Britain to legalize gay marriage!

[OrdinaryMelkite]

You have the right to practice your faith. It is not being stripped from you. But there are gays and lesbians who simply want the same right to practice their faith as well. Take for instance a member of the United Church of Christ who might believe differently than you do and whose religion might have a different interpretation than the Catholic Church about homosexuality. And whose Christian denomination is on record of supporting gay marriage in the states. If they’re homosexual, they merely might want the right to practice their faith and have the freedom/privilege you do to perhaps marry in their church/eccelsial community. (Which you call it depends on your perspective of course.)

And I would say, CMatt25, that just because THAT particular Christian denomination is for Gay Marriage, does not mean that that automatically means that Gay Marriage is the TRUTH and the rest of society should immediately support it.
You are massively “projecting,” CMatt25. Sorry.
Still like most of your posts, though. LOL.

 

[CMatt25]

Actually they are 3 townhouses down, a gay sailor and his “wife”. You can have homosexual marriage 40 miles from where I live, and the moment DADT went away they got married. I’m on amicable terms with them. I’d characterize our relationship as extraordinarily good; for example when they rented a power washer recently they let me use it. I have let them use my table saw. Etc. Very neighboorly. Early on, after having a talk with them wherein I testified to my Catholic beliefs and asked them not to discuss any sexual issues with my children, they happily agreed.

Would that the same can be said for our local public school! Or my wife’s workplace, wherein the mandatory ethics training she’s forced to undergo and the corporate culture have mandated special status for homosexuals with directions on how they should be treated, spoken of, and viewed personally. With repercussions. The same is coming to me in my job with the military, and already they are agitating to extend it all to the transgendered people. Already we have had one bout of mandatory training on the issue, the point being driven home repeatedly that the task before us to (quoting verbatim) “transform our culture.”

As per my above arguments, which you did not address but instead implied a hidden homophobia on my part.

As I read your earlier post your argument seemed to be that homosexual marriage is part of an agenda to change tradition and this harmed you and your family. Now you’re discussing training you and your wife have gone thru in the workplace. Perhaps we just have different definitions of harm.

 

[mystagogia]

As I read your earlier post your argument seemed to be that homosexual marriage is part of an agenda to change tradition and this harmed you and your family. Now you’re discussing training you and your wife have gone thru in the workplace. Perhaps we just have different definitions of harm.

Apparently you’re incapable of following my argument, or you’ve become demure. I will not rehash it. So, I’ll meet you another day.

 

[CMatt25]

And I would say, CMatt25, that just because THAT particular Christian denomination is for Gay Marriage, does not mean that that automatically means that Gay Marriage is the TRUTH and the rest of society should immediately support it.
You are massively “projecting,” CMatt25. Sorry.
Still like most of your posts, though. LOL.

Hi OM, well of course just because any faith says something does not automatically mean it should be immediately supported. Like anything folks in society try to work things out I suppose. And thanks. Most is better than none I suppose too. God bless you my friend. Peace.

 

[CMatt25]

Apparently you’re incapable of following my argument, or you’ve become demure. I will not rehash it. So, I’ll meet you another day.

Ok. Peace.

 

[Santi2]

Santi2, Thomas More burned people for their religion.

So, they say.

Your concerns listed in your earlier post about the religious freedom of civil servants to ignore their responsibilities if their religion is opposed to registering relationships between gay people** sits rather uneasily with your support for More**. the trouble with people putting God first, is that everyone thinks up their own god

In your opinion…but, then again, it depends on whether one treats homosexuality in the same league as heresy, does it not?

 

[Pork_Roll]

Just to show you how messed up things are, we (USA) permit babies to be killed in their mother’s wombs, allow open homosexuality in the military, doctor assisted suicide, and now we are seeing gay marriage becoming legal. Yet we still make it illegal for an 18 year old to drink a beer. No wonder we have the highest incarceration rate in the world.

At this point, why should drug use be illegal? I’d gladly accept legalized drug use if abortion was made illegal.

 

[Hokomai]

In your opinion…but, then again, it depends on whether one treats homosexuality in the same league as heresy, does it not?

No, it does not. Burning people for either thing is wrong and always has been, so matter whether those responsible have since been canonised or not. Incidentally, every opinion I express is my own. Telling me this neither strengthens your case, nor undermines mine.

 

[Mudgely]

Mudgeley, your citations from law do not address or defeat my point. I had said that civic law does not hold marriage to be right, but rather the freedom to marry has been. This reflects the language of the Loving v. Virginia majority opinion which you also charactize in agreement with my point.

Marriage has always been a form of the a contractual right. Yes, you do have the right of contract, and this is enumerated in the Constitution. Marriage itself is not ennumerated in the Constitution. For example, to become married you must posses a marriage license, which you can technically be denied. The Constitutionality of that denial is firm, although in practice it is exceedingly rare to have your license denied. Licensing is also largely a state matter, for example different states have differing minimum ages for marriageablity. No Constitutional gold standard for marriageablity exists, quite the opposite, it is an institution subject to local contractual regulations.

You cannot marry someone if you are already married. That’s bigamy. You cannot marry more than one person. That’s polygamy. The state of Utah was in fact forced to change its laws on that as a precondition to joining the United States. You can also not marry a person against his or her will. You cannot marry a person without finding someone recognized by the state as having been vested with the power of certifying a marriage.

Crucially, our marraige laws having come from English Common Law, wherein any public objection to your union must be addressed and resloved before the marriage can continue. This is why they say, “lf anybody has an objection let him speak now or forever hold his peace” in the traditional vow.

Marriage has always been a public contract, never a private indivisible right.

I would refer you to Judge Walker’s decision in the prop 8 matter, and also to the Massachusetts decision.

 

[John_of_Woking]

Is anyone else REALLY depressed over this. I find it hard to get out of bed in the morning knowing that within a couple of years all our rights as Catholics will be extinguished as we get sent to jail for being homophobes (we basically agree with the Catechism). Our Lady of Sorrows: pray for us

 

[CMatt25]

Is anyone else REALLY depressed over this. I find it hard to get out of bed in the morning knowing that within a couple of years all our rights as Catholics will be extinguished as we get sent to jail for being homophobes (we basically agree with the Catechism). Our Lady of Sorrows: pray for us

Across the pond in the states I can get depressed over things like a war that has now been going on over 10 yrs when Christ taught blessed are the peacemakers. Potentially innocent people being executed by the state when Christ taught to turn the other cheek and when even your own Catholic catechism teaches the death penalty in only rare if not non existent cases. I can get even more depressed over things like the poor getting poorer. The middle class at best stagnant. People preaching cuts in social programs. No public healthcare option to provide competition so the sick can be cared for with adequate, affordable healthcare. All of this going on while the rich keep getting richer after Jesus advocated so greatly for the poor and the sick, while comparing the rich to a camel passing thru the eye of a needle.

But gay marriage? I have to be honest. It is pretty far down the list of things that depress me.

Peace.

 

[Mudgely]

Across the pond in the states I can get depressed over things like a war that has now been going on over 10 yrs when Christ taught blessed are the peacemakers. Potentially innocent people being executed by the state when Christ taught to turn the other cheek and when even your own Catholic catechism teaches the death penalty in only rare if not non existent cases. I can get even more depressed over things like the poor getting poorer. The middle class at best stagnant. People preaching cuts in social programs. No public healthcare option to provide competition so the sick can be cared for with adequate, affordable healthcare. All of this going on while the rich keep getting richer after Jesus advocated so greatly for the poor and the sick, while comparing the rich to a camel passing thru the eye of a needle.

But gay marriage? I have to be honest. It is pretty far down the list of things that depress me.

Peace.

I agree. Let’s keep it in perspective.

 

[Kouyate42]

Finally, some good news on top of all the gloom.

 

[John_of_Woking]

I agree the death penalty is wrong (we at least don’t have that). I agree the poor need healthcare. I agree with catholic social teaching…preferential option for the poor etc. Nevertheless forcing catholic churches to conduct same sex marriages? Very depressed. Maranatha!

 

[Condor1986]

Across the pond in the states I can get depressed over things like a war that has now been going on over 10 yrs when Christ taught blessed are the peacemakers. Potentially innocent people being executed by the state when Christ taught to turn the other cheek and when even your own Catholic catechism teaches the death penalty in only rare if not non existent cases. I can get even more depressed over things like the poor getting poorer. The middle class at best stagnant. People preaching cuts in social programs. No public healthcare option to provide competition so the sick can be cared for with adequate, affordable healthcare. All of this going on while the rich keep getting richer after Jesus advocated so greatly for the poor and the sick, while comparing the rich to a camel passing thru the eye of a needle.

But gay marriage? I have to be honest. It is pretty far down the list of things that depress me.

Peace.

Western society is committing suicide, encouraging homosexuality, divorce and destroying the family. Yes it depresses me, more than any of the other problems. All the other social problems come from this.

 

[CMatt25]

Western society is committing suicide, encouraging homosexuality, divorce and destroying the family. Yes it depresses me, more than any of the other problems. All the other social problems come from this.

Plenty of heterosexual traditional families do not have adequate affordable healthcare for instance.

 

[Mudgely]

Plenty of heterosexual traditional families do not have adequate affordable healthcare for instance.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

Across the pond in the states I can get depressed over things like a war that has now been going on over 10 yrs when Christ taught blessed are the peacemakers. Potentially innocent people being executed by the state when Christ taught to turn the other cheek and when even your own Catholic catechism teaches the death penalty in only rare if not non existent cases. I can get even more depressed over things like the poor getting poorer. The middle class at best stagnant. People preaching cuts in social programs. No public healthcare option to provide competition so the sick can be cared for with adequate, affordable healthcare. All of this going on while the rich keep getting richer after Jesus advocated so greatly for the poor and the sick, while comparing the rich to a camel passing thru the eye of a needle.

But gay marriage? I have to be honest. It is pretty far down the list of things that depress me.

Peace.

Some of the stuff you mention IS depressing to me as well, CMatt25, but the fact that the CC could (again, could) shortly be bullied by the state into going against its own beliefs and God’s truth and be forced to perform gay marriages should depress you too, I must say.

 

[Santi2]

No, it does not. Burning people for either thing is wrong and always has been, so matter whether those responsible have since been canonised or not. Incidentally, every opinion I express is my own. Telling me this neither strengthens your case, nor undermines mine.

When the scrutiny of St Thomas More’s life is limited simply to the burning of heretics and is short of reference to laws as applied to past mores, together with his duties on the back of those laws as Lord Chancellor, it is understandable that one will tend towards a jaundiced view of the saint and martyr. A non-prejudiced study is more inclined to assess that his duties as Lord Chancellor, and conduct in regard thereto, was not in conflict with Catholic moral ethics and, will also establish that the common denominator between the martyred Thomas More and the civil servants mentioned in the case laws I provided is,conscientious objection. All invoked “King’s loyal servant but, God’s first.” when all were bound to be compliant with laws that conflict with the moral ethics of their faith.

 

[Hokomai]

When the scrutiny of St Thomas More’s life is limited simply to the burning of heretics and is short of reference to laws as applied to past mores, together with his duties on the back of those laws as Lord Chancellor, it is understandable that one will tend towards a jaundiced view of the saint and martyr. A non-prejudiced study is more inclined to assess that his duties as Lord Chancellor, and conduct in regard thereto, was not in conflict with Catholic moral ethics and, will also establish that the common denominator between the martyred Thomas More and the civil servants mentioned in the case laws I provided is,conscientious objection. All invoked “King’s loyal servant but, God’s first.” when all were bound to be compliant with laws that conflict with the moral ethics of their faith.

Any ethics which do not conflict with burning people alive for their religious activities are wrong.

Conscientious objection usually involves a refusal to undertake the activity involved in its entirely, for example, refusing to join the army. True conscientious objectors do not say: “God tells me not to do this and I put him first, so keep paying me while I refuse to do my job, or I will take you to court.” Come to think of it, that is what Thomas More did, wasn’t it - cooperating as a cafeteria Chancellor with some of what his despotic king wanted, but not all.