Britain to legalize gay marriage!

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Homosexuals argue for the right to marry on the grounds that marriage is a right denied to them arbitrarily.

But marriage was never a right. It is a “rite”, but it is not a “right”. You, regardless of your sexuality, have no right to be married to anyone at all. Marriage is a privilege. You have to seek a marriage partner, and win acceptance and consent from him/her. Marriage is therefore a ritual, an ordeal or process of sorts. It was never a thing you could demand or expect to happen by rights. Our Savior was very clear on this matter when He said succinctly that marriage was not meant for everybody.

Marriage, being a crucial fundamental building block of the family unit that brings a lot of socially positive benefits along with it, is a privilege promoted by state governments for obvious reasons. A valid complaint from homosexuals is that they are denied state benefits allotted to married couples on the basis of their sexual preferences. This is therefore a fight over privileges and benefits, not rights.

One ironic thing is that at this time in history provides one of the greatest moments of acceptance for the homosexual lifestyle since perhaps the days of ancient Greece, if even then. Domestic partner and civil rights laws and policies have created a situation wherein homosexuals today face any discrimination they encounter today with a range of legal means to combat it effectively. That discrimination is also harder to come by, as millions of homosexuals live freely today in open proclamation of their lifestyle. They are more often publicly acclaimed for their stance today in the West, and their detractors publicly shamed when they can be brought into the light of day. Woe to the policy or to the individual who can be shown to stand athwart the homosexuals’ progress!

A secondary ironic thing is that marriage represents the traditional family form, and this is exactly the thing that homosexuals define themselves by rebelling against. How much ink and effort has been spilled by homosexual leaders and theorists since the 1960’s or so regarding the need to explore alternative lifestyles on the ground that the patriarchal, repressive traditional family model is so wanting? The political anti-tradition aspect of homosexual activism has a long and storied history, straight back to the origins of the phrase so often heard today in other contexts: “The personal is political.”

Look to the work of Stanley Kurtz’ studies of the effects of homosexual marriage in the Scandanavian countries to see quantification of the effects of homosexual marriage on the larger society. The practice of homosexual marriage does seem to have a pronounced effect in eroding marriage as a cultural institution. Upon adoption of homosexual marriage laws, expect to see the marriage rate plummet across the board (even the homosexual marriage rate, after an initial on-rush). A host of problems present themselves. What Kurtz does not and cannot show is that the phenomena are causal rather than correlative. That is to say, is homosexual marriage the cause of marriage’s sudden fall from social graces, or is it a symptom?

But either way the prognosis is not good for the patient society when it has decided to embrace homosexual marriage. Expect weakened families, lower marriage rates, higher births out of wedlock, and a number of social factors formerly considered to be pathologies.

What to think of it all? We know where the Church stands. It’s a hard place to stand in many ways, culturally. But she did not get there by accident, or caprice, or blind adherence to old ways. But rather by a particular means.
 
Homosexuals argue for the right to marry on the grounds that marriage is a right denied to them arbitrarily.

But marriage was never a right. It is a “rite”, but it is not a “right”. You, regardless of your sexuality, have no right to be married to anyone at all. Marriage is a privilege. You have to seek a marriage partner, and win acceptance and consent from him/her. Marriage is therefore a ritual, an ordeal or process of sorts. It was never a thing you could demand or expect to happen by rights. Our Savior was very clear on this matter when He said succinctly that marriage was not meant for everybody.

Marriage, being a crucial fundamental building block of the family unit that brings a lot of socially positive benefits along with it, is a privilege promoted by state governments for obvious reasons. A valid complaint from homosexuals is that they are denied state benefits allotted to married couples on the basis of their sexual preferences. This is therefore a fight over privileges and benefits, not rights.

One ironic thing is that at this time in history provides one of the greatest moments of acceptance for the homosexual lifestyle since perhaps the days of ancient Greece, if even then. Domestic partner and civil rights laws and policies have created a situation wherein homosexuals today face any discrimination they encounter today with a range of legal means to combat it effectively. That discrimination is also harder to come by, as millions of homosexuals live freely today in open proclamation of their lifestyle. They are more often publicly acclaimed for their stance today in the West, and their detractors publicly shamed when they can be brought into the light of day. Woe to the policy or to the individual who can be shown to stand athwart the homosexuals’ progress!

A secondary ironic thing is that marriage represents the traditional family form, and this is exactly the thing that homosexuals define themselves by rebelling against. How much ink and effort has been spilled by homosexual leaders and theorists since the 1960’s or so regarding the need to explore alternative lifestyles on the ground that the patriarchal, repressive traditional family model is so wanting? The political anti-tradition aspect of homosexual activism has a long and storied history, straight back to the origins of the phrase so often heard today in other contexts: “The personal is political.”

Look to the work of Stanley Kurtz’ studies of the effects of homosexual marriage in the Scandanavian countries to see quantification of the effects of homosexual marriage on the larger society. The practice of homosexual marriage does seem to have a pronounced effect in eroding marriage as a cultural institution. Upon adoption of homosexual marriage laws, expect to see the marriage rate plummet across the board (even the homosexual marriage rate, after an initial on-rush). A host of problems present themselves. What Kurtz does not and cannot show is that the phenomena are causal rather than correlative. That is to say, is homosexual marriage the cause of marriage’s sudden fall from social graces, or is it a symptom?

But either way the prognosis is not good for the patient society when it has decided to embrace homosexual marriage. Expect weakened families, lower marriage rates, higher births out of wedlock, and a number of social factors formerly considered to be pathologies.

What to think of it all? We know where the Church stands. It’s a hard place to stand in many ways, culturally. But she did not get there by accident, or caprice, or blind adherence to old ways. But rather by a particular means.
Actually, according to the courts, it is a fundamental civil right.
 
Actually, according to the courts, it is a fundamental civil right.
I can’t speak for English law, but in America marriage is not a right, but rather the freedom to marry is. That might sound like a trivial distinction, but it is not. I have not rightful expectation of marriage. I do have the expectation that, having found an agreeable marriage partner who meets the criteria that we enjoy the freedom to marry.

You cannot marry anyone you so choose, otherwise I would assert my right to marry Penelope Cruz and be done with it. But this can’t work without a few problems in the way, namely: 1) I have to get her to agree, 2) I’m already married to somebody else, 3) she’s already married to somebody else.

Freedom to marry is a contractual freedom, subject to conditions. It is not an independent natural, intrinsic right such as: speech, religion, arms, etc.
 
The practice of homosexual marriage does seem to have a pronounced effect in eroding marriage as a cultural institution. Upon adoption of homosexual marriage laws, expect to see the marriage rate plummet across the board (even the homosexual marriage rate, after an initial on-rush). A host of problems present themselves. What Kurtz does not and cannot show is that the phenomena are causal rather than correlative. That is to say, is homosexual marriage the cause of marriage’s sudden fall from social graces, or is it a symptom?

But either way the prognosis is not good for the patient society when it has decided to embrace homosexual marriage. Expect weakened families, lower marriage rates, higher births out of wedlock, and a number of social factors formerly considered to be pathologies.
With all the many *heterosexual *marriages that have ended in divorce or have been annulled on the grounds that a marriage never existed even though a marriage ceremony was performed, I hardly think we can blame homosexual unions for being the root cause of any of those things.
 
Out of curiosity, could you name one or two rights of religious people that will be hampered by gay marriage?
Here are a few of the leading UK case laws where civil partnership has affected one’s religious belief in the areas of employment, business and foster care.

Ladelle v London Borough of Islington
bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2009/1357.html

McFarlane v Relate Avon Limited
bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2010/880.html

Hall & Preddy v Bull & Bull
judiciary.gov.uk/Resource…l-judgment.pdf

Johns v Derby City Council
bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2011/375.html

Catholic Care (Diocese of Leeds) v Charities Commission
judiciary.gov.uk/media/judgments/2011/catholic-care-judgment-26042011

There is an application in the ECHR for a review of the judicial decisions on all of the above cases. All of the parties in the above cases do not accept same sex unions on the basis of moral and sexual ethics of their religious belief.
 
I can’t speak for English law, but in America marriage is not a right, but rather the freedom to marry is. That might sound like a trivial distinction, but it is not. I have not rightful expectation of marriage. I do have the expectation that, having found an agreeable marriage partner who meets the criteria that we enjoy the freedom to marry.

You cannot marry anyone you so choose, otherwise I would assert my right to marry Penelope Cruz and be done with it. But this can’t work without a few problems in the way, namely: 1) I have to get her to agree, 2) I’m already married to somebody else, 3) she’s already married to somebody else.

Freedom to marry is a contractual freedom, subject to conditions. It is not an independent natural, intrinsic right such as: speech, religion, arms, etc.
Well then of course you can not marry Penelope. But if Ellen Degeneres finds an agreeable marriage partner and neither are already married, they merely seek the same freedom under civil law that you had to marry your spouse. Your ceremony might have been performed in the Catholic Church. Maybe they just want the freedom to have theirs performed by a justice of the peace or a religious clergyperson willing to perform such a union. It doesn’t harm you or your marriage in the least. Because even if one somehow believed Ellen marrying her partner harms their marriage, then I’d say that couple would have had deeper marital problems to begin with than Ellen Degeneres marrying another woman under civil law. Which does not seem to be the case with your marriage. This issue to me is much ado about nothing in the course of civil law. I find far greater problems to concern ourselves with in the world such as the poor, the sick, the homeless, the hungry, being peacemakers.
 
“I am the King’s loyal servant but, God’s first.” - Thomas More
 
Everyone understands that this is a trend which started with the movement to make men and women equivalent in society, right? When there was a legal difference between the roles of men and women in marriage, then a marriage required two genders. Now, there are no distinct gender roles in marriage under the law. Therefore, legally there is no reason to require differing genders to form a marriage.
If we were simply talking about gay marriage here I think the debate would go a little differently. The problem here is that it is standard that as “gay rights” expand, people practicing their faith are having their rights gradually stripped away. This is what I have a problem with.
 
If we were simply talking about gay marriage here I think the debate would go a little differently. The problem here is that it is standard that as “gay rights” expand, people practicing their faith are having their rights gradually stripped away. This is what I have a problem with.
You have the right to practice your faith. It is not being stripped from you. But there are gays and lesbians who simply want the same right to practice their faith as well. Take for instance a member of the United Church of Christ who might believe differently than you do and whose religion might have a different interpretation than the Catholic Church about homosexuality. And whose Christian denomination is on record of supporting gay marriage in the states. If they’re homosexual, they merely might want the right to practice their faith and have the freedom/privilege you do to perhaps marry in their church/eccelsial community. (Which you call it depends on your perspective of course.)
 
**You have the right to practice your faith. ** It is not being stripped from you. But there are gays and lesbians who simply want the same right to practice their faith as well. Take for instance a member of the United Church of Christ who might believe differently than you do and whose religion might have a different interpretation than the Catholic Church about homosexuality. And whose Christian denomination is on record of supporting gay marriage in the states. If they’re homosexual, they merely might want the right to practice their faith and have the freedom/privilege you do to perhaps marry in their church/eccelsial community. (Which you call it depends on your perspective of course.)
See previous posts - the rights have already been stripped in some countries. Pastors have been locked up for preaching to their own congregation that homosexual relations are a sin. Catholic adoption agencies across Britain were shut down when they refused to adopt to homosexual couples because it violated their belief. (how many times do I have to type this out? :rolleyes:)

Again - and I will put it plainly - if this were simply about gay marriage, the debate would go differently. I personally don’t give a flip about what two men want to call themselves, it doesn’t make it true. Where I have an issue is when they start telling me that I have to accept their personal life choices, and that I or anyone else can be imprisoned for not doing so.
 
Here are a few of the leading UK case laws where civil partnership has affected one’s religious belief in the areas of employment, business and foster care.

Ladelle v London Borough of Islington
bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2009/1357.html

McFarlane v Relate Avon Limited
bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2010/880.html

Hall & Preddy v Bull & Bull
judiciary.gov.uk/Resource…l-judgment.pdf

Johns v Derby City Council
bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2011/375.html

Catholic Care (Diocese of Leeds) v Charities Commission
judiciary.gov.uk/media/judgments/2011/catholic-care-judgment-26042011

There is an application in the ECHR for a review of the judicial decisions on all of the above cases. All of the parties in the above cases do not accept same sex unions on the basis of moral and sexual ethics of their religious belief.
Also these examples.
 
“I am the King’s loyal servant but, God’s first.” - Thomas More
Santi2, Thomas More burned people for their religion. Your concerns listed in your earlier post about the religious freedom of civil servants to ignore their responsibilities if their religion is opposed to registering relationships between gay people sits rather uneasily with your support for More. the trouble with people putting God first, is that everyone thinks up their own god.
 
Everyone understands that this is a trend which started with the movement to make men and women equivalent in society, right? When there was a legal difference between the roles of men and women in marriage, then a marriage required two genders. Now, there are no distinct gender roles in marriage under the law. Therefore, legally there is no reason to require differing genders to form a marriage.
This is the point. It is a myth. Men and women are of equal value but they cannot perform the same role. Women are child-bearers. Just because a law declares something it does not mean it is God’s law, (or if you are an atheist, natural law).

Think especially that Britain like all Europe has terrible birth-rates, the family is being disappeared as an institution for many of the population and as a result we see this social decline everywhere: tell me, do you think this is a good message for a “conservative” government to send?

This is not even to mention the idea of churches being forced to act against their beliefs as many people have said.

Santi2: you are right, I will write to my MP.
 
Everyone understands that this is a trend which started with the movement to make men and women equivalent in society, right? When there was a legal difference between the roles of men and women in marriage, then a marriage required two genders. Now, there are no distinct gender roles in marriage under the law. Therefore, legally there is no reason to require differing genders to form a marriage.
Gay marriage is not a consequence of equality among men and women. It is a separate issue.

People traditionally married to force the father to take responsibility for support of his family. One always knows who the mother is for she gives birth, but the father could be anybody - hence the reason why marriage locks the father in - children born to a married couple have the husband of the mother as their father. This is basically the reason why gay marriage has been kept out of France. It would not be in the secular republic’s interest to dilute the definition of marriage as it will break down the fundamental building block of the secular society, the family.

Like it or not, we get our next generation and so our livelihoods and support in our old age from natural heterosexual reproduction. This involves a man and a woman and an act of consensual sex. Sex between lesbians or gay people or people and animals and ultimately adults and children, as will one day no doubt follow, will not bring a new human being to replace the parents. Yes it is always possible to talk of adoption or surrogate motherhood but these cases are the exceptions to the vast majority of human beings born from results of heterosexual sex and undermining the traditional marriage will make the process of locking the father to his wife and children more difficult. This is necessary for progress, stability and future development of the society as a whole.

In addition in allowing gay marriage and not say gay civil union or some tax break to gay couples, people who hold true to their consciences and organisations which cannot recognise such unions as these go against their 2000+ yr old tenets will be found breaking the law and will be persecuted till they either cease to exist or accept the new socialist morality imposed on them by the new religion of statehood. We will not have tolerance but intolerance from pro-gay groups until people sell their souls to the new devil. Which I think is most intolerant.

In principle I have nothing against gays getting married in civil institutions as long as we have it stone that religions who do not recognise this will not be disadvantaged in any way however subtle or remote, and that individuals who feel accepting or condoning let alone celebrating this as acting against their conscience will also not vilified or criticised in any way. If I am to not be critical of gays forcing their lifestyle on mainstream culture, likewise their criticism or my lifestyle or state’s criticism of my lifestyle should never materialise. We can have tolerance but it has to be genuine two way tolerance.

If gay people feel the church is unfair in being against gay marriage, they are free to leave the church and join another church or become atheist. No-one is forcing a gun to anyone’s head here. Don’t like Catholicism, don’t be Catholic.
 
Santi2, Thomas More burned people for their religion. Your concerns listed in your earlier post about the religious freedom of civil servants to ignore their responsibilities if their religion is opposed to registering relationships between gay people sits rather uneasily with your support for More. the trouble with people putting God first, is that everyone thinks up their own god.
This is false. Do you really reason this way? The Catholic Church has existed from the time of Christ, Peter was the first Pope. No-one is thinking up their own god. To suggest this is to only look at sects like Westboro and think every orthodox Christian is like this.

Perhaps Thomas Moore burned some people for religious reasons but in his time religion was the cornerstone of society and people preaching dangerous ideas which led to instability and bloodshed were dealt with this way. Sadly the people of that time did not know about civilised prisons, reform programs, forums where compromises could be reached and so forth. And even when they tried such experiments their societies were weakened and absolutist ruler neighbours with strong and coherent societies channeling strong militaries would make short work of them. A situation like that followed in Poland where political and religious tolerance reached its height in the Constitution of the 3rd May 1791, this accelerated the weakening of the state as everyone from the royalty to the urban class and clergy had their own say and weakend the country to the point that foreign invasion wiped Poland from the map for almost 122 years. Such systems are only tenable when your neighbours have reached the same level of civilisation you have. When instead you are fighting open wars against other dukes and kings who want your kingdom and use religious connections are pretext or a Muslim or Mongol invasion has their eye on you - you can’t afford to pus$y foot around.

Religion and secular governance worked hand in hand because of the important role religion played in the life of the common man and the source of morality and model of conduct it was for him. Social upheaval is a terrible thing and it can lead to civil war and destruction/collapse of society and of course your neighbours can take advantage of it too.
 
Well then of course you can not marry Penelope. But if Ellen Degeneres finds an agreeable marriage partner and neither are already married, they merely seek the same freedom under civil law that you had to marry your spouse. Your ceremony might have been performed in the Catholic Church. Maybe they just want the freedom to have theirs performed by a justice of the peace or a religious clergyperson willing to perform such a union. It doesn’t harm you or your marriage in the least. Because even if one somehow believed Ellen marrying her partner harms their marriage, then I’d say that couple would have had deeper marital problems to begin with than Ellen Degeneres marrying another woman under civil law. Which does not seem to be the case with your marriage. This issue to me is much ado about nothing in the course of civil law. I find far greater problems to concern ourselves with in the world such as the poor, the sick, the homeless, the hungry, being peacemakers.
Of course homosexual marriage harms me, CMatt. Here’s the deal: I and my family live within the society, we are not independent atoms. We are affected by the prevailing mores. Indeed the goal of the homosexual activist is to alter the climate, to construct a new cultural system as it were. The ability of homosexual couples to marry is actually a means, it is not an end. As I stated before homosexuality at its core is a personal rejection of traditional paradigms, it is a rebellion against them. The traditional marriage is not enhanced or strengthed by extending its definition to homosexuals. Quite the opposite, its nature is changed by the extension to homosexual couples. That’s kind of their whole point in this!

Along with this agenda comes what we see today as the homosexual activist agenda advances on so many fronts as we deal with gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered issues. It is no use to attempt to minimize the cultural impact of all these issues on the claim that they do not affect anybody else, because they do. That’s the whole point in them. They are efforts to change society as a whole.
 
^^^So true. The attacks have started already!:

bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-15227344

Lib Dem attack on Catholic church over gay rights

Mr Rennie said his party should stand up for its beliefs
Continue reading the main story
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Scottish Liberal Democrat leader Willie Rennie has attacked senior figures in the Catholic church for attempting to “control” views on gay marriage.

Mr Rennie criticised threats by church leaders to invoke a block vote against proposals to allow same-sex couples to marry in a religious ceremony.

Willie Rennie was speaking to the Scottish Liberal Democrat autumn conference in Dunfermline.

He became leader after its poor showing in Scottish parliament elections.

Mr Rennie said: "I have the utmost respect for the work of the Catholic church in so many areas.

"But to threaten to invoke some sort of block vote is an affront to a liberal democracy and one that we must challenge.

“Many individual Catholics have told me they will not be following their leaders against the issue of equality for same sex marriage.”

Government consultation
Last month, the Bishop of Paisley, Philip Tartaglia, firmly rejected the notion of allowing homosexuals to marry.

In a response to the government’s consultation on the issue, Bishop Tartaglia said: "A government which favours and allows for same-sex marriage does wrong.

"It fails in its duty to society. It undermines the common good. It commits an act of cultural vandalism.

Continue reading the main story

Start Quote

Reports of the demise of the Liberal Democrats as a strong force in Scottish politics have been greatly exaggerated”

Willie Rennie
Liberal Democrat leader
“Such a government does not deserve the trust which the nation, and including many in the Catholic community, has shown in it.”

But Mr Rennie said political leaders ought not to bow to such pressure.

He added: “Challenging an organisation with 800,000 followers may seem difficult but we are prepared to be awkward to stand up for what we believe to be right.”

The Scottish Liberal Democrat leader also defended the United Kingdom, accusing the SNP government of wanting to “put up a barrier” to the rest of the UK.

His speech made the case for more powers to be devolved to Scotland under home rule.

Mr Rennie announced last month that he wants to establish a commission to look at the distribution of powers among London, Edinburgh and local councils.

The elections for Holyrood saw the Liberal Democrat group reduced from 16 MSPs to just five.

But Mr Rennie said last week: “Reports of the demise of the Liberal Democrats as a strong force in Scottish politics have been greatly exaggerated.”
 
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