Brushed off by my Bishop

[duskyjewel]

I was wandering if we can have masses in Spanish, why not Latin. If you can get both of them going nobody will ever understand what’s being said. I like the language of our country which is English…

What you like doesn’t matter. The fact is that Vatican II stated that Catholics have the right to hear Mass in the VERNACULAR. That means the language they commonly speak.

There are plenty of people in the United States who are here legally and are learning or know English, but are more comfortable with their native language. They have as much right to hear Mass in Spanish, Vietnamese, Korean, Tagalog, Polish, German, or whatever as you have to hear Mass in English. I am a strong proponent of protecting our borders and am strongly against illegal immigration, BUT statements like yours just come off as racist!

As for the MP, I am sure our prevous bishop would have reacted the same way. He had put very strict limits on the Latin Mass. Many believed he went beyond his authority on that score even long ago under the old rules. Thankfully, our current bishop has received the MP with open arms, and even our far-flung parish is going to start having Latin Mass once a month. There is an order of priests whose charism is the preservation of the Latin Mass, and they are going to rove around the diocese providing this service. Can’t remember their name right now…will look it up.

 

[otjm]

The one thing I just can’t understand is how they feel they can just overlook the clause in the MP that says the Bishop must provide a mass for a Latin mass community. How do they justify themselves?

Also, I’m not sure about how to go about finding traditional books and vestments at a reasonable price by myself.

The ink isn’t even completely dry on the document and we are already asking the bishops to justify themselves for not having one here, there and everywhere.

Even the pope, in his letter acknowledged that the issue would be difficult because there were few priests who knew both the rubrics and Latin.

And not to make too fine a point of it, but your second paragraph above has a minor part to play in the issue…

Further, having read the MP through several times, I am not sure why anyone would go to the bishop before exhausting all possible avenues at the parish level. Someone in one parish gets their desires up and goes to the priest (who, for the moment, odds-on is unqualified) and says they have some friends and they all would like to have the EF. The priest, being unqualified at the moment (and just possibly overworked and having no spare time) is not able to immediately satisfy their need; so without asking at several nearby parishes they immediately go to the bishop (who may not have even read the MP) demanding that their needs be satisfied, and the bishop having no idea yet as to how this is to be implemented - where is he going to get these qualifed priests - stalls and gives a dour answer. Meanwhile, the priest is trying to meet the needs of the parish, the vast majority of who do not seem to have an issue about having the EF, and the bishop is still dealing with the aftermath of sexual abuse by priests caused on a prior bishop’s watch, and a multitude of other issues.

But the MP came out and the bishop better get cracking and find answers that may not exist because someone asked him.

Makes perfect sense to me…

Not.

 

[Pious_Mat]

Somehow, otjm always seems to make sense…

Some time has elapsed since my original post, and I have exhausted nearly all of my resources. None of our priests seem very interested, and even retired priests think that the Tridentine Mass is in the past and should stay that way. I told them that although I respected their decisions as those older and wiser than me, I disagreed, and if they anyone else showed interest in the old mass in our Diocese, they could could give that person my name and phone number.

I think that the only way to have a Tridentine Mass in my Diocese, or, for that matter, in my Province (I live in Eastern Canada, which is known for its liberal Bishops), would be to invite a priest from another Diocese to come and visit. This would be difficult, I know, but I ought to at least try to break the ice by having one Tridentine Mass said here.

What I’m wondering is, how do I promote the Tridentine Mass in my Diocese? Do I hand out pamphlets (with the permission of my priest, of course), or is that too agressive? My priest has already told me that he doesn’t want me putting an add in our parish bulletin about this, as it is filled with funeral announces, important dates, etc., so how am I to promote awareness? Note that this is all I aim to do–promote awareness. I don’t want to tell people how to think, or mislead them into thinking that the OF is an inferior form of the mass.

 

[the_phoenix]

Dear Pious Mat,

Have you tried this link?

lumengentleman.com/findcontacts.asp?ctry=CAN

Prayers that you will soon be able to attend the Tridentine Mass in your diocese,

~~ the phoenix

 

[30miller]

What I’m wondering is, how do I promote the Tridentine Mass in my Diocese? Do I hand out pamphlets (with the permission of my priest, of course), or is that too agressive? My priest has already told me that he doesn’t want me putting an add in our parish bulletin about this, as it is filled with funeral announces, important dates, etc., so how am I to promote awareness? Note that this is all I aim to do–promote awareness. I don’t want to tell people how to think, or mislead them into thinking that the OF is an inferior form of the mass.

Pious Mat,
You might try contacting the folks at www.keepthefaith.org who publish The Latin Mass magazine and have fought the good fight supporting the Mass of the Ages for years and years. Maybe arrange for one of their speakers to visit your parish or something like that. As they have been put through the wringer on this issue my first thought is that someone there might have some good ideas for you. Articles in the magazine are truly and almost beyond belief excellent. One of those writers might make an excellent speaker on a topic like, for example, women martyred by the English Protestants - an article in the latest issue. (And there are MANY more). I’m certain any one of them would stand and deliver on behalf of the TLM. Good Luck.

 

[kleary]

After the MP was issued, I wrote by Bishop to ask for a Tridentine Mass in our Diocese. I didn’t ask his approval, since that is not needed, but rather that he aid me in my quest to find a priest in my Diocese who can say one.

His answer was very negative. He replied that he believed that language didn’t matter, and that it is imperative that people are able to understand the mass. He also reminded me that the Novus Ordo is the regular form of the mass, and that the college of Bishops would meet to “discuss” the meaning of the MP, and further clarify it.

So, no tridentine mass for me, other than the one eight hours away in another Diocese!

I’m just foaming at the mouth with anger right now–I wonder if he even read the Motu Proprio?

If you yourself read the MP you can see that the Bishop does not need to be consulted anymore for this. All you have to do is find a priest who has faculties to say Mass in your Diocese.

Ken

 

[otjm]

I think that the only way to have a Tridentine Mass in my Diocese, or, for that matter, in my Province (I live in Eastern Canada, which is known for its liberal Bishops), would be to invite a priest from another Diocese to come and visit.

You might want to look into whether or not a priest can come into the dicocese and say a public Mass without the permission of the bishop - I don’t know the answer, but to hear confessions, I believe he either has to have the permission, or must be incardinated (technically brought into the diocese). Further, he has to have somewhere to say the Mass; if the local pastor is not interested, you might have a hard time getting permission for the visitor to say Mass.

As to having a priest come in and say a private Mass, it may be there would be no problem per Canon law, but you might want to think about what impression you would be giving. At that point, it might be presumed by some - including those in authority - that you were trying to “fly under the radar” - at which point you become somewhere between suspect and highly suspect.

What I’m wondering is, how do I promote the Tridentine Mass in my Diocese? Do I hand out pamphlets (with the permission of my priest, of course), or is that too agressive? My priest has already told me that he doesn’t want me putting an add in our parish bulletin about this, as it is filled with funeral announces, important dates, etc., so how am I to promote awareness? Note that this is all I aim to do–promote awareness. I don’t want to tell people how to think, or mislead them into thinking that the OF is an inferior form of the mass.

If he doesn’t want an ad in the bulletin, you are probably going to have a bit of a longer haul; I suspect he will not be in favor of you handing anything out either.

The first issue is establishing a stable group, since it appears you do not have a priest who would choose to say the EF privately. And as to that, I have no information as to what the size of it will need to be; neither does anyone else; at this point it is all speculation. Talking with people is probably the best route; and in talking with people, they should probably say two to three sentances for every one you say. In other words, you need to listen, not preach. There is a tendency, when one is enthused about something, to inundate others with it, rather that to listen and actually hear and understand what they say about it.

The more who gather to request it, the more likely it will get to the size that it will be able to accomplish something.

 

[GerardP]

Sure except we’re not talking about orthodoxy we’re talking about the bishop’s responce to one person’s request for a mass of personal preference. You can consider the responce to be fair or unfair but don’t question the orthodoxy of the Lord’s annoited over such as this.

Go back and READ the context of what was written.

A previous poster said that we can’t demand anything from a bishop.

I cited “orthodoxy” as an example of what we can and should demand of our bishops.

And questioning someone’s orthodoxy is not a crime. Orthodoxy simply means “right doctrine.” It’s not judging the state of someone’s soul. We’ve had Popes that have held heterodox opinions.

 

[GerardP]

Quote:
With regards to the motu proprio, the bishop doesn’t need to wait for promptings from the Holy Ghost. He needs to obey the Pope on this matter and not get in the way.

It’s not anybody’s “call” it’s a fact.

Also not your place to judge the motivations of one given their authority by Christ.

Judging is not the same as questioning. And they have their authority only by the permissive will of Christ. There are plenty of people given authority who abuse it.

It is very correct for a bishop to seek divine guidance in how to advise his priests on the implementation of the MP.

The motu proprio has little if anything to do with the bishops. It’s for the pastors and priests.

This document was kept vague on details for a reason. Every diocese has different needs and capabilities.

Doing nothing and creating roadblocks addresses no need or capability.

While a priest can independantly perform his private masses there are many things he may very well need the assistance or permission of his bishop for regarding his public and Lord’s Day masses. The Pope understands this.

The Pope understands that the Church is collapsing due to the liturgical ruins brought on by allowing the bishops too much leeway.

The Pope directed the bishops to give assistance, not stand in the way of them. He even provided for the Ecclesia Dei commission to be a recourse if the bishop can’t help. A bishop prattling on about his preferences for English has nothing to do with the feeding of his flock.

 

[GerardP]

The fact is that Vatican II stated that Catholics have the right to hear Mass in the VERNACULAR.

No. Vatican II did not state that. It stated that Latin was to be preserved and the people were to be taught responses in Latin. But their were several part of the mass that it might be beneficial for a bishop to allow them to be in the vernacular.

Cardinal Ottaviani at Vatican II that expressed his worry was that we would eventually have “all vernacular” masses and their was a fit of laughter throughout the council hall when he said this.

 

[latinmasslover]

So his “interpretation”/translation is more trustworthy than that of your Bishop? Or someone else’s Bishop, whom you just called a Judas? Certainly we all sin and fall short, but you seem to have fallen just as far as any Bishop you accuse to be name-calling and distrusting like this.

Sure, and Judas betraying the Master wasn’t wrong, since he was a bishop, and if it was, we shouldn’t say anything, just pass him off as a “St. John,” yes? What a joke. Naiveté is why people don’t remain in the Church. Denying the truth is a sin, and if a bishop doesn’t correct his liberal, unCatholic standpoints, it needs to be made known so people don’t blindly turn to him for guidance. Jesus warned of wolves (I hate this comparison) in sheep’s clothing. Talk about picking and choosing what to believe! St. Paul, **a **bishop, rebuked St. Peter, **the **bishop, ***publicly **and to his face *for his scandal. Somebody has to make a stand for God and the Church He established, and if some in the upper hierarchy won’t do it…The point is, it needs to be done, even if by a subordinate (as Holy Scripture shows).

 

[30miller]

Sure, and Judas betraying the Master wasn’t wrong, since he was a bishop, and if it was, we shouldn’t say anything, just pass him off as a “St. John,” yes? What a joke. Naiveté is why people don’t remain in the Church. Denying the truth is a sin, and if a bishop doesn’t correct his liberal, unCatholic standpoints, it needs to be made known so people don’t blindly turn to him for guidance. Jesus warned of wolves (I hate this comparison) in sheep’s clothing. Talk about picking and choosing what to believe! St. Paul, **a **bishop, rebuked St. Peter, **the **bishop, ***publicly ***and to his face for his scandal. Somebody has to make a stand for God and the Church He established, and if some in the upper hierarchy won’t do it…The point is, it needs to be done, even if by a subordinate (as Holy Scripture shows).

I’ll second that!

 

[Brendan]

What you like doesn’t matter. The fact is that Vatican II stated that Catholics have the right to hear Mass in the VERNACULAR. That means the language they commonly speak.

Could you please post EXACTLY where Vatican II said this?

Sacrosanctum Concillium said that PARTS of the Mass MAY be said in the vernacular, and a greater use of the Mass COULD be said in the vernacular IF (and only IF) the Bishops of a country requested it AND the Pope approved it.

1. In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and “the common prayer,” but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to tho norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.

Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.

And wherever a more extended use of the mother tongue within the Mass appears desirable, the regulation laid down in Art. 40 of this Constitution is to be observed.

( SC #54)

All of that hardly constitutes a ‘Right’ to hear the Mass in the vernacular.

Again, I would like to hear exactly where you feel V-II gave this ‘Right’ you mentioned.

 

[Sr_Sally]

All this is so very charitable. Your tone is endering me to you. I know, you will say that all this is so much 'happy-clappy" clapt-trap.

And since you know so much about this unnamed Bishop and you know of course what the first Bishops–chosen by Christ–did, you exe

No bishop has been named. It could very well be that his bishop is an enemy of Christ. No bishop is an infallible “interpretor” of Latin.

Cardinal Ottaviani once remarked that the first act of collegiality between the Pope and the bishops in union with him was to run from the Garden of Gethsemane and hide from the Passion.

There’s a certain Cardinal around today who is known for committing flat out lies with regards to Catholic history, papal statements and completely making a mockery of Vatican II documents and other official statements to support his heretical theology.

A good priest in the “trenches” is often more trustworthy than a modernist liberal bishop.

 

[GerardP]

Sure, and Judas betraying the Master wasn’t wrong, since he was a bishop, and if it was, we shouldn’t say anything, just pass him off as a “St. John,” yes? What a joke. Naiveté is why people don’t remain in the Church. Denying the truth is a sin, and if a bishop doesn’t correct his liberal, unCatholic standpoints, it needs to be made known so people don’t blindly turn to him for guidance. Jesus warned of wolves (I hate this comparison) in sheep’s clothing. Talk about picking and choosing what to believe! St. Paul, **a **bishop, rebuked St. Peter, **the **bishop, ***publicly ***and to his face for his scandal. Somebody has to make a stand for God and the Church He established, and if some in the upper hierarchy won’t do it…The point is, it needs to be done, even if by a subordinate (as Holy Scripture shows).

Good points. And it just reminded of another situation where another being high up in a hierarchy created by God had to be challenged and rebuked by a lower member.

St. Micheal and Lucifer.

It must have been a beautiful act of humility for all of the angels who ranked higher than Micheal, The Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones, Dominations, Virtues, Powers and Principalities who opted to follow him in his devotion to God rather than be seduced by an angel who was arguably by all common understanding far more beautiful, intelligent and powerful than all of them.

 

[WanderAimlessly]

I’m so sorry to hear that. Pray for judas, I mean, your bishop. He obviously isn’t a very informed Catholic if he makes an issue of the language…that is a small issue in regards to the TLM. A priest from our diocese (a couple of hours away) read the MP in the original Latin and told us what it said, because he knew the college of Bishops would “interpret” it for us, meaning we wouldn’t get the whole truth of the matter. As to the novus ordo being the “ordinary” form, that won’t be for long.

It is statements like this that only reinforces my opinion that some traditionalists want to ram the EF down peoples throats whether they want it or not. I have dealt with this for years on another board and is the reason I will not go to an EF.

 

[otjm]

It is statements like this that only reinforces my opinion that some traditionalists want to ram the EF down peoples throats whether they want it or not. I have dealt with this for years on another board and is the reason I will not go to an EF.

The Mass is the Mass, no matter what format or rite is used to celebrate it. Do not let the attitudes of someone in the pew determine which form you attend; there are sinners present at both. And ultimately, the judgementalism or triumphalism of any given individual, whether they are a liberal who wants more change to the OF or a conservative who wants no change to the EF should make no difference in your worship of God and your walk with Christ.

It would be one thing if they were strangers; but St. Paul tells us we are members of the Body of Christ, which makes us all family. And keep in mind some of the nastiest spats and greatest tempests in a tea pot are among family members.

 

[WanderAimlessly]

The Mass is the Mass, no matter what format or rite is used to celebrate it. Do not let the attitudes of someone in the pew determine which form you attend; there are sinners present at both. And ultimately, the judgementalism or triumphalism of any given individual, whether they are a liberal who wants more change to the OF or a conservative who wants no change to the EF should make no difference in your worship of God and your walk with Christ.

It would be one thing if they were strangers; but St. Paul tells us we are members of the Body of Christ, which makes us all family. And keep in mind some of the nastiest spats and greatest tempests in a tea pot are among family members.

Sorry, but I do not see it that way. These people constantly complained before and, now that they have the Moto Proprio, they are becoming like bullies forcing the EF where it is not wanted just to satify their agenda.

 

[scylla]

Wow they sound pretty bad…

What is this agenda that they want to force upon us? I see a faithfulness to what Vatican II has stated being promoted, is that bad? How are they forcing people to attend the EF?

Scylla

 

[otjm]

Sorry, but I do not see it that way. These people constantly complained before and, now that they have the Moto Proprio, they are becoming like bullies forcing the EF where it is not wanted just to satify their agenda.

Well, then, as my Sociology professor in the seminary (a good Benedictine monk) used to say: “Illegitimi non carborundum!”