Bringing Back Difficulty to get an Annulment

[Neil_Anthony]

I believe there are too many Catholics who don’t have a clue what they are entering into or what their wedding vows mean. There are probably more invalid marriages today than ever before.

Yes I’ve heard people say things like “Sure we’re not planning to ever split up, but if things change and we have to, you can get an annulment.”

They don’t get it. Somehow they got the idea that if things don’t work out, thats what annulment is for.

 

[dixieagle]

Emotionally painful? Before I got married last summer, my then-fiancee and I were told point-blank that a great portion of the marriage class, and one of the primary goals of the class, was to absolutely preclude the possibility of annulment by the end of the marriage classes. At first this sounded like a bit of CYA on the part of the priest, but on second thought, it’s really a tremendous act of Charity on the part of the Church to prepare for marriage so that annulment isn’t a possibility. Neither my wife nor I have to wonder or worry whether we have sufficient maturity or knew what we were doing or if we did everything properly… that was all settled before we exchanged vows. As a result, we – and also our children – can be SECURE in the knowledge that our marriage is a true, Christian, Sacramental marriage that cannot end until one of us dies. Among other things, this is tremendously reassuring! Were there some tough questions asked during marriage prep? Of course: the priest wanted to make sure we knew what we were getting into (or as he put it to me: I need to make sure you realize that you can’t ever trade her in on a new model if things don’t go the way to expect…). As a guy in this world, the prospect of truly growing up can be tough, even if the yet-unseen rewards for doing so are more than worth it.

I can’t speak to the emotional state of others or why they might find marriage prep difficult, but it seems to me that the preparation should be a lot more reassuring than painful.

I believe you misunderstood the poster you quoted. He referred to the difficult and emotional annulment process that his wife had experienced…not the marriage preparation process.

The marriage prep process must be made more rigorous, or this is a problem that won’t go away.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I believe you misunderstood the poster you quoted. He referred to the difficult and emotional annulment process that his wife had experienced…not the marriage preparation process.

The marriage prep process must be made more rigorous, or this is a problem that won’t go away.

Yea, then they go to another church, another minister they don’t really know, so they can get married in a church. It’s not about the wedding, it should be about the marriage. People are already complaining about how rigorous the process is. I personnally found preCana rather juvenile. I was 30 and everybody else was younger and all they talked about was the dress, the reception etc. I wish it had addressed deeper topics than how to use Catholic approved family planning. Maybe things have changed. But I know a lot of Catholics are living together before they get married. And admitting it, like is was something normal. IMHO They should be told to keep celibate during the engagement process. That will separate the truly sincere from the “Church Wedding” ones

 

[dixieagle]

Yea, then they go to another church, another minister they don’t really know, so they can get married in a church. It’s not about the wedding, it should be about the marriage. People are already complaining about how rigorous the process is. I personnally found preCana rather juvenile. I was 30 and everybody else was younger and all they talked about was the dress, the reception etc. I wish it had addressed deeper topics than how to use Catholic approved family planning. Maybe things have changed. But I know a lot of Catholics are living together before they get married. And admitting it, like is was something normal. IMHO They should be told to keep celibate during the engagement process. That will separate the truly sincere from the “Church Wedding” ones

We have young friends who are a “presenting couple” for the Engaged Encounter weekends here. They said that every single time, there are couples who ask if they can stay in the same room - AT THE MONASTERY WHERE THE WEEKEND IS HELD - and are surprised when the answer is “no.” Sigh…

 

[Sheeniac]

Is the concept of a solemn vow so foreign to our world today, that the vow is not sufficient to preclude any annulments?

The Church may say you have grounds for an annulment, but you know in your heart that you made a vow that you fully intended to be taken on it’s face. Self respect demands that you fulfill your part of the vow.

I think your post is terribly uncharitable. If the other person has the attitude that the vow means little, or thinks they can always get a divorce, then they are not going into a sacramental marriage. It takes two to tango. If someone decides to leave but from all intents and purposes they didn’t have that in the back of their mind when getting married, then you don’t have grounds.

It’s not a simple issue.

I’ll take the wisdom of the Magesterium over any random poster any day.

 

[cecilia97]

We have young friends who are a “presenting couple” for the Engaged Encounter weekends here. They said that every single time, there are couples who ask if they can stay in the same room - AT THE MONASTERY WHERE THE WEEKEND IS HELD - and are surprised when the answer is “no.” Sigh…

Our retreat covered things like “make sure somebody balances the checkbook every month”. My pastor assures me there is a movement to improve marriage prep in the church…I sure hope so.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

If it is more difficult to have a Catholic wedding, entailing thorough preparation and education, then there will be more Catholics who are fit for Catholic matrimony and fewer annulments. Annulments are, of course, solely dependent on the conditions in existence at the time of the wedding.

That sounds like common sense. Too many marriages are failing, so make preparation longer.

Actually I think the situation is the reverse. Too much focus on whether the marriage is prudent, meets my personal emotional needs, is properly arranged, and so on, detracts from the sancity of the act. The vow is sacred. It is a commitment to another person, for life, and there is simply no way of knowing whether it will prove to be for better or for worse. That shouldn’t matter. You’ve sworn and your word is more important than anything else.

Whilst there can be such things as invalid vows, made under duress or false pretences or whatever, it is profoundly disturbing to suggest that these can be anything other than extremely rare. Even if we are talking only about mortgage contracts, you cannot run a society where every other mortgage is found to have something wrong with it. Nor can we live with any but the remotest possibility that our marriages are not real marriages.

 

[qui_est_ce]

.

Whilst there can be such things as invalid vows, made under duress or false pretences or whatever, it is profoundly disturbing to suggest that these can be anything other than extremely rare. Even if we are talking only about mortgage contracts, you cannot run a society where every other mortgage is found to have something wrong with it. Nor can we live with any but the remotest possibility that our marriages are not real marriages.

You don’t get it. Some people will say anything to get what they want, even if it’s a lie. Usually the liars don’t care about annulments, it’s the honest one who made the vow before God that is being betrayed and seeks the annulment. This is what happened to me.

To compare a marriage to a mortgage contract is absurd. One is a legal document, another is a Sacrament entailing relationships that should FURTHER God’s work on Earth, not tear it. down, which my ex was doing to our family. HE TORE US TO PIECES.

 

[qui_est_ce]

We have young friends who are a “presenting couple” for the Engaged Encounter weekends here. They said that every single time, there are couples who ask if they can stay in the same room - AT THE MONASTERY WHERE THE WEEKEND IS HELD - and are surprised when the answer is “no.” Sigh…

We had some women at a retreat discussing how they were or had already had their tubes tied, because every time their “husbands sneezed,” they got pregnant! I’m not that old, I lived in the free 70’s pre-aids.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I agree with NOBEERINHEAVEN***—From what I hear ***it is pretty much filing the paperwork—going through the motions—and getting signed off. What a horrible feeling for people that are fighting for their marriage and really know that an anullment is wrong.
Prayers.

You should get together some people who have been through the process and find out if it is in fact a simple matter of paperwork. What you have heard is not accurate.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I agree with NOBEERINHEAVEN—From what I hear it is pretty much filing the paperwork—going through the motions—and getting signed off. What a horrible feeling for people that are fighting for their marriage and really know that an anullment is wrong.
Prayers.

You are WRONG, It’s not just a bunch of paperwork. You should talk to your priesr about this instead of spreading false rumors and insinutating those of us that have gone through the process just sailed through and broke a couple of fingenails in the signing process. Annulments are not a “thumbs up” toss up.

 

[SnorterLuster]

You don’t get it. Some people will say anything to get what they want, even if it’s a lie. Usually the liars don’t care about annulments, it’s the honest one who made the vow before God that is being betrayed and seeks the annulment. This is what happened to me.

To compare a marriage to a mortgage contract is absurd. One is a legal document, another is a Sacrament entailing relationships that should FURTHER God’s work on Earth, not tear it. down, which my ex was doing to our family. HE TORE US TO PIECES.

I really am sorry your marriage didn’t work out. None-the-less, the vow is for better or for worse. Do you realize that for many years, before annulments became so common, many-if not most-Catholics separated but remained true to their vows. They didn’t remarry or enter into relationships. They took their vow seriously, even if their spouse was a worthless son of a gun who never intended to fulfill his part of the bargain. I had an uncle whose wife was found to be mentally incompetent to contract, but even though he could have got an annulment on those grounds, he remained true to his vow until his wife died almost 40 years later. Then in his senior years he remarried.

Today, a vow comes down-apparently-to "what the definition of ‘is’ is.

 

[dixieagle]

That sounds like common sense. Too many marriages are failing, so make preparation longer.

Actually I think the situation is the reverse. Too much focus on whether the marriage is prudent, meets my personal emotional needs, is properly arranged, and so on, detracts from the sancity of the act. The vow is sacred. It is a commitment to another person, for life, and there is simply no way of knowing whether it will prove to be for better or for worse. That shouldn’t matter. You’ve sworn and your word is more important than anything else.

Whilst there can be such things as invalid vows, made under duress or false pretences or whatever, it is profoundly disturbing to suggest that these can be anything other than extremely rare. Even if we are talking only about mortgage contracts, you cannot run a society where every other mortgage is found to have something wrong with it. Nor can we live with any but the remotest possibility that our marriages are not real marriages.

With all due respect, I think you are wrong. I am not advocating “longer” marriage prep to make sure the wedding is “properly arranged” or for any frivolous reasons. The marriage “contract”, unlike the mortgage contract you reference, is a sacred covenant.

I believe, based on plenty of “up close and personal” experience with young people, that serious, in-depth education on what true Catholic marriage entails is sorely lacking and results in clueless couples who really don’t truly understand the sacramental nature of the vows they will make. They may know how to balance a checkbook, and “communicate”, but they lack understanding of real Christian marriage. Even worse, they may be marrying in the Church to make parents happy (sadly, this happens quite often) and really don’t even believe what the Church teaches about marriage.

Until strong marriage preparation is the norm, rather than the exception, we will, unfortunately, continue to see plenty of “Catholic married couples” who were ill-prepared to make their vows, and annulments will result.

 

[dixieagle]

I really am sorry your marriage didn’t work out. None-the-less, the vow is for better or for worse. Do you realize that for many years, before annulments became so common, many-if not most-Catholics separated but remained true to their vows. They didn’t remarry or enter into relationships. They took their vow seriously, even if their spouse was a worthless son of a gun who never intended to fulfill his part of the bargain. I had an uncle whose wife was found to be mentally incompetent to contract, but even though he could have got an annulment on those grounds, he remained true to his vow until his wife died almost 40 years later. Then in his senior years he remarried.

Today, a vow comes down-apparently-to "what the definition of ‘is’ is.

Marriage vows are, indeed, “for better or for worse.” However, one cannot be married by oneself; it takes two people, properly disposed. How sad that your uncle did not take his difficult situation to the Church; perhaps this good man could have had 40 more years of happied married life and children.

(It would have been even better had the mental incompetence of his wife been discovered before the marriage, during intense marriage prep, which I believe has been sorely lacking.)

 

[Orionthehunter]

That sounds like common sense. Too many marriages are failing, so make preparation longer.

Actually I think the situation is the reverse. Too much focus on whether the marriage is prudent, meets my personal emotional needs, is properly arranged, and so on, detracts from the sancity of the act. The vow is sacred. It is a commitment to another person, for life, and there is simply no way of knowing whether it will prove to be for better or for worse. That shouldn’t matter. You’ve sworn and your word is more important than anything else.

Whilst there can be such things as invalid vows, made under duress or false pretences or whatever, it is profoundly disturbing to suggest that these can be anything other than extremely rare. Even if we are talking only about mortgage contracts, you cannot run a society where every other mortgage is found to have something wrong with it. Nor can we live with any but the remotest possibility that our marriages are not real marriages.

With all due respect, I think you are wrong. I am not advocating “longer” marriage prep to make sure the wedding is “properly arranged” or for any frivolous reasons. The marriage “contract”, unlike the mortgage contract you reference, is a sacred covenant.

I believe, based on plenty of “up close and personal” experience with young people, that serious, in-depth education on what true Catholic marriage entails is sorely lacking and results in clueless couples who really don’t truly understand the sacramental nature of the vows they will make. They may know how to balance a checkbook, and “communicate”, but they lack understanding of real Christian marriage. Even worse, they may be marrying in the Church to make parents happy (sadly, this happens quite often) and really don’t even believe what the Church teaches about marriage.

Until strong marriage preparation is the norm, rather than the exception, we will, unfortunately, continue to see plenty of “Catholic married couples” who were ill-prepared to make their vows, and annulments will result.

McLean, there is little that I disagree with in your post.

There is too much focus on “what the marriage does for me” and not enough on “what will I am I willing to do for my spouse.”

There is too little understanding about the sancity of the act, the vow is sacred, it is a commitment for life, and for better or for worse. And you give your word before your spouse, family, friends and especially God. And it is profoundly disturbing to that these are not extremely rare. And we can not have good families without confidence that our marriages are real marriages.

But you are missing the point of dixieagle. I’ve been a marriage sponsor couple for several years. I am shocked with how little understanding people have of what you say is necessary for a good marriage. They don’t understand marriage is a sacrament, that it is a sacred vow, it is for life, better or worse. They are “in love”. And it is too late to educate them as their emotions have taken over. We can go through our preparation meetings, Father can have his, and at the end of the day, we can only prayer this marriage will survive.

Bad marriages are not just the fault of these young people. We failed them as parents, CCD teachers, mentors, Pastors, examples, parishioners, prayer warriors, neighbors. They don’t know what they are doing and it is we who were entrusted by God to be their teachers. What about our responsibility to God?

While in the end, these young people pay the consequences when they make bad choices but we are all the Body of Christ. It hurts us as well. Before we admonish the young people, we have to look at ourselves. There is a plank in our eye.

While I do think that marriage prep needs to be longer and more intense. However, for that to be successful and meaningful, marriage preparation needs to be a life-long process. For those where the home is good, we can make some assumptions that all is being done. But when we know and see problems in the families in the pews next to us, we have to choose to be involved, reach out, and teach. Really teach.

 

[Pug]

during intense marriage prep, which I believe has been sorely lacking.)

About marriage prep, I don’t know if anything as transitory as “marriage prep” can solve the problem for all couples. My deficit in understanding was profound when I married. I don’t think more classes and more counseling would have made more impact. It was *me *that needed to be fixed. My whole viewpoint needed to be changed. I can’t imagine that happening quickly, unless God wills it so.

Perhaps what they need to do is refuse to marry many of those who apply. They’d have to do that based on knowing the people were unfit for the sacrament, I’d imagine. Perhaps it is difficult to discern that from the outside. I suspect I wouldn’t have had the capacity to understand if they had refused me marriage.

 

[qui_est_ce]

About marriage prep, I don’t know if anything as transitory as “marriage prep” can solve the problem for all couples. My deficit in understanding was profound when I married. I don’t think more classes and more counseling would have made more impact. It was *me *that needed to be fixed. My whole viewpoint needed to be changed. I can’t imagine that happening quickly, unless God wills it so.

Perhaps what they need to do is refuse to marry many of those who apply. They’d have to do that based on knowing the people were unfit for the sacrament, I’d imagine. Perhaps it is difficult to discern that from the outside. I suspect I wouldn’t have had the capacity to understand if they had refused me marriage.

and they say the Church is too stringent!

 

[Pug]

and they say the Church is too stringent!

I don’t understand your comment. I didn’t think they say that about the Church?

 

[ASimpleSinner]

The “high rate of declaration of nullty” is additionally misleading for TWO reasons.

1. It could be the case that mostly folks who have investigated the process in advance and have confidence about which outcome can be reasonably expected pursue annulment. (I went to an attorney once about a lawsuit against a business partner… he reviewed the situation and said “frankly, I don’t think you have a good case, and I suspect he doesn’t have a dime anyway, let’s not waste our time.”)

IOW: Folks with decent cases are the most likely to proceed.

1. The percentage of annulments granted annually is in the single-digit percentage range in comparison to civil divorces… How many Catholics got divorced in the past decade? How many annulments were there? How many Catholic pursue a second marriage outside the Church?

IOW: If it were that easy & a “sure thing”, wouldn’t there be more still?

 

[dixieagle]

McLean, there is little that I disagree with in your post.

There is too much focus on “what the marriage does for me” and not enough on “what will I am I willing to do for my spouse.”

There is too little understanding about the sancity of the act, the vow is sacred, it is a commitment for life, and for better or for worse. And you give your word before your spouse, family, friends and especially God. And it is profoundly disturbing to that these are not extremely rare. And we can not have good families without confidence that our marriages are real marriages.

But you are missing the point of dixieagle. I’ve been a marriage sponsor couple for several years. I am shocked with how little understanding people have of what you say is necessary for a good marriage. They don’t understand marriage is a sacrament, that it is a sacred vow, it is for life, better or worse. They are “in love”. And it is too late to educate them as their emotions have taken over. We can go through our preparation meetings, Father can have his, and at the end of the day, we can only prayer this marriage will survive.

Bad marriages are not just the fault of these young people. We failed them as parents, CCD teachers, mentors, Pastors, examples, parishioners, prayer warriors, neighbors. They don’t know what they are doing and it is we who were entrusted by God to be their teachers. What about our responsibility to God?

While in the end, these young people pay the consequences when they make bad choices but we are all the Body of Christ. It hurts us as well. Before we admonish the young people, we have to look at ourselves. There is a plank in our eye.

While I do think that marriage prep needs to be longer and more intense. However, for that to be successful and meaningful, marriage preparation needs to be a life-long process. For those where the home is good, we can make some assumptions that all is being done. But when we know and see problems in the families in the pews next to us, we have to choose to be involved, reach out, and teach. Really teach.

Everything you said!