Brother-in-Law Pawed Me, and I'M the Bad Guy?!?!

[EasterJoy]

Just a few thoughts on physical violence:

1. In 6th grade at my Catholic school the principal set all the girls down to tell us that if a boy touches us inappropriately then we are within our rights to slap him and we will not get in trouble for it.
2. My aunt was in a bar one time when a drunk came up behind her and touched her inappropriately. She punched him and he called the police on her. The police officer shook her hand and hauled the drunk out of the bar.
3. My mom had a very good friend and neighbor when she was growing up that watched his father abuse his mother for years. One day as a teenager he realized he was a teenager on the football team that had physically outgrown his father and he had enough of watching him hurt his mother. He beat his father up pretty severely when he saw him try to hurt his mother that day. My mom and her sisters had been friends with this neighbor since they were small children, and she always spoke of him as a very protective guy that watched out for women. Last I heard, that guy wound up with a very good job as a bodyguard. I have to wonder if the desire he had to protect his mother from harm inspired that career choice.

I don’t know what the actual laws are in your area, and I am no scholar in the theological basis for when to use or not use violence, but if you find yourself in a situation with that man again I would suggest coming up with a plan for physical self-defense. I assume if this happens one more time your husband would probably go off on him too. There is no telling if his behavior will continue to escalate, and you are certainly allowed to protect yourself from harm.

You are giving examples of situations where the violence was at the very least morally defensible and probably necessary. The OP is giving an example of when it was not only unnecessary but easily could have been counter-productive.

She and her husband have a plan, which is to avoid contact with “that man” entirely and to make a statement that can be used in a legal record to let him and his wrong-headed protectors know why. They have been morally, legally, and unequivocally put on notice that they are harboring a public menace, with detailed supporting examples. No social support lost, no valuable family connection lost, nothing currently of value lost, because the entire family supports the perpetrator and inexplicably isolates or attacks the victim socially. The truth is, what the OP and her husband did is the most likely way that someone in that delusional family is going to wake up, and certainly the most likely way that anyone assaulted in the future will be able to have evidence that the entire family knew he posed a danger.

If they get a chance to make certain that younger family members were made aware of the same information the older family members got, that would be a good thing, because the chances are that the older family members either hid or misrepresented the letters they received. This couple is dealing with the threat in a sensible way, and other than making that information available to other family members who might need it but might not have it, I don’t know what else they can do. “Pray for your enemies” and be decent when contact is necessary–“if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head.” (Rom. 12:20)–and that’s about it.

 

[MtnDwellar]

I was raised in a devout Catholic Family. Apparently we have some things wrong. I was taught the only thing that comes before family is God. My brother’s wife is family. It is more wrong for my brother’s wife to boycott the family than for my brother to punch me in the mouth. Brothers fight. No one has to be right or wrong. Family members don’t have to take sides. Just because they hit each other doesn’t mean they stopped loving each other.

Calling the police and filing a complaint against a family member is almost never even considered. Family problems are resolved from within.

My father taught me lots of things. He taught me to fix a car, hunt, fish, and fight. He told me that I had to defend myself and my family. If my brother assaulted my wife, it’s the same as assaulting me. He already threw the first punch.

 

[milkbar]

If you’re satisfied that you’ve done your due diligence, then why are you here?

I’m so sad to see the arbitrary “this is molestation/that is not” lines. Things like that are why victims are afraid to ask for help. Was it bad enough this time? Was it? Was it? Shame. Shame on anyone who perpetuates this mentality. My body is mine and God’s and I have the right to decide who gets to put their hands on it. Same for every other human being.

You should see the videos that public school employees have to watch, at least here, before they are allowed to work. What you have described is exactly what they are told to look out for in order to protect children.

The absolute least you could do is press charges relating to the fondling of your own person. Get a restraining order, then you go to those family activities and he won’t be allowed to so long as you’re there. (I have no experience with restraining orders, but I gather that’s how they work.) That would get him a record. That would get him on the law’s radar. That might accidentally scare him enough to make him stop. Do something, anything, something, something, something proactive!, besides just looking for some comforting words on a computer screen from Internet strangers. If someone doesn’t stop him, it sounds like lives will be ruined. It is only a matter of time. Do something. Get the law involved somehow. Make a record. Start a legal paper trail. You should know how to do that. Something that says directly to HIM, not through certified letters to relatives but to HIM, that his actions have dire consequences and he could lose years of his life to a prison.

 

[Guernica]

If you’re satisfied that you’ve done your due diligence, then why are you here?

Because it’s a Catholic board, and I had this crazy notion that Catholics support each other in times of difficulty?

If you’re just going to blame the victim – why are YOU here?

I’m so sad to see the arbitrary “this is molestation/that is not” lines.

They certainly wouldn’t be legally “arbitrary” to a judge, or a law enforcement officer.

Things like that are why victims are afraid to ask for help. Was it bad enough this time? Was it? Was it? Shame. Shame on anyone who perpetuates this mentality. My body is mine and God’s and I have the right to decide who gets to put their hands on it. Same for every other human being.

Why are you shaming ME? I’m the sexual harassment victim here… remember?

You should see the videos that public school employees have to watch, at least here, before they are allowed to work. What you have described is exactly what they are told to look out for in order to protect children.

Madam, I used to work for a family law firm – you are not telling me anything I don’t already know.

The absolute least you could do is press charges relating to the fondling of your own person.

I’ll be the judge of how I handle that situation, thank you. Seeing as how I was in another STATE at the time, I couldn’t have pressed charges without calling the police to my teenage niece’s graduation party – and I didn’t want to do that to her.

Get a restraining order, then you go to those family activities and he won’t be allowed to so long as you’re there. (I have no experience with restraining orders, but I gather that’s how they work.)

First of all, you do not just “get a restraining order” – in the manner of going to the grocery store and buying one. You must petition the court to give you a restraining order, and I can tell you right now, any attempt I made to do so wouldn’t get past the court clerk. That’s because (as I’ve said at least twice now) there would be* jurisdiction issues *because the defendant lives in another state, 1000 miles away from me, and hasn’t been to California in 10 years.

As you suspected yourself, you don’t understand how restraining orders work, or how they are granted. Restraining orders are intended to protect victims of stalking, and Steve is NOT stalking me and does not even live in my state. In order to get an enforceable restraining order filed, I would need to produce proof that he was threatening me, like recorded phone calls full of threats, or an assault conviction. At this time, I have no such proof.

Secondly, even if he lived in my same state and my same county, in order to get such a petition granted, I would need to have Steve served with court papers letting him know that such an action had been filed against him – and the court would give him the chance to appear at such a proceeding and defend himself against the charges. Steve comes from a socially prominent family and would be interested in defending himself against such charges, so more than likely he would appear in court and try to get the charges dropped.

So think about it. He’s not hassling me now, and I can keep him from doing so by refusing to associate with him. But if I petitioned the court to give me a restraining order against him, suddenly I’d have to deal with him, wouldn’t I?

Also, if I file papers asking the court to forbid a guy who lives 1000 miles away in another state to have anything to do with me, when he’s not attempting to contact me in any way – why would it be necessary? Judges don’t look kindly on people who waste the court’s time on frivolous lawsuits; they can even impose sanctions against plaintiffs who do so.

Look, I’m sorry that YOU’RE upset that I don’t have a legal case against the guy who sexually harassed ME, Random Lady off the Internet, but I do not.

As I’ve also stated before, my nieces live 2000 miles away from their uncle, so they are not in any immediate danger of being molested by him right now. They won’t see him again until Thanksgiving, which gives me about ten months to come up with a good way to introduce the topic of how to protect themselves against creepy relatives before they have to deal with him again… and to figure out how to get such a dialogue going when their parents and grandmother would like nothing more than to see me shut up and go away and stop making these wild accusations against their poor, maligned, totally inoffensive grabby darling.

 

[Guernica]

Furthermore, even if I did attempt to get an interstate restraining order against him and it is thrown out of court due to lack of evidence as would no doubt happen, I’d only have established POSITIVE case precedent on Steve’s behalf.

Having a restraining order filed against a person – and then having a judge refuse such a petition – makes the accused party look GOOD, because the judge would be sending the message that he is NOT guilty of any wrongdoing. In the eyes of your average layman, that might as well be an acquittal.

 

[milkbar]

I pray you’re just a troll. And I’m sad for anyone who has to be around this man when no one will do anything to stop him. It seems everyone in contact with him, even his victims, yourself included, goes out of their way to convince themselves that there’s nothing they can do about it.

If you’re a real person, send your female relatives gift certificates to women’s self-defense martial arts classes, and pray to God this man doesn’t ruin someone’s life because he’s conveniently slipped through any cracks requiring someone to make him answer for his behavior. In the end we will all answer to God. I’ve done all I can, being just a random Internet lady. Come, Lord Jesus.

 

[EasterJoy]

I pray you’re just a troll. And I’m sad for anyone who has to be around this man when no one will do anything to stop him. It seems everyone in contact with him, even his victims, yourself included, goes out of their way to convince themselves that there’s nothing they can do about it.

If you’re a real person, send your female relatives gift certificates to women’s self-defense martial arts classes, and pray to God this man doesn’t ruin someone’s life because he’s conveniently slipped through any cracks requiring someone to make him answer for his behavior. In the end we will all answer to God. I’ve done all I can, being just a random Internet lady. Come, Lord Jesus.

Somehow you do not understand that maybe someone else understands the way the law actually treats these situations, as opposed to the way we might wish it did? And that makes her a possible troll? Re-think your strategy when it comes to helping this poster, maybe?

She understands her situation perfectly well, and she is doing what can be done at present, both under the law and under the normal boundaries of what familial affection requires. Thank goodness that her husband gets that.

 

[EasterJoy]

I was raised in a devout Catholic Family. Apparently we have some things wrong. I was taught the only thing that comes before family is God. My brother’s wife is family. It is more wrong for my brother’s wife to boycott the family than for my brother to punch me in the mouth. Brothers fight. No one has to be right or wrong. Family members don’t have to take sides. Just because they hit each other doesn’t mean they stopped loving each other.

Calling the police and filing a complaint against a family member is almost never even considered. Family problems are resolved from within.

My father taught me lots of things. He taught me to fix a car, hunt, fish, and fight. He told me that I had to defend myself and my family. If my brother assaulted my wife, it’s the same as assaulting me. He already threw the first punch.

Just because they hit each other doesn’t mean they stopped loving each other? Are you for real? Remember please that we are not talking about 13 year olds. We’re talking about grown men. How often do the adults in your family hit each other? Let me guess: If your brother robbed your house and cleaned out your bank account, it would be OK to get a gun and shoot him in both his kneecaps, but it wouldn’t be OK to just call the police and have him face the normal consequences for his theft?

No wonder the police hate responding to domestic disputes…when they get there, they get some version of “Civilized? We don’t do civilized! We’re FAMILY!!!”

 

[The_Bucket]

If I witnessed a male family member touching my wife inappropriately, I’d absolutely deck him. The situation would have to be clear cut, not a joke, not defensible in any way… but yeah I’d lay him out. I can’t imagine any scenario where that would happen in my life and given that this guy does not do this in ways that are overt, undeniable or in front of his brother, then the decision that has been made seems to be the right one.

But yes EasterJoy, if I saw my brother sexually assaulting my wife, I’d lay him out and probably call the police immediately. It can’t be a premeditated thing and if that’s what MtnDwellar is suggesting, that’s just vigilante justice and it’s not only ridiculous it’s quite illegal. If it happened in front of me though, I wouldn’t just say “that’s it, I’m leaving and never coming back,” my brother or other male relative would be unconscious when the police came to arrest him. Given that my family lives in the South, I doubt I’d get charged for anything.

 

[MtnDwellar]

Just because they hit each other doesn’t mean they stopped loving each other? Are you for real?

Completely real.

Remember please that we are not talking about 13 year olds. We’re talking about grown men. How often do the adults in your family hit each other?

Someone gets hit whenever that person gets drunk and assaults someone’s wife.

Let me guess: If your brother robbed your house and cleaned out your bank account, it would be OK to get a gun and shoot him in both his kneecaps, but it wouldn’t be OK to just call the police and have him face the normal consequences for his theft?

You guessed wrong. Please try again. Is this a game? Can I try guessing? If your brother-in-law assaults you and your husband is available in the same house at the time. You would like your husband to remedy the situation.

No wonder the police hate responding to domestic disputes…when they get there, they get some version of “Civilized? We don’t do civilized! We’re FAMILY!!!”

This statement does not relate to any of mine.

 

[EasterJoy]

Completely real.
Someone gets hit whenever that person gets drunk and assaults someone’s wife.
You guessed wrong. Please try again. Is this a game? Can I try guessing? If your brother-in-law assaults you and your husband is available in the same house at the time. You would like your husband to remedy the situation.
This statement does not relate to any of mine.

No, actually, if my brother-in-law did what hers did, I’d want my husband to do what hers did. I suspect that is because she and I a) understand how the law really operates in this country and b) understand how this kind of family actually plays its conflicts out in real life. This isn’t your family. No, this is the one *she *married into. Do not forget that.

If you think her husband could deck Mama’s little boy without repercussion, including getting the police called in on him, think again. Neither should you forget that this family has failed–nay, refused!–to welcome their sister-in-law from the get-go. They have totally failed at family, and there is not a single reason in the world for her to keep beating her head against the wall in the hopes of changing that. If they ever want to change, they can come and find her. In the meantime, I think she’s had enough emotional abuse from the family as a whole, never mind the gropes from Mr. He-Doesn’t-Mean-It.

 

[MtnDwellar]

This isn’t your family. No, this is the one *she *married into. Do not forget that.

She is part of the family now. When you marry someone - the family is part of the package. Daughter-in-laws are like daughters. Brother-in-laws are like brothers. It takes work. I know that family values have greatly diminished in modern times. I’m still old fashioned.

 

[cheezey]

If I witnessed a male family member touching my wife inappropriately, I’d absolutely deck him. The situation would have to be clear cut, not a joke, not defensible in any way… but yeah I’d lay him out. I can’t imagine any scenario where that would happen in my life and given that this guy does not do this in ways that are overt, undeniable or in front of his brother, then the decision that has been made seems to be the right one.

But yes EasterJoy, if I saw my brother sexually assaulting my wife, I’d lay him out and probably call the police immediately. It can’t be a premeditated thing and if that’s what MtnDwellar is suggesting, that’s just vigilante justice and it’s not only ridiculous it’s quite illegal. If it happened in front of me though, I wouldn’t just say “that’s it, I’m leaving and never coming back,” my brother or other male relative would be unconscious when the police came to arrest him. Given that my family lives in the South, I doubt I’d get charged for anything.

good post. As with a lot of things, what we should and should not do, comes a few beats after what we actually do. While not the best option of course, and something we should strive against, the reality is, protective inclination ‘strikes’ first. Yup, my reaction would be to deck the guy. I’d feel badly about it afterwards, when he has been made known for what he is.

 

[EasterJoy]

She is part of the family now. When you marry someone - the family is part of the package. Daughter-in-laws are like daughters. Brother-in-laws are like brothers. It takes work. I know that family values have greatly diminished in modern times. I’m still old fashioned.

That’s the memo in my family, but apparently her in-laws didn’t get that one. They have never accepted her, and there gets to be a point where she is not bound to keep beating her head against the wall so that she can be abused.

After all, if your spouse abuses you, you aren’t morally bound to stick around and take it. You work to change the situation, but if the offender is having none of it, you have a right to live in peace…which is to say there are situations where separation is allowed even though the bond is remaining. The extended family can expect no more out of marriage’s bond than a spouse can!

As with a spouse, you don’t hit back when you’re abused. You object, and if there is a lack of any will to repent, you get to leave. Unless your back is against the wall, though, you do not get to hit.

 

[maryjk]

That’s the memo in my family, but apparently her in-laws didn’t get that one. They have never accepted her, and there gets to be a point where she is not bound to keep beating her head against the wall so that she can be abused.

After all, if your spouse abuses you, you aren’t morally bound to stick around and take it. You work to change the situation, but if the offender is having none of it, you have a right to live in peace…which is to say there are situations where separation is allowed even though the bond is remaining. The extended family can expect no more out of marriage’s bond than a spouse can!

As with a spouse, you don’t hit back when you’re abused. You object, and if there is a lack of any will to repent, you get to leave. Unless your back is against the wall, though, you do not get to hit.

I have been reading this back and forth between the two of you. Generally thinking that it all really depends on the situation.

That is, until I read this.

Do you really believe that if a husband is beating his wife, she shouldn’t hit back? She shouldn’t try to defend herself? That she should just take it?

The right to self defense is a right. No one should be told that they can’t fight back.

 

[maximus]

This Steve sounds like a movie character in a raunchy modern comedy. Please forgive me but I laughed at some points. Oh boy we live in interesting times with even more interesting families. I have some minor annoyances with my relatives, I can’t imagine having to deal with something like this. This Steve needs a Psychiatrist.

 

[EasterJoy]

This Steve sounds like a movie character in a raunchy modern comedy. Please forgive me but I laughed at some points. Oh boy we live in interesting times with even more interesting families. I have some minor annoyances with my relatives, I can’t imagine having to deal with something like this. This Steve needs a Psychiatrist.

Steve needs boundaries suitable to his capacity, whatever that is, but he needs boundaries to keep him from offending innocent people. His problem may be psychiatric, but it may not. All we can conclude, if we presume the OP is giving an honest account, is that his lack of self-control is simply indulged by his mother and family. Even if her version is one-sided, though, I think she ought to be able to avoid people who offend her so much without any qualms.

 

[90Domer]

People like your inlaws are how molesters operate with impunity.

People like you are how creeps finally get caught.

Don’t go changing!

And I worry that this behavior will be turned on your niece or own children some day. I would run and never look back. I also agree with the thoughts of reporting him. It may save him from doing something worse to someone else (not saying your encounter wasn’t bad, because it was).

 

[90Domer]

I have to disagree.

I’ve seen how 21st century law works first hand, the rapist goes free and the victim is told to get over it. As for family strife - there should be strife (and a lot of it) if that’s how a brother is going to act.

But would you want to risk having “Uncle Steve” file an assault charge on the person who decked him?

 

[90Domer]

Well well well – a sexist putdown in a thread about sexual harassment. How cute and how funny.

I’d thank you not to patronize the lady, sir. EasterJoy’s commentary has been very intelligent and well-reasoned, and of great constructive use to me.

Meanwhile, the testosterone-fueled “You should just BEAT HIM UP!” posturing some posters have… contributed here has been less than helpful, and I’d actually thank you just to cut it out, if you please.

Violence is not the answer, and has never been considered as an option.

This is coming from my 6’7" husband (and not thin as a rail): it takes a bigger man to step away from a fight and let justice handle the situation for you.

I have to admit that I am shocked over the assault recommendations. My goodness, two wrongs don’t make a right.