Bruce Jenner's Début as "Caitlyn"

[ucfengr]

There has been a curious lack of response on the extensive, strong statements many of our Popes have made condemning transgender surgery. They have repeatedly directed Catholics on this subject.

Likely because the number of people that go through the surgery is trivial, and while the issue is big news in the US at present, I don’t know that is that big a news in the rest of the world. Even ostensibly worldly types are pretty parochial when you get right down to it.

 

[Dawnia]

Do you want me to send a picture?

As for reproduction, I did what many women who cannot conceive do and adopted. I can be a mother

Males cannot be mothers.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

From Catholic Answers Apologist Trent Horn, in light of the Vanity Fair cover story about Bruce Jenner’s decision to undergo a “gender transition” and current desire to be called Caitlyn Jenner:

Five Questions for Supporters of Gender Transitioning

The bottom line is this: we should not mock or dehumanize people who have gender identity disorder. Someone struggling with this disorder requires counseling, appropriate medical intervention, and an empathetic ear that is willing to listen. But we also shouldn’t celebrate the mutilation of healthy bodies or facilitate the destruction of masculinity and femininity.

We should treat identity disorders equally and not refuse to call something a disorder just because many people disagree with that assessment (truth isn’t determined by majority vote, after all). Instead, we must compassionately help the person who has an identity disorder, regardless of his or her age or stage of life, come to know his or her true self and flourish as the person he or she was created to be.

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[Dawnia]

I don’t treat bearing children with contempt, my issue is that women are always defined in relation to men, but men are not defined in relation to women. Also such line of thinking says that women who died virgins serving God are less than women because they renounced marriage and procreation. It is theologically unacceptable for you to claim that a woman is more a woman if she marries and has children than if she remains a virgin.

Saying that women have the potential of bringing life into this world is not defining women in relation to men. It is solely a biological attribute of women. Other attributes, such as smaller frames, less strength, higher fat content, etc have some cross over, but the potential to be pregnant (not actually being pregnant) is solely the domain of women. That has nothing to do with men.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Catholic Answers Live program discussing same issue

The Culture of Narcissism

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[Thorolfr]

As to why we all have sinful inclinations, blame Adam and Eve.

Why blame Adam? As we all know, it was Eve’s fault or the snake’s fault

Genesis 3:11: He [God] said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?” 12 The man said, “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit from the tree, and I ate.” 13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent tricked me, and I ate.”

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I’m glad to hear they are experiencing some relief. But we’re still not sure why, or why others didn’t. It’s quite a dice to roll, and while I don’t condemn them for making a decision under such duress, I can’t support it, either.

The largest study I saw showed zero out of more than two hundred seriously regretting surgery

There has been a curious lack of response on the extensive, strong statements many of our Popes have made condemning transgender surgery. They have repeatedly directed Catholics on this subject.

Because the problem is that Popes haven’t said such things.

That’s an assumption on you’re part, I’ve never said that women who don’t have children are less than women who did, though it would be easy for me to assume that you think women who did choose motherhood are lesser. In any case, there are objective biological differences between men and women that can’t be changed through cosmetic surgery. Pretending those objective differences are less relevant than subjective feelings is unserious.

If it comes across that I believe that celibacy for the kingdom of God is superior to marriage that is because I believe that as the Church says I must believe that if I do not want to be a heretic.

St. Paul, 1 Corinthians 7:

“It is a good thing for a man not to touch a woman. Indeed, I wish that everyone were like I am. I should like you to be free from anxieties. An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord; how he may please the Lord. But a married man is anxious about the things of the world; how he may please his wife, and he is divided. Are you free of a wife? Then do not look for a wife. If you marry, however, you do not sin, nor does an unmarried woman sin if she marries; but such people will experience affliction in their earthly life, and I would like to spare you that” (c.f., Mark 12:18-27; Matt. 19:10-12; 2 Timothy 2:3).

Pope John Paul II , Vita Consecrata, 32:

“As a way of showing forth the Church’s holiness, it is to be recognized that the consecrated life, which mirrors Christ’s own way of life, has an objective superiority. Precisely for this reason, it is an especially rich manifestation of gospel values and a more complete expression of the Church’s purpose, which is the sanctification of humanity. The consecrated life proclaims and in a certain way anticipates the future age, when the fullness of the Kingdom of Heaven, already present in its first fruits and in mystery, will be achieved and when the children of the resurrection will take neither wife nor husband, but will be like the angels of God (c.f., Matt. 22:30).”

Pope Pius XII, Sacra Virginitas, 32:

“This doctrine of the excellence of virginity and of celibacy and of their superiority over the married state was, as we have already said, revealed by our divine Redeemer and by the Apostle of the Gentiles; so too, it was solemnly defined as a dogma of divine faith by the holy Council of Trent, and explained in the same way by all the holy Fathers and doctors of the Church.”

Council of Trent:

“If anyone saith that the marriage state is to be preferred before the state of virginity, let him be anathema.” …] "writing to the Corinthians, [Paul] says: I would that all men were even as myself; that is, that all embrace the virtue of continence…A life of continence is to be desired by all.”

Catechism of the Catholic Church, 916

“The state of the consecrated life is thus one way of experiencing a “more intimate” consecration, rooted in Baptism and dedicated totally to God. In the consecrated life, Christ’s faithful, moved by the Holy Spirit, propose to follow Christ more nearly, to give themselves to God who is loved above all and, pursuing the perfection of charity in the service of the Kingdom, to signify and proclaim in the Church the glory of the world to come.”

patrickmadrid.blogspot.com/2010/05/which-is-superior-marriage-or.html

From Catholic Answers Apologist Trent Horn, in light of the Vanity Fair cover story about Bruce Jenner’s decision to undergo a “gender transition” and current desire to be called Caitlyn Jenner:

Five Questions for Supporters of Gender Transitioning

,

Not transitioning has the tendency to produce rather negative outcomes.

Saying that women have the potential of bringing life into this world is not defining women in relation to men. It is solely a biological attribute of women. Other attributes, such as smaller frames, less strength, higher fat content, etc have some cross over, but the potential to be pregnant (not actually being pregnant) is solely the domain of women. That has nothing to do with men.

Ignoring the one outlier what percentages of pregnancy involve men either directly or indirectly?

Plenty of women are not able to become pregnant

 

[Thomas_White]

Now IMO some sports could be markedly improved by having a mix of male and female players, where it’s reasonable that a mix of skills and attribute could be useful in team sports, or for some individual ones. As you mention the WPGA, golf is a sport where I can’t see any reason for men and women to compete equally (though I’m open to an argument to the contrary).

Women do not have the upper body strength to compete with men on the PGA tour where length off the tee and on many second shots is critical. Men have muscles in their upper bodies that women simply do not have, and as a result of this physiological difference women just cannot compete equally with men in golf. This is not Rocket Science, and it is true in many sports as well as in other areas, such as in military service. But the trend has nevertheless been to deny this reality.

Would it have been fair to let the tremendous athlete that was Bruce Jenner compete in women’s sports? Where is the young female QB who would have liked to have seen the twenty-year old Bruce Jenner heading full stream toward her?

 

[Dawnia]

Women do not have the upper body strength to compete with men on the PGA tour where length off the tee and on many second shots is critical. Men have muscles in their upper bodies that women simply do not have, and as a result of this physiological difference women just cannot compete equally with men in golf. This is not Rocket Science, and it is true in many sports as well as in other areas, such as in military service. But the trend has nevertheless been to deny this reality.

Actually, men and women have identically the same muscles. Men’s just tend to be more muscley.

 

[Pepband_Mom]

Seems like he wants the same publicity as the Kardashian females.

Other people going through this don’t have makeup artist, hair stylists, publicists around them.

As I just said in another thread, DNA DOESN’T LIE. It changes with cancer, over exposure to radiation, perhaps old age but your DNA doesn’t flip from one sex to another. God in his Wisdom created each of us specially & perfectly who He wanted us to be!

Sad that Bruce Jenner is in obvious emotional chaos & being wildly exploited by the media (though it pays handsomely I’m sure), step father of beautiful children in the world’s eye, recently divorced & has the Malibu car wreck litigation forthcoming. It’s quite a stew!

Timing of all this is interesting :juggle:

I would prefer not to see this shoved in my face; it is like a house a’fire & hard to avoid. I prefer to remember Mr. Jenner as the gifted, brilliant athlete I saw @ the Olympic Games in Montreal.

 

[Dawnia]

Ignoring the one outlier what percentages of pregnancy involve men either directly or indirectly?

Plenty of women are not able to become pregnant

Maybe if you weren’t fixated on the ability to become pregnant, you might have not missed my point.

 

[Pepband_Mom]

Actually, men and women have identically the same muscles. Men’s just tend to be more muscley.

has something to do with hormones…

 

[Dawnia]

has something to do with hormones…

And genetics.

 

[Pepband_Mom]

Males cannot be mothers.

Food for thought: a Jesuit once told me: Men give birth spiritually & Women give birth physically.

 

[Thomas_White]

And genetics.

Well, it actually has to do with muscle fibers, and there are physiological differences. On average, men have about 65% more upper-body muscle mass than women. And that is a lot.

 

[ucfengr]

If it comes across that I believe that celibacy for the kingdom of God is superior to marriage that is because I believe that as the Church says I must believe that if I do not want to be a heretic.

Unless you’re claiming that trans-women are celibate for the Kingdom of God and are therefore superior to women who have children, I’m not seeing the relevance.

 

[jaxster99]

Because the problem is that Popes haven’t said such things.

Seriously? Popes have said PLENTY on this topic. I’ve posted MANY quotes on this very thread from Pope Benedict and Pope Francis. Pope JP II used very strong statements about it. They have called it: “a new sin”, “against God the Creator”, “destruction of the very essence of the human creature”, “the Maker is denied”, “man too is stripped of his dignity”, “profound falsehood”, “demonic”, “against the moral law”. Google it yourself.

 

[ucfengr]

If it comes across that I believe that celibacy for the kingdom of God is superior to marriage that is because I believe that as the Church says I must believe that if I do not want to be a heretic.

Giving up motherhood to focus on a life of service to God is considered a sacrifice. That’s why it is morally significant. Giving up motherhood so you can take better vacations or focus on your career isn’t. a sacrifice, so it’s not morally significant. A trans-woman is no more capable of giving up motherhood than any other man, so it’s also not morally significant. The sacrifice is what gives it meaning. Also, SRS doesn’t typically include a vow of celibacy, so I’m having a problem seeing the relevance at all.

 

[Jeanne_S]

**

Actually, men and women have identically the same muscles. Men’s just tend to be more muscley.

I think the point was men by nature are physically stronger than women.A good example is Billie Jean King,in her thirties going up against Bobby Riggs a much older male opponent.He beat her handily.

 

[meltzerboy]

**

I think the point was men by nature are physically stronger than women.A good example is Billie Jean King,in her thirties going up against Bobby Riggs a much older male opponent.He beat her handily.

Billie Jean King won that match, not Bobby Riggs. However, he was 55 at the time.