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TMC
Guest
Seems to me that position has more scriptural support than the other theories tossed about on this thread.
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JB_Brother_4446
Guest
Apparently Jerome states his cousins theory was not the majority accepted belief at the time.
And that is an extra-scriptural belief as well.
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JB_Brother_4446
Guest
No, they were probably his cousins. Apparently you think Salome is a stepsister of Jesus because of Mark 15:40. However only James and Joses are sons of that Mary and it’s already been established that the Mary mentioned in that text is a different person from Mary mother of Jesus.
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Eliza10
Guest
I think you are allowed!
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prodromos
Guest
I know it because that is the knowledge passed down by the Church.
Salome does not equal Mary.
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JB_Brother_4446
Guest
And she says those Marys are seperate entities!
Oh the “Mary the wife of Clopas is Mary’s sister argument?” There are several indications that Salome is sister of Mary mother of Jesus. Why? You really expect two sisters to have the name “Mary?”Salome does not equal Mary.
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prodromos
Guest
I have made no reference to any Mary other than the Theotokos. What exactly do you think I am arguing?
Scripture clearly states that the wife of Zebedee and mother of the Apostles James and John is named Salome. Orthodox Tradition states that Salome is one of Joseph the Betrothed’s daughters. I have no clue why you bring up Mary of Cleopas as I have made no reference to her at all.Oh the “Mary the wife of Clopas is Mary’s sister argument?” There are several indications that Salome is sister of Mary mother of Jesus. Why? You really expect two sisters to have the name “Mary?”
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JB_Brother_4446
Guest
Well there are 3 Marys at the cross along with Salome.
And I’m saying the mother of James and John is Mother Mary’s sister.
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prodromos
Guest
Still don’t understand what that has to do with my argument.
It would not be unrealistic for Salome to be referred to as Mary’s sister given their similarity in age and their ties to Joseph’s household, Salome being his daugther and Mary being his betrothed, but Tradition is clear that Mary the Theotokos was the only child of Saints Joachim and Anna.
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JB_Brother_4446
Guest
What Tradition?
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Huiou_Theou
Guest
I didn’t say they were definitely the same.
But you didn’t say which “James” you think was at Jerusalem, acting as bishop.
You merely said “James”.
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JB_Brother_4446
Guest
I mean there were three Jameses:
James the Great 1st cousin of Jesus
James the Less half cousin of Jesus
James the Just stepbrother of Jesus from a previous marriage
3 of them believed in Jesus but only the first two men were Apostles, that is, of the Twelve.
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prodromos
Guest
An odd question coming from a Catholic. The only Tradition. The Church teaches through her hymns that Joachom and Anna were childless until old age, where by the Grace of God they conceived and gave biryh to Mary. If they had given birth to any subsequent children in their old age it would have been as great a miracle as the birth of the Theotokos. The Church does not speak of any such later miracle because Joachim and Anna had no other children, only Mary.
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Huiou_Theou
Guest
I don’t think it would be quite as great a miracle as Jesus! Rather, it would be more like another miracle of the variety of Abraham and Sarah.
OTOH, I think it very very strange to claim a woman is Mary’s sibling. I have never even seen a apocryphal writing that would claim she had an actual sister. So, I agree.
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Huiou_Theou
Guest
If you believe that, then neither James the Great, nor James the Less, could be older than Peter because of the last supper seating arrangements.
As to the third James; He was not an apostle, therefore James the Just had to have been Consecrated as bishop of Jerusalem by an Apostle. eg: Peter and one of the other James’, and John. Therefore, James the Just can’t be “elder” in the order of consecration.
When I look around, I notice that in all the icons and ancient paintings that Barnabas is clearly depicted as being much younger than both Paul and Peter.
Yet Barnabas speaks after Peter too.
So, there is no evidence of consistent deference to age in the order of speaking at the council of Jerusalem.
Do you have a source of information on exactly why the “eldest” Presbyteros spoke last in Jewish custom? Perhaps a link?
What is clear, to me, is that James the Just was the sitting bishop of Jerusalem.
Peter and all the other Apostles were visitors to James’s church.
Therefore: I don’t see how you arrive at the conclusion that merely because James the Just (whom I assume you believe is the bishop of Jerusalem) spoke last that he is older than Jesus.
It seems to me there could be other reasons he might have spoken last, including the obvious fact that as bishop of Jerusalem, James the Just would have been in charge of providing the room and organizing the seating of the people for the meeting.
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JB_Brother_4446
Guest
Yeah the Mary had no siblings argument. Well maybe sister in that context could mean close relative or even Joachim and Anne may have adopted Salome.
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JB_Brother_4446
Guest
But Peter was not supreme because he was older than James the Just. He had authority given to him from Jesus.
I actually put him as the oldest person there which is why James the Just spoke last.
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Eliza10
Guest
I just want to say, for the benefit of others reading this thread, since you are bringing up your “3 James Theory” again, in this thread as well, that the great and venerable scholar St. Jerome would disagree with you!
St. Jerome says there are just the two James which you refer to here, NOT THREE. Those are Jesus’ two apostles, one is the brother of John, and one the brother of Jude- those latter two being the cousins of Jesus.
So we have the one who is often referred to as “James the Greater” - Google that and you will see that James the Greater
“was a son of Zebedee and Salome, and brother of John the Apostle. He is also called James the Greater or James the Great to distinguish him from James, son of Alphaeus and James the Just. James the Greater is the patron saint of Spain.”
– That’s at the top of the Google page because that’s what the vast majority of Christian scholars say.
Then we also have the other one, of whom the great Biblical scholar St. Jerome said was:
** James the Less,
James, son of Alphaeus and
James the Just
who are one and the same person**.
That’s TWO James, not three, and that’s how the vast majority of Christian scholars over the centuries see it.
In addition, as far as Mary of Clopas/Alphaeus being a sister of Our Lady, no, I am not with that idea. I accept, instead, along with tradition supported by early writings like Jewish convert St. Hegesippus [c. 110 – c. April 7, 180 AD], whose work I have confidence in because he was early and because he was a Saint and because his work was known to Saint Jerome, that Mary of Clopas and Mary of Alphaeus were one and the same and that she is the **mother of Jude and James **and also their other brothers Joseph/Joses and Simon who are also mentioned in scripture.
Also I accept that Mary’s husband Alphaeus was the brother of the St.Joseph. Not the sister of Our Lady. I accept the long-standing tradition that Mary was an “only”, who came late in life to Anne, who was childless before her.
Also this was the opinion of Papias of Hierapolis, and since he was a longtime companion of Polycarp - a disciple of THE St. John the Apostle (the “disciple whom Jesus loved”), this adds to the trustworthiness of this interpretation.
*editing to add: * It took me so long to finish this post (I had many interruptions) that I did not see that Prodomos and Huiou Theou had made many of the same points I just made here. So sorry, you two, I am reading your posts over now.
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Eliza10
Guest
Oh, dear, it sounds as if you are trying to start an argument. This is about opinions here. Perhaps I should not have said “more Catholic” but “more true” “more in line with Sacred Tradition and Holy Scripture”. We are not talking about Dogma here, so there is room for differing opinions, and we all have our opinion of what seems more true. (The Holy Catholic Faith being the Pillar and Foundation of Truth, I used it interchangeably, perhaps misleadingly).
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