Brushed off by my Bishop

  • Thread starter Thread starter Pious_Mat
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
… those who seem to insist impliedly that with 3 or 4 requesting the EF, they can re-arrange the Sunday Mass schedule…
otjm - I’m certain this is going to be too much to ask of an oracle such as yourself - but how about giving us an example by citing some posts on this thread (by # should be simple enough) that you put in your made-up categorization - “those who seem to insist impliedly”. Thanks.
 
wanderaimlessly,
You must have been divinely inspired the day you chose your screen name.
Actually, it is an old joke from my days chatting on Prodigy. I would be in a chat and would wander off surfing the web while still in chat. They would accuse me of Wandering Aimlessly. I decided to take it as my on-line name.
 
Wow they sound pretty bad…

What is this agenda that they want to force upon us? I see a faithfulness to what Vatican II has stated being promoted, is that bad? How are they forcing people to attend the EF?

Scylla
My response was in a line of responses that started with a response to the following:
As to the novus ordo being the “ordinary” form, that won’t be for long.
As for me, I regularly attend a OF Mass that has many parts in Latin and said Ad Orientem. I would like to see more of it in Latin too.
 
As to the novus ordo being the “ordinary” form, that won’t be for long.
No, more than likely, we’ll move to some hybrid, or even, as Pope Benedict said while a cardinal, the EF offered in the verncular.

Send for the smelling salts! :hypno:
 
See, here’s the problem with this, Gerard. For whatever reason the Holy See “expelled” (your word) Buggsy to Iran, the Holy See has said it wasn’t for freemasonry. The Holy See, in the early 70’s, explicitly said that the Arch. and others were NOT freemasons. So has the Holy See lied to us? Who should we believe?
The Holy See has lied numerous times. What makes you think men in power don’t lie? Why do you think we’ve only had one Pope canonized in 500 years? One of the more obvious lies was the long standing denial that JPII had Parkinson’s disease. They were denying that long after it was plainly obvious.

Bugnini in his own book, “The Reform of the Roman Liturgy” states that Paul VI was convinced that he (Bugnini) was a Freemason. Bugnini denied but Bugnini admits that that was the reason for his relocation to Iran and the denial of the Red hat.
 
Originally Posted by GerardP
It’s not about what “appeals” to a person. It’s what is happening. The law of prayer is the law of belief. A Big Mac may appeal to one person more than another person but if you feed a person their veggies when they don’t want them, they will be healthier than if you let them have their Big Mac.
I believe that is a more politically motivated enthusiasm than an actual satisfaction with the Novus Ordo.

Re: Bugnini
The only people who harp about him are those who hold the Mass in disdain.
Not the Mass. What he did to the liturgy with the assistance of the Consilium and the Protestant aids. Most Catholics are ignorant of him or his role anyway. I’ve asked around to friends and many have heard no announcements or statements that there even was a motu proprio issued about the TLM.
He was only one individual in the group and the only ones who ascribe him power and control are those who are anti-OF.
Dietrich Von Hildebrand said that one of C.S. Lewis’ devils from The Screwtape Letters could not have done a better job ruining the liturgy when discussing Bugnini. (See the Devastated Vineyard for the quote)
Read what the Pope has said about the OF.
I have.
And I have yet to see any valid documentation that he was a freemason.
Do you have valid documentation that any Catholic prelate was ever a freemason? How would you know what valid documentation is?
Let’s try this again: “This will bring out the spiritual richness and theological depth of this Missal.” Pope Benedict 16, in his letter accompanying the MP.
Can you tell me what the spiritual depth is? It’s all relativistic. The Novus Ordo done as well as possible is better than a Novus Ordo clown mass. But the best Novus Ordo can’t hold a candle to the TLM because of the impoverished texts and reduced symbolism. The Pope doesn’t say that the “spiritual richness and theological depth” of the Novus Ordo is in any way comparable to the TLM in richness and depth. Cain’s offering to God was better than nothing as well. But it wasn’t enough for God while Abel’s sacrifice was.
 
Somehow, otjm always seems to make sense…

Some time has elapsed since my original post, and I have exhausted nearly all of my resources. None of our priests seem very interested, and even retired priests think that the Tridentine Mass is in the past and should stay that way. I told them that although I respected their decisions as those older and wiser than me, I disagreed, and if they anyone else showed interest in the old mass in our Diocese, they could could give that person my name and phone number.

I think that the only way to have a Tridentine Mass in my Diocese, or, for that matter, in my Province (I live in Eastern Canada, which is known for its liberal Bishops), would be to invite a priest from another Diocese to come and visit. This would be difficult, I know, but I ought to at least try to break the ice by having one Tridentine Mass said here.

What I’m wondering is, how do I promote the Tridentine Mass in my Diocese? Do I hand out pamphlets (with the permission of my priest, of course), or is that too agressive? My priest has already told me that he doesn’t want me putting an add in our parish bulletin about this, as it is filled with funeral announces, important dates, etc., so how am I to promote awareness? Note that this is all I aim to do–promote awareness. I don’t want to tell people how to think, or mislead them into thinking that the OF is an inferior form of the mass.
Do you get The Catholic Telegraph up there? Perhaps you could do something there like place an ad.
If the Authorities don’t want you adverizing in the bulletin or handing things out, maybe you need to stand off church property with a sign. After all the faithful do this a family planning centers. 🤷

Also just start talking to folks about it.
Bring it up as something interesting.
By a video for curious folks to watch.
(Try to get one that has a low mass as well as a high mass. The high mass may turn them off with all the singing and you want them to know that not all the maases are sung.)
Once you discover others interested, maybe take a trip to where there is one to expose them to the richness of it.

Keep at it and God Bless

James
 
GerardP;2782610The Pope is not automatically the smartest man in the Church. In any case said:
You are welcome to disagree with him. I am inclined to pay attention to what he says.
All Masses which are licit are essentially the same, and the operative term is “essentially”. You ignore all of the rites of the East as if they were not even in existence.
The Eastern Rites are not the impoverished rite of Annibale Bugnini drawn up by a committee. They are apostolic in origin and comparable to the TLM.
By your logic, the only one that would really fit your description would be a Solemn High Mass. The differences between a Solemn High Mass and a Low Mass are remarkable; but they are both the Mass. So also is the OF. You are simply dismissive of it.
By your logic all we need is a priest to stand at the drive thru and consecrate the hosts and pass them through. We can have **The Lord’s McSupper. **

The Low Mass doesn’t contain the impoverished texts and omitted prayers and loss of sacrificial emphasis that the Novus Ordo does. The problem isn’t that it’s a different rite (despite the fact that the Pope wants it to call it the same rite) the problem is that it is intrinsically impoverished. Much of the specificCatholicity is removed in order to appeal to Protestants.

Not to mention the utterly pointless reduction of the Kyrie from 9 invocations symbolizing the trinitarian qualities and matching it with the 9 choirs of angels down to six. Six invocations means nothing.
 
GerardP;2782610The TLM is simply not as prone to it. The Novus Ordo grants great latitude and “creativity” in selecting the options available. That’s how it loses stability. A second point is that the prayers are so different said:
Hogwash! The abuses were occuring prior to Vatican 2 also. Don’t even go down that path!

Let’s do go down that path. I believe the abusers before Vatican II hated the liturgy because of its catholicity. They were the modernists who welcomed the Novus Ordo and wanted to continue the abuse and do what they wanted. The Novus Ordo provided many more opportunities to abuse the liturgy and the “spirit of Vatican II” provided the cover.

With regard to the sexual abuse, The proper distance that a priest should have was abandoned with the cassock and the “chumminess” that we’ve all become familiar with lead to lots of cover ups and denials.

“Goodbye Good Men” by Micheal Rose and Randi Engels “The Rite of Sodomy” both are recent publications that show the attack on the priesthood and the infiltration by organized homosexuals.
And as to stability, that is bordering on ridiculous. The options are minor and have no more impact than does a different set of readings for each day of the Mass.
That is plainly untrue. Read Fr. Fessio’s (of the reform of the reform crowd) articles on the options of the rite and you’ll understand how wide ranging the options make things. He can do a Novus Ordo that “looks” similar to the TLM and you can go all the way to the other extreme of a quickie “Lord’s Supper” type of Protestantised service and because of the Liturgical Time Bombs in Sacrosanctum Concilium, it’s all legit.
 
otjm;2782835]
The only people who harp about him are those who hold the Mass in disdain. He was only one individual in the group and the only ones who ascribe him power and control are those who are anti-OF. Read what the Pope has said about the OF. And I have yet to see any valid documentation that he was a freemason.
Father Bugnini was a major player in the creation of the Novus Ordo. Are you aware that he also was responsible for writing the Constitution On the Liturgy? In his book Reform of the Liturgy he says that .”…On January 22,1962 the official copy was on the table…containing 127 articles” and the Constitution that passed at Vatican II was the same that he helped to write, “no substantial changes were made in the text that emerged from the preparatory commission.”

Not only did Bugnini and a committee of theologians write the Constitution, they formed a Consilium where they interpreted to their liking] the very Constitution they wrote. Talk about foxes guarding the hen house!
 
I have no problem whatsoever with you preferring the EF to the OF. But quit trying to justify it to everyone else.
Basically you do have a problem with “why” I have a preference. You’ll allow me to prefer something as long as I don’t say why.

Preferring is to put one thing above another in its value. You have a problem it seems with the reasons for this value being objective and not subjective.
You may not “hear” what you are saying, but you can border on an attitude that is not going to attract anyone but those who are already seriously dissatisfied with the OF.
How judgmental you come off. It must be tough sitting that high up and making all of those predictions about how the rabble will react.
Most people are not.
Wrong. Most people are dissatisfied which is why Mass attendance is so low according to leading Catholic indicators. Most Catholics unfortunately think that the Novus Ordo is as good as it gets. So, they leave, go into apostasy or start to tinker with it in order to “make it relevant.”
And if you don’t get that message, you are going to succeed in driving people away from the EF who might otherwise be open to it.
I was perfectly content with the Novus Ordo till people started to tell me what was deficient in it. ( and I live in one of the most conservative archdiocese in the U.S.A. ) For all you or I know someone may read this who is ready to throw the towel in on the whole Church, not realizing until now that there is a battle going on and perhaps those driving them out of the Church are the enemies of the Church.

A starving man will be happy with whatever crumbs are thrown his way, but let him choose between the banquet and the fast food counter and suddenly all things are not equal.
I have read what then Cardinal Ratzinger has said about the Mass, and I have not limited it to simply picking out those things he has said critically of it.
How do you reconcile the contradictions then? Is it a good “banal on the spot product of a committee,” A wonderful “fabrication” with rich theological depths?
 
About 1/3 of my life was spent with the EF; it was my formative Mass. You talk to me as if I was ignorant, and I am not; and I have to wonder how you come across to others who have little or no experience of the EF, but love the OF.
You are probably one of those referred to by Charles Coulombe as “the people that learned their faith and bring it to the Novus Ordo. They fill in the blanks and don’t see the problem. The problem is, the younger crowd doesn’t know the faith and they learn a different religion from the same liturgy.” (paraphrase from “the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass”)

The Novus Ordo was MY formative liturgy. I’ve watched it deteriorate over a 35 year period. Go to a liberal university’s chapel service on Saturday and then go an SSPX or FSSP chapel on Sunday and see the difference. Discovering the TLM and its richness showed me how I’d been robbed most of my life.
It might shock you, but there are good and holy people, people who love God and seek to follow Christ, who are happy with the OF and seem to be growing spiritually.
Recovering might be a better word than growing. They are living and growing off of the scraps that have been restored or that weren’t tossed out by the post conciliar mess. It’s a starvation diet. I go to one of my local churches and there is adoration. The original gigantic high altar is still there, but it was separated from the tabernacle and was moved forward in the 1970’s. There is now a salt shaker sized monstrance on it. The priest snaps the host in and out of it with no ceremony whatsoever. You can’t even tell if Our Lord is present from the back of the Church. Another local Church with all the modern architecture has a little old lady take care of it. She doesn’t even twitch a knee most of the time even though she is moving God around. I’m sure she is happy with the Novus Ordo and isn’t even aware of the erosion of respect. I feel sorry for her because she is being cheated.

The local SSPX chapel has a traditional Benediction. The chapel is humble but the monstrance is not. The local parish with all of its resources and respectibility doesn’t even know how small it behaves towards Our Lord because it’s so much better than when they were doing nothing during the 80’s and 90’s.
It seems to be your premise that they are barely able to do so with the OF. I beg to differ with you.
I suspect if a poll were taken in all the diocese of the English speaking world if they agreed with the opening of the Athanasian Creed:

“Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith; Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.”

I regularly watch the poor in resources give enormously to God and I watch the rich in resources give little in terms of respect to Our Lord. A slight bow isn’t sufficient for God Himself physically present to us when we are perfectly able to bend the knee in submission.

Fr. Fullerton of the SSPX gave a sermon a few years ago that I remember, “Are you looking over your life and walking in the direction towards God? If you are walking in that direction, should you be running?”
 
(TO GERARDP)…I have no problem whatsoever with you preferring the EF to the OF. But quit trying to justify it to everyone else…
To GerardP:
I’m not sure just how someone like the above poster conjures up in their own mind the idea that they can make a statement like the above commanding that you are to cease and desist your posts in strong support of the EF. Just be assured there are many out there who not only support your position - but who are very appreciative of the effort you have put in laying it out. Thank you.
 
To GerardP:
I’m not sure just how someone like the above poster conjures up in their own mind the idea that they can make a statement like the above commanding that you are to cease and desist your posts in strong support of the EF. Just be assured there are many out there who not only support your position - but who are very appreciative of the effort you have put in laying it out. Thank you.
I’ll second that. You have made your point extremely well. I pray that the moderators will continue to let you express your heartfelt belief.
 
To GerardP:
I’m not sure just how someone like the above poster conjures up in their own mind the idea that they can make a statement like the above commanding that you are to cease and desist your posts in strong support of the EF. Just be assured there are many out there who not only support your position - but who are very appreciative of the effort you have put in laying it out. Thank you.
Amen! You have been a great inspiration and you points are wonderful. BTW, do you have a single son, say, 25ish?🙂
 
The Holy See has lied numerous times. What makes you think men in power don’t lie? Why do you think we’ve only had one Pope canonized in 500 years? One of the more obvious lies was the long standing denial that JPII had Parkinson’s disease. They were denying that long after it was plainly obvious.

Bugnini in his own book, “The Reform of the Roman Liturgy” states that Paul VI was convinced that he (Bugnini) was a Freemason. Bugnini denied but Bugnini admits that that was the reason for his relocation to Iran and the denial of the Red hat.
But again, the Holy See denied that the Archbishop and others were masons. So how does the flock arrive at the truth if the shepherd is supposed to be lying? What if it’s NOT true? What if the Holy See is not lying? In the balance, who should we believe? Has anyone claimed that they saw the Archbishop engaged in masonic ceremonies, saw him take an oath or make a pledge or a funny handshake? Who were they and why, in the balance, should we believe them over the Holy See? In the absence of definitive proof, how do we know that all of this isn’t the sin of calumny?
 
But again, the Holy See denied that the Archbishop and others were masons. So how does the flock arrive at the truth if the shepherd is supposed to be lying? What if it’s NOT true? What if the Holy See is not lying? In the balance, who should we believe? Has anyone claimed that they saw the Archbishop engaged in masonic ceremonies, saw him take an oath or make a pledge or a funny handshake? Who were they and why, in the balance, should we believe them over the Holy See? In the absence of definitive proof, how do we know that all of this isn’t the sin of calumny?
If there was evidence it was kept by Pope Paul. One thing is certain,he was dismissed from his position twice for reasons not disclosed.In his book *Reform of the Liturgy *Bugnini admits that he was dismissed from his position twice, once by Pope John and once by Pope Paul. Here he explains what happened. Throughout his book he often speaks in the third person.

Footnote pg 30 “ at the same time that Father Bugnini was dismissed from the secretariat of the conciliar commission , he was also discharged from his post as teacher of liturgy…of the Lateran university…the basis for the dismissals was the charge of being a “progressivist,” “pushy,” and an “iconoclast.”…no proof was offered, no clear justification”-October 20,1962

Pg –91-92 In July of 1975 Bugnini was relieved of his post as the head of the Congregation of Divine Worship, which he had held for over six years, and was sent as pro-nuncio to Iran. Here he comments on his dismissal. “Toward the end of the summer a cardinal who was usually no enthusiast for liturgical reform told me of the existence of a “dossier” which he had seen on [or brought to?] the Pope’s desk and which proved that Archbishop Bugnini was a Freemason…the charge was absurd, a malignant calumny…I have never had any interest in Freemasonry: I do not know what it is, what it does, or what its purposes are.”

What happened to the dossier? He admits that there was one.

One thing is clear. He was obsessed with “active participation” as you can see here where he thought this idea was ingenious.

Pg 209 Footnote 11. “The use of things mechanical also make headlines at the beginning of the liturgical reform…the “offertory machine” at Ferrara. This was a machine that allowed the faithful to make a host drop untouched into baskets, which were then taken to the altar at the time of the offertory. It was a clever way of letting the people express their participation and of consecration as many hosts as would be needed at the celebration, while at the same time safeguarding hygiene. But some journalists discovered the ingenious device and spread word of it; in the process, however, they misrepresented its function and spoke of it as though it were a machine for the automatic distribution of communion. Here again the Consilium had to intervene; it dealt with the matter in general terms in a short piece entitled “Mechanique et liturgie.”

There is no doubt that he ran the Consilium. He often butted heads with Pope Paul. For instance Pope Paul wanted to start the New Mass with the sign of the cross. Bugnini was completely against it. Pope Paul insisted and eventually won out.

pg 371 Bugnini stated that beginning the Mass with the sign of the cross, “ would be an innovation contrary to the entire liturgical tradition."

It is clear that from the beginning Bugnini wanted to put an end to the Latin Mass.

Pg114 “But how difficult it is to take an ancient building in hand and make it functional and habitable without changing the structure. Peripheral alterations are not enough; there had to be a radical restoration”
 
None of that matters in regard to the NO. It is a lawfully promulgated Mass of the Church. And there is still no evidence that the Archbishop was a mason. He denied it and the Holy See denied it. So that’s what we have to go on.
 
None of that matters in regard to the NO. It is a lawfully promulgated Mass of the Church. And there is still no evidence that the Archbishop was a mason. He denied it and the Holy See denied it. So that’s what we have to go on.
Just curious JKirk, why didn’t Pope Paul go by the Mass envisioned by the Council Fathers, that is the one described by the Constitution? Why did he go by the will of the Consilium that was to “implement” the Constitution not interpret?

Sacram LiturgiamPope Paul VI
Encyclical promulgated on 25 January 1964
…For these reasons it is apparent to all that it is our uppermost concern that all Christians, and especially all priests, should consecrate themselves first of all to the study of the already-mentioned Constitution and from now on, resolve to implement its individual prescriptions in good faith as soon as they enter into force…. Meanwhile, it seems evident that many prescriptions of the Constitution cannot be applied in a short period of time, especially since some rites must first be revised and new liturgical books prepared.
In order that this work may be carried out with the necessary wisdom and prudence, we are establishing a special commission whose principal task will be to implement in the best possible way the prescriptions of the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy itself."
 
Just curious JKirk, why didn’t Pope Paul go by the Mass envisioned by the Council Fathers, that is the one described by the Constitution? Why did he go by the will of the Consilium that was to “implement” the Constitution not interpret?

Sacram LiturgiamPope Paul VI
Encyclical promulgated on 25 January 1964
…For these reasons it is apparent to all that it is our uppermost concern that all Christians, and especially all priests, should consecrate themselves first of all to the study of the already-mentioned Constitution and from now on, resolve to implement its individual prescriptions in good faith as soon as they enter into force…. Meanwhile, it seems evident that many prescriptions of the Constitution cannot be applied in a short period of time, especially since some rites must first be revised and new liturgical books prepared.
In order that this work may be carried out with the necessary wisdom and prudence, we are establishing a special commission whose principal task will be to implement in the best possible way the prescriptions of the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy itself."
I don’t know. I’m not privy to such information. I’m glad we have the Mass completely in the vernacular, but I readily admit that it would have been far simpler to go with a vernacular translation of the Tridentine. But there was also the goal of “noble simplicity.” The Mass of Paul VI, if celebrated properly, does acheive that goal.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top