some faithful person‘s prayers get through to them, and they repent. All of us have abused, and again and again been reclaimed by, God‘s patience. To wish to see it end so that some fellow sinner might be „slapped up the head“ is an ingratitude that I wouldn‘t want on my conscience when the „chastisement“ comes.

 

[dang71]

It is the height of pride and arrogance to presume on one‘s own ability to stand faithful in the face of tribulation.

i agree. didn’t Jesus tell even the Apostles: “Pray that you not be put to the test”? i’d rather people be converted without the need for a “head-slap”. choosing God without a chastisement, imho, seems like it would be more pleasing to God.

 

[DL82]

Thank you for your prayer.

Yet that’s what I mean. The chastisement will hopefully convert those who are written in the book. I seriously think we need a disaster or something to “slap us upside the head” with reality. I include myself in that category.

I worry about your use of ‘those who are written in the book’, which almost seems to suggest Jansenism or predestination of some kind. God wills all men to be saved, and Christ’s atonement is perfect and sufficient. St Augustine was wrong to suggest that some would not be saved simply because God didn’t care to save them, and the Church has defined this as a heresy.

Be careful. To pray for ‘the’ chastisement could be seen to be a bit like saying ‘Thanks God, now that I’m saved, please pull the ladder up on the rest of those sinners’. Lord, lead us not into temptation.

 

[Yours_Truly]

I just finished reading the thread that said Pope Benedict has done nothing wrong. I agree. The poster who started the thread went through a litany of things that they were sick of.

I agree with them … I’m sick of the way humanity in general is behaving. Which begs the question…

Am I the only one who prays for the Chastisement?

I know I am a sinner and I am ready (or at least think I am) to be punished along with everyone else. Maybe when the time comes, I’ll wish I hadn’t, but don’t you think that at some point, God’s gotta say “enough is enough”? I think we’re pretty close to that point. The world’s love has gone cold, just as Jesus predicted.

What say you all?

Snert

I agree with what you said except I stop short of praying for it to begin. I agree with a Bishop who said that things have gone so far that the chastisement is probably what it will take to bring people to their knees.

On a related note, I expect the chastisement to being in America (and worldside) soon - by the end of the years if not sooner. I think it will begin with a total financial collapse, which has actually already begun (market down about 45%). It wouldn’t surprise me if the total collapse happened within 3 or 4 months.

As in the days of Noah, many people will mock such things right up to the time that it happens.

 

[Palomas]

I’d like to offer my .02 to the conversation.

I have felt a lot of the same feelings you’ve felt, despairing what’s going on in the world and wishing the chastisement come.

I have had a lot of encouragement recently, though, when I ask God for the conversion of celebrities, politicians, people of influence, etc, etc. Many times I seem to come across an article that shows me that these very people are having a change of heart. I’m sorry I can’t give you direct URL links here and now, but I’ll just list a few of the heartening bits of news that I remember reading about over the past two years or so and it can be taken more anecdotally. First, politicians: Tony Blair comes to my mind and was received into the church last year. I also remember reading that Joe Biden has been troubled in his heart over his support for abortion. Then, this past campaign year of 2008, politicians Ron Paul, Mike Huckabee, and Sarah Palin publicly have defended life. Next, you may have heard of the prominent Muslim journalist who was baptized by the Pope and received into the church in Italy last year. As far as celebrities go, there is the very talented Mexican actor/model, Eduardo Verastegui, who had a recent reversion back to Catholicism and has begun to use his talents for God. We see these fruits in that he produced the very moving movie Bella. He is now on the front lines in the fight for the culture of life. Just the other day, I read an article by a former Star Trek actor Gary Graham, denouncing abortion (this guy admits to having been wrapped up in the free love of the '60s and '70s and bought into the “choice” rhetoric but has now been convinced that life begins at conception). As far as scientists go, my memory is fuzzy on this one, but I remember reading an article recently about a British scientist who stopped researching embroyonic stem cells (or human cloning) for moral reasons.

Granted, in comparison to the multitudes that do NOT show up on my very short list, we can be discouraged. But I guess I look at it as encouraging signs that people are converting and having a change of heart. Doing penance and praying for conversions has restored my hope that Jesus, through the intercession of the Blessed Mother, will bring about an end to all these offenses against God. So I hope you are encouraged, and are encouraged to pray with me to see more of these miracles in our midst!

Peace to you and yours.
Palomas

 

[NeedImprovement]

It certainly is easy enough to become discouraged in today’s world. A little encouragement can do us all some good.

The thread seems to be showing some balance. It’s hard to find anyone who disagrees with Snerticus’ assessment about the world being in a serious bind from a spiritual perspective.

About 5 months ago, I had a conversation with a very loving person (who is a brand new father). Even though his wife was expecting, he was anxious, desiring something akin to a chastisement to happen. He expressed it this way: “I really wish something would happen soon; I know I’m supposed to be patient…” - This, even though he would have a newborn daughter several months later.

The above, plus this thread has had me ruminating for several days wondering whether something might be applicable here ( I might be totally off track too) . First, since the subject has recurred several times in the thread, let’s review Luke 23: 26-31 to see what our beloved Lord said regarding abortion:

[Luke 23: 26-31 , NAB]

26
As they led him away they took hold of a certain Simon, a Cyrenian, who was coming in from the country; and after laying the cross on him, they made him carry it behind Jesus.
27
A large crowd of people followed Jesus, including many women who mourned and lamented him.
28
Jesus turned to them and said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep instead for yourselves and for your children,
29
for indeed, the days are coming when people will say, ‘Blessed are the barren, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed.’
30
At that time people will say to the mountains, ‘Fall upon us!’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us!’
31
for if these things are done when the wood is green what will happen when it is dry?”

That Jesus is referring to abortion here , and so to our day also, is as clear as water to me … but it’s the second part of the passage that has me perplexed - then "…people will say to the mountains, ‘Fall upon us!’ and to the hills, 'Cover us! ’

IMO that particular setiment is a very close neighbor to wishing a chastisement would come/occur… not exactly the same, but convergent on the idea to whichever degree one wishes to interpret. The similarities are quite striking. Remember Snerticus included himself among those to undergo chastisement.

And so I really do wonder - If people who say they are desirous of a chastisement are rather presently living in their hearts that sentiment Jesus foretold … a sentiment which would equally warrant the caution DL82 spoke of since, I suspect, this sentiment would be exceedingly difficult to express in words. Seriously,… imagine it for a second …: Even if we were expressing it in the exact words Jesus did, standing there repeating out loud, “Mountains, fallon us! Hills, cover us!” , it probably wouldn’t be long before some caring friend would try to get us an appointment with a psychiatrist.

 

[Bastoune]

Great posts by all!

I would like to say that I too am one who, like most of you, offers my prayers for the conversion of sinners.

I believe that’s really all we can do. Sadly, in my opinion, based on what I have seen and experienced through the “mini-chastisements” I have faced and seen others face, a great chastisement would only serve to benefit the faithful – those who already have a faith. Maybe they are “backsliders” who still believe in God and love Him but have gotten spiritually lazy or self-absorbed. Those people, along with those who already accept God’s well as devout believers, will come out of the chastisement so much stronger.

Those with no faith will come out of it that much more separated from God, hating Him all the more, finding more reason NOT to believe in Him…

Chastisement will serve to separate the wheat from the weeds, the sheep from the goats.

We see in Holy Scripture all the time how God does His darndest to give Israel “second chances” and very few take advantage of them. Those who rejected Jesus and persecuted the Church were stiff-necked and with hardened hearts rejecting the Holy Spirit (see Acts 7:51).

With the so-called economic crisis, people of Faith will see this as an opportunity to get closer to God.

Those of no faith are already becoming so self-absorbed, wallowing in their misery, as they once were self-absorbed in their rampant materialist consumption which is what has brought on the economic problems in the first place. Now that people can’t get credit (but when they had it they sure maxed it out on luxury items not even thinking about the consequences or if they could pay) and can’t spend $20/day on lattes at Starbucks, they whine and cry and want Obama the Messiah to save them. They don’t want to blame themselves they want to blame Bush, or any scapegoat. People like that won’t convert unless a miracle happens because they are so egotistical.

We need to PRAY for that miracle!!!

Ultimately, those who allow their sin to consume them will bring about their own doom. No one knows when his/her hour is up. We only get a chance to repent when we are here. And as Christians – and most specifically as CATHOLICS who have the fullness of the Faith (see Luke 12:48!) – have a duty to get out there and evangelize the world.

You never know when that see planted will grow into something big. If God can chastise me and it can be of some greater service to the Church, so be it, amen – “…γενοιτο μοι κατα το ρημα σου και απηλθεν” – “…fiat mihi secundum verbum tuum”!

 

[ultraswamy]

The Lord’s prayer directs us to plead to God the Father that humanity not be ‘brought to the test’ (…but be delivered from evil. amen)…and this prayer, more than any other prayer IS scriptural.

IMHO, we pray that humanity in its current state of unworthiness not have to face Chastisement, but by God’s grace may be made ready, saving humanity from the loss of many souls, if we were brought to the Test in an ‘unfit’ state, and that God may instead ‘deliver us’, and so grant us the opportunity to repent and make ourselves fit.

IMO, with that understanding, and also knowing that Scripture itself is evidence that we HAVE been instructed to pray the Lord’s prayer. (Q: Lord how should we pray? A: Here, pray like this to my Father.)… then in that case, praying FOR Chastisement is not asked of us.

 

[Bastoune]

IMO that particular setiment is a very close neighbor to wishing a chastisement would come/occur… not exactly the same, but convergent on the idea to whichever degree one wishes to interpret. The similarities are quite striking. Remember Snerticus included himself among those to undergo chastisement.

I don’t think it means that people WANT chastisement. Rather, they want RELIEF from the chastisement. They don’t turn to God and repent because they are proud, so they just beg for death as relief… not realizing of course that there is judgment and HELL in the future after!

So when those people are crying for mountains to fall on them, it’s like saying, “Just kill us, we can’t take it anymore.” The chastisement is in full swing already.

 

[rjs1]

We can argue about whether it is right to call for a chastisement or not but the simple fact is that as our world turns further and further from God His judgement will come. This is a constant theme all through scripture.
Our Lord spoke of the judgements that had come on Sodom and Gomorra then went on to say that far worse punishments were going to come on future populations who rejected God. Our Lady told the three children at Fatima that the coming World War was a punishment from God becuase of man’s sin.

Those who claim that God never punishes are simply ignoring Scripture. God sends these punishments as warnings, warnings that will hopefully lead many to repentance and conversion.

 

[LilyM]

We can argue about whether it is right to call for a chastisement or not but the simple fact is that as our world turns further and further from God His judgement will come. This is a constant theme all through scripture.
Our Lord spoke of the judgements that had come on Sodom and Gomorra then went on to say that far worse punishments were going to come on future populations who rejected God. Our Lady told the three children at Fatima that the coming World War was a punishment from God becuase of man’s sin.

Those who claim that God never punishes are simply ignoring Scripture. God sends these punishments as warnings, warnings that will hopefully lead many to repentance and conversion.

I don’t know that anyone here has said that God never punishes. But if God’s punishment is a constant theme through scripture and Our Lady’s apparitions, an EQUALLY constant and important theme is that we should NOT pray for or desire those punishments to happen, on the contrary that we need to offer all the penances and prayers that we can in order to lessen or avoid them.

So there should be no doubt in anyone’s mind but that it is WRONG to call for a chastisement.

 

[NeedImprovement]

What I thought I was seeing (…been wrong plenty of times before ) was not so much praying or wishing for a chastisement, but more a desire of the heart that something excessively evil would end … so that there might be a new beginning.

Yet, as we know, there is a spiritual battle which rages all around us; and we aren’t supposed to just give up. After all, we are the Church Militant … so we should expect a struggle sometimes; kind of like our beloved Lord told us in John 16:33 :

“These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.”

There is also another camp - considerable in number , who are praying for a second Pentecost - for an outpouring of the Holy Spirit on all mankind. Those sentiments could well be attuned to Sacred Scripture (initially Joel 2:28) . It is mentioned in Acts 2: 16-19 :

16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 ‘ And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:….

In the end, it all boils down to personal holiness - What good would it have done me worrying about the end coming in the near future if I were to go out later today and die in an accident ?

God bless us. God save us. Blessed Mother, guide us and protect us.

 

[marywel]

I do not pray for the chastisement either but we really have to think that if fire and brimstone don’t rain down soon I think the people of Sodom and Gomorrah deserve a “Do-over” !!

Paul

lol … I have seen this before and I wholeheartedly agree!
I am looking forward to the return of our Dear Lord … however, I’m fully aware that I may NOT be the generation to see it … but it sure would be SOMETHING to see (calamities notwithstanding)!
What ever I WANT or yearn for, I must keep praying: “Thy Will be done on earth as It is in Heaven.” … this, I believe covers most bases … Of course the conversion of souls, reparation for sins and offenses committed against the Sacred and Immaculate Hearts, safety and strength for the persecuted Christians of the world, return of the fallen away and the poor souls in purgatory tops my daily prayer list as well
p.s. when ever I pass a cemetery, I ask Jesus to please release a few souls from purgatory and to be especially merciful to those that have no one praying for them …

 

[Cara_Serrano]

Maybe you should tell people who are behaving badly that you are praying for their chastisement. See if that wakes them up.

It’s worth a try!

 

[rjs1]

So there should be no doubt in anyone’s mind but that it is WRONG to call for a chastisement.

Why? That is, if we are praying for a warning from God that may save many from Hell and IF we remember that we are not ourselves sinless. That we too will come before judgement. Then why would it be absolutely wrong to pray that God’s judgement comes?

For example, when I read about the baby born alive who was thrown into the rubbish to die, I prayed for God’s judgement on those who do that sort of thing. Sure I also pray for their repentance but I pray that if they don’t stop then God’s judgement will come.