Bring Your Own Bell/Genl Washing of Feet

[ESimonppg]

I also disagree with Frommi’s assertion that “Liturgical rubrics are not part of the ‘teaching authority of the Church’”.

Vatican II teaches very clearly concerning liturgical rubrics in Sacrosanctum Concilium (The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy):

Chapter 1

1. (1) Regulation of the sacred liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church, that is, on the Apostolic See, and, as laws may determine, on the bishop.
   
   (2) In virtue of power conceded by law, the regulation of the liturgy withing certain defined limits belongs also to various kinds of bishops’ conferences, legitimately established, with competence in given territories.
   
   (3) Therefore no other person, not even a priest, may add, remove, or change ANYTHING (my emphasis) in the liturgy on his own authority.

Chapter 17

1. …The ministry of the priest is the ministry of the whole Church, and it can be exercised only in obedience, in hierarchical fellowship, and in devotion to the service of God and of his brothers. The hierarchical structure of the liturgy, its sacramental power, and the respect due to the community of God’s people require that the priest exercise his liturgical service as a faithful minister and steward of the mysteries of God. He should not add any rite which is not contained and authorized in the liturgical books.

Dcn. Ed

 

[frommi]

Tired:

I don’t know if it’s a liturgical abuse (it’s likely a liturgical delict), but no matter how you slice it, it’s far from orthodox.

What the heck does that even mean? Not an abuse…but far from orthodox…

I think I’m finally figuring out the definition of orthodox…its whatever someone who calls themselves ‘authentic’ happens to like on a given day

 

[Tired]

frommi:

What the heck does that even mean? Not an abuse…but far from orthodox…

I think I’m finally figuring out the definition of orthodox…its whatever someone who calls themselves ‘authentic’ happens to like on a given day

A great many people decry “liturgical abuses” when they aren’t specifically abuses. They could often be accurately charaterized as liturgical delicts.

The fact that they aren’t formal abuses dosen’t make them OK, nor does it make them orthodox. If I add something to the Mass (in this case bringing a bell and ringing it) without approval from the Church, it’s not orthodox.

 

[outtawork]

Sam88:

Time to practice obedience and patience.

obedience and patience is so difficult when things change from parish to parish, season to season… it is frustrating when things are done to “liven” up the services or out of convenience. i appreciate that these are traditions in the church, i would find it odd to be asked to bring a bell to church though without some further explanation.

if these are ways to encourage participation in the mass, perhaps more explanation of church history should be provided so people will understand. i’m not sure i would be ill, but i would like to see these occasions celebrated with a focus on reverence.

 

[frommi]

Tired:

The fact that they aren’t formal abuses dosen’t make them OK, nor does it make them orthodox. If I add something to the Mass (in this case bringing a bell and ringing it) without approval from the Church, it’s not orthodox.

Even if its with the approval of your pastor, or your bishop?

Your defining orthodox as those things that ‘match’ with a vatican liturgy…

The unity of the church does not depend on sameness in her celebrations worldwide.

 

[Tired]

frommi:

Even if its with the approval of your pastor, or your bishop?

Your defining orthodox as those things that ‘match’ with a vatican liturgy…

The unity of the church does not depend on sameness in her celebrations worldwide.

Neither my pastor nor my bishop has the authority to add to the Mass on their own. That goes for all pastors and for all bishops, including the Bishop of Rome (the Pope.)

I’m not sure what a “vatican liturgy” is. Orthodoxy in this context is defined as conforming to what the Catholic Church instructs.

As far as “sameness of celebrations” I have no idea what that means either. What I do know is that it’s not a valid excuse which allows us to ignore the Church.

 

[Nicholas_Larkin]

Tired:

Oh? I’m something of a ecclesial-use bell historian and campanologist and while it’s traditional to sound tower bells during the singing of the Gloria, I have never heard of the faithful bringing their own handbells to ring…

If you look in the GIRM, and look on the USCCB website, you will see it is encouraged to bring your own bell! Why sweat the small stuff? There are bigger problems than this! God bless!

 

[blessedtoo]

HappyCatholic01:

Just start washing your feet during the Gloria, and ring a cowbell during the washing of the feet.

That will be the last time either happen, I bet

God Bless you for this!

 

[Tired]

Nicholas Larkin:

If you look in the GIRM, and look on the USCCB website, you will see it is encouraged to bring your own bell! Why sweat the small stuff? There are bigger problems than this! God bless!

Where? Specific URL please. Thanks.

And by the way, the argument “there are bigger problems than this” is nothing but a cop-out.

 

[bejonama]

Last year at Holy thursday Mass, our new parish priest had the whole congregation process past the holy water font at the back of the church and have their hand washed!!!

I’m seriously thinking about travelling for Mass this Holy Thursday!!

 

[Rebecca_New]

bejonama:

Last year at Holy thursday Mass, our new parish priest had the whole congregation process past the holy water font at the back of the church and have their hand washed!!!

I’m seriously thinking about travelling for Mass this Holy Thursday!!

Greeting from up-over Australia down/under

When the Priest washes his hands before the consecration, I often say, me too, Lord, wash away my inequities, make me worthy to recieve You, miserable sinner that I am. I do not say this outloud, of course, but it helps me to prepare for taking the Lord’s body into my own. What a great gesture to make, to bless your hands, cleanse them with the water from the baptismal font, made clean to hold the Lord. It gives me goosebumps. :bowdown:

 

[outtawork]

Tired:

Where? Specific URL please. Thanks.

And by the way, the argument “there are bigger problems than this” is nothing but a cop-out.

i’m with you! if it’s so easy to find (which it wasn’t for me) then it’s even easier to paste into the bulletin for informational purposes.

and - there is no bigger problem than individuals trying to slowly change church doctrine. where did protestants come from? :banghead:

 

[m134e5]

The CHURCH bells are to be rung during the Gloria on Holy Thursday. The congregation bringing their own bells is a stupid idea- these types of things belong in first grade music programs- not church. Knowing people as I do, the whole congregation ringing bells will be the most memorable part of the Mass- and it shouldn’t be that way. That part of the Mass is a relatively minor one (compared to the consecration, the reception of communion, the maundatum, and the Eucharistic procession). It will also get kids too worked up and may be louder than a lot of people care to hear. As for washing each others’ feet, it’s a noble gesture, but has no place in Mass- the priest is to do it to 12 men from the congregation.

 

[m134e5]

Nicholas Larkin:

If you look in the GIRM, and look on the USCCB website, you will see it is encouraged to bring your own bell! Why sweat the small stuff? There are bigger problems than this! God bless!

Is it in the GIRM? (I haven’t checked- because honestly, to me, reading the GIRM is about as interesting as reading one of Oprah’s Book Club books…ok it’s not that bad, but still it’s pretty boring). And since when do we turn to the USCCB to learn what is and isn’t appropriate in Mass? Every part of the Mass is a big deal. Granted, it is wrong to have a fit when a priest makes an honest mistake, or to be critical when an otherwise good priest is obviously having a bad day, but if we keep letting “little things” slide, then eventually we’ll have a huge mess on our hands- many of us took this attitude for years, and it has become a big problem in many areas.

 

[NeelyAnn]

outtawork:

i’m with you! if it’s so easy to find (which it wasn’t for me) then it’s even easier to paste into the bulletin for informational purposes.

and - there is no bigger problem than individuals trying to slowly change church doctrine. where did protestants come from? :banghead:

I agree with both ottawork and Tired.

Tired - What you are describing is an innovation. The Holy Father has been really speaking out about these various innovations lately. Cardinal Arinze has also spoke recently on the subject and said that enough is enough.

Rome does get the final say so on the Mass rubrics. We have whacky innovators (perhaps, even well meaning) and even quite a few out right dissidents here in the US. They shun Rome, but this does not mean what they do is okay. There are specific guidelines. Any one who says other wise is incorrect and no amount of them arguing and insisting otherwise will change the truth. We are part of the ROMAN Catholic Church.

 

[Nicholas_Larkin]

Tired:

Where? Specific URL please. Thanks.

And by the way, the argument “there are bigger problems than this” is nothing but a cop-out.

The argument is not a cop-out, but rather, we are Christians, we are Catholics, and we have bigger problems like saving souls, and spreading the Kingdom, which should come before the bell subject. Now if the Mass was doing something terrible, then this would be a problem. I am not sure if you have ever been to any of the Easter Tridium Services at Saint Peter’s Basilica in Rome, but if you have you will recall (I am looking rigt at the paper) it invites each person to bring a bell to be rung during the GLORIA! God bless,& lets save souls! Amen!

 

[frommi]

m134e5:

The CHURCH bells are to be rung during the Gloria on Holy Thursday. The congregation bringing their own bells is a stupid idea- these types of things belong in first grade music programs- not church. Knowing people as I do, the whole congregation ringing bells will be the most memorable part of the Mass- and it shouldn’t be that way. That part of the Mass is a relatively minor one (compared to the consecration, the reception of communion, the maundatum, and the Eucharistic procession). It will also get kids too worked up and may be louder than a lot of people care to hear. As for washing each others’ feet, it’s a noble gesture, but has no place in Mass- the priest is to do it to 12 men from the congregation.

Most of your statement is opinion about pastoral practice…

The GIRM never speaks about not doing something because it will work children up, for example.

And the practice of washing WOMENS’ feet has been done for many years in this country, by many of our highest ranking clerics…some of whom were recently elevated to Cardinal.

 

[Chatter163]

Neither my pastor nor my bishop has the authority to add to the Mass on their own. That goes for all pastors and for all bishops, including the Bishop of Rome (the Pope.)

Um, the Holy Father may certainly “add to the Mass” if he sees fit. He is above all canon and liturgical law.

 

[NeelyAnn]

frommi:

And the practice of washing WOMENS’ feet has been done for many years in this country, by many of our highest ranking clerics…some of whom were recently elevated to Cardinal.

Just one comment. Just because something has been done for many years in this country is not a measure of whether it is right or wrong. There are many practices that have been done for several years that Rome has said needs to be stopped. Rome has also been arguing with ICEL for many years over the translation of the Mass we use here in the US. We have used this translation for many years but it does not make it right. This is why Rome is demanding it be corrected.

People have free will, imaginations, and big ideas. They sometimes come up with things that seem like they may be a good idea and that they believe will enhance the Faith. Although, their intentions may be good, it does not make what they do right. Because others follow suit, does not make it anymore right.
Their rank does not either.

The innovations are so many, and affect so many Churches in so many dioceses around the world, Rome is not capable of coming down on them all. There could never be enough hours in a day, month, or year to do this. This does not mean that they approve of innovations that they do not get around to condemning. We as laity have an obligation to also over see and keep things in check just in case someone’s human nature is getting the better of him.

 

[NeelyAnn]

frommi,

I have been thinking about what you have written in some of your posts. I thought I would share Cardinal Arinze’s recent comments with you because it may help to shed light on the correct way to view all the innovations.

Here is an excerpt of his words:

Cardinal Arinze discourages "liturgies to order"
“The Mass is the most solemn action of the sacred liturgy, which is itself the public worship of the Church,” the cardinal said.

Quoting John Paul II, he said **liturgy is not a “private property” and that priests and lay faithfuls are “not free to add or subtract any details” from the official liturgy. ** He said communities that are faithful to the Church’s liturgical norms demonstrate their love for the Church.

**“A do-it-yourself mentality, an attitude of nobody-will-tell-me-what-to-do, or a defiant sting of if-you-do-not-like-my-Mass-you-can-go-to-another-parish, is not only against sound theology and ecclesiology, but also offends against common sense,” ** the Cardinal said.

"Unfortunately, sometimes common sense is not very common, when we see a priest ignoring liturgical rules and installing creativity, in his case personal idiosyncrasy, as the guide to the celebration of Holy Mass."

Here is the link to the entire article:
cathnews.com/news/604/39.php

The full text of the Cardinals address can be found here:
Cardinal Francis Arinze: Hearts and Minds - Thinking about and Celebrating the Liturgy
rcdow.org.uk/fileupload/upload/CardArinze24200615015.pdf