Buddhism and Hegel

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“We can tell the those who assert the truth and certainty of the reality of sense-objects that they should go back to the most elementary school of wisdom, that is, the ancient Eleusinians Mysteries of Ceres and Bacchus, and that they have still to learn the secret meaning of the eating of bread and the drinking of wine. For he who is initiated into these Mysteries not only comes to doubt the being of sensuous things, but to despair of it; in part he brings about the nothing of such things himself in his dealings with them, and in part he sees them reduce themselves to nothingness. Even the animals are not shut out from this wisdom but, on the contrary, show themselves to be most prfoundly initiated into it; for they do not just stand idly in front of sensuous things as if these possessed intrinsic being, but, despairing of their reality, and completely assured of their nothingness, they fall to without ceremonty and eat them up. And all Nature, like the animals, celebrates these open Mysteries which teach the truth about sensuous things.” Hegel, Sense-Certainty

Hegel seems like a guy who looks at the Carl’s Jr. sign and tries not to see a smiling fact
 
When Buddhist philosophers talk about “emptiness” they mean the absence of any Platonic “form”. It is a pure reification and has no real existence. We might think that it exists, but we are mistaken.

The emptiness of emptiness is the fact that not even emptiness exists ultimately, that it is also dependent, conventional, nominal, and in the end it is just the everydayness of the everyday. Penetrating to the depths of being, we find ourselves back on the surface of things and so discover that there is nothing, after all, beneath those deceptive surfaces. Moreover, what is deceptive about them is simply the fact that we assume ontological depth lurking just beneath.

– Jay Garfield, “Empty words, Buddhist philosophy and cross-cultural interpretation.” OUP 2002.

Our common assumption of “ontological depth” is an error.

We can easily know some things, but we should not assume that we can know everything accurately. Our senses are imperfect, hence our mental image of the external world is also imperfect. It is not completely inaccurate, but it is not completely accurate either. It is fuzzy. We need to remember that it is fuzzy, because that fuzziness is not always obvious too us.

We know the world through sensory perception, so sensory perception is important. Errors there are carried on further through the system. Things that exist in our mind are not part of external reality, they are inside our heads only. The error comes when we project those internal mental entities onto the external real world. In effect we reify them and treat them as if they had a real external existence. They do not. Reification is almost always an error.

rossum
All you’ve established is that humans are limited and subject to making errors. But, it doesn’t follow from that there is no ultimate truth. Even, if humans were incapable of knowing what it was, this wouldn’t disprove it’s existence.

Sensory perception does not inhibit my ability to know that 1 plus 1 equals 2. Even if my hand writing were poor and I had blurry vision, this would not stop me from knowing the truth of that statement.

Also, I just wanted to say that there is a difference between what I see with my eyes and what I imagine. I can look at something and see it with perfect clarity. However, if I close my eyes and try to imagine what I just saw it is fuzzy in comparison. That tells me that when I am looking at something with my eyes I am seeing it as it is, unfiltered. My mind is not making a fuzzy approximation. When I try to imagine it then my imagination comes into play. Whatever ‘hardware’ is in the brain, it allows one to see the object as it is. Not through some mental projections system. And, even if there is some loss of data it is not enough to cause issues. I imagine that some error is acceptable in any system. However, the system is perfectly usable as is . And is capable of bringing one to the truth. If it wasn’t then God would have a problem bringing us to his truth wouldn’t he if he created us so faulty that we couldn’t even find him?

My car is capable of bringing me from A to B even if it is a 7 year old vehicle with some minor electrical problems. Just because something doesn’t work absolutely perfectly doesn’t mean it can’t be used to accomplish a goal or even discover truth.

The optimistic view would be to say that God is capable of leading us to the truth. The pessimistic view would be deny that there is any truth to be found or that we are capable of knowing it.
 
Although the immaterial mind must make use of sensory data, it is capable of abstract thought that goes beyond any visual or material system. It is how we can reason and know truth. God gave us an intellect and a will so that we can know truth, which is ultimately to know him.
 
The Buddhists and/or relativists take the idea “there is no ultimate truth” as if it has no substance to their own minds. So they are truly relativist and saying “is relativism true?” doesn’t affect them because that concept in its conception is a completely empty truth to them. In THEIR minds. But, to minds still young and searching for answers, we see their truth “there is no truth” as least as having to be the ultimate truth if relativism is true, and thus relativism would no longer be ultimate relativism. But it is we on the outside who are, I believe, seeing the truth of the relativists we are considering. Are we not right?
 
The Buddhists and/or relativists take the idea “there is no ultimate truth” as if it has no substance to their own minds. So they are truly relativist and saying “is relativism true?” doesn’t affect them because that concept in its conception is a completely empty truth to them. In THEIR minds. But, to minds still young and searching for answers, we see their truth “there is no truth” as least as having to be the ultimate truth if relativism is true, and thus relativism would no longer be ultimate relativism. But it is we on the outside who are, I believe, seeing the truth of the relativists we are considering. Are we not right?
There is no ultimate truth when ‘truth’ is a concept, an idea, and of the mind. It is a riddle that cannot be solved by reason and logic. It is ineffable and that it is does not differ from the understanding of Christian Mystics.
 
Even if the concept will latter flower and explode into something new, I don’t see how there cannot be a concept, true, of the ultimate truth. It may feel different as a thought latter in the journey, but its kernel is true in its own right
 
There is no ultimate truth when ‘truth’ is a concept, an idea, and of the mind. It is a riddle that cannot be solved by reason and logic. It is ineffable and that it is does not differ from the understanding of Christian Mystics.
Did you not say in post 248 that “Things have substance”??
 
Did you not say in post 248 that “Things have substance”??
“Things have substance but thinking does not, but this itself is a concept” was the way I put it. But this is a duality too, like the duality of mind and body, or thought and matter, and it is this duality that must be overcome or resolved.

This duality is also inherent in the structure of language, and what is beyond really cannot be expressed in words. It is not of the intellect and is ineffable–more like an experience. Not that it is the case here, but a person could play word games and try to find a logical contradiction when an attempt is made to express what is inexpressible in words, or whatever, but would be without meaning. This game goes on interminably on other threads and never gets anywhere.
 
You still know there is a direction towards wisdom, and you know this for certain. At least we see that for you, and if you don’t see that for yourself
 
If one cannot see reality, than one cannot know that eagles see better than us.
Can you see a mouse moving in grass from 200 metres away? Consider how birds of prey catch their food.

Can you follow a scent trail as well as a bloodhound?

Of course we can know things about reality. We have a fuzzy view of reality, not a perfect view.

That fuzziness allows us to see contingent or relative truths. It is insufficient for us to see absolute or ultimate truths.

rossum
 
All you’ve established is that humans are limited and subject to making errors. But, it doesn’t follow from that there is no ultimate truth. Even, if humans were incapable of knowing what it was, this wouldn’t disprove it’s existence.
If it does not exist, then we can safely ignore it. If we can never know it, then it is a waste of time trying to find it and we are better off ignoring it and spending our time on something more fruitful.
Sensory perception does not inhibit my ability to know that 1 plus 1 equals 2. Even if my hand writing were poor and I had blurry vision, this would not stop me from knowing the truth of that statement.
The two statements “1 + 1 = 2” and “1 + 1 = 10” have equal truth values. Both are contingent truths, dependent on the number base which is assumed, but not stated.
I can look at something and see it with perfect clarity.
No. You see it with the best clarity your eyes are capable of. If it is far away, then you can see it more clearly through a telescope. The fact that “more clearly” is possible tells you that you did not have “perfect” clarity originally. You only had a relatively clear view of the object.
Whatever ‘hardware’ is in the brain, it allows one to see the object as it is. Not through some mental projections system. And, even if there is some loss of data it is not enough to cause issues.
Any loss of data means that you do not see the object “as it is”, but “as it approximately is”. Our internal mental constructs are not reality, otherwise the water in a mirage would be real, and it isn’t.

It is an error to mistake a fuzzy approximation of something for the thing itself.

rossum
 
Can you see a mouse moving in grass from 200 metres away? Consider how birds of prey catch their food.

Can you follow a scent trail as well as a bloodhound?

Of course we can know things about reality. We have a fuzzy view of reality, not a perfect view.

That fuzziness allows us to see contingent or relative truths. It is insufficient for us to see absolute or ultimate truths.

rossum
Since the eagle is a contingent relative truth, it is not a strong argument that you can’t know reality. You are being convulated in your reasoning
 
If it does not exist, then we can safely ignore it. If we can never know it, then it is a waste of time trying to find it and we are better off ignoring it and spending our time on something more fruitful.

The two statements “1 + 1 = 2” and “1 + 1 = 10” have equal truth values. Both are contingent truths, dependent on the number base which is assumed, but not stated.

No. You see it with the best clarity your eyes are capable of. If it is far away, then you can see it more clearly through a telescope. The fact that “more clearly” is possible tells you that you did not have “perfect” clarity originally. You only had a relatively clear view of the object.

Any loss of data means that you do not see the object “as it is”, but “as it approximately is”. Our internal mental constructs are not reality, otherwise the water in a mirage would be real, and it isn’t.

It is an error to mistake a fuzzy approximation of something for the thing itself.

rossum
A mirage has no where near the clarity of a brand new grey car, a coal slick-black dogs coat, or a white girl’s leg
 
So you admit that you are at least a continual stream of consciousness. When people say with Human that personal identity is an illusion I worry that they are trying to run away from some previous guilt or hurt. You may not always feel like the same person, but love is possible so identity remains
 
“The universality which the individual as such attains is pure being, death; it is a state which has reached immediately in the course of Nature, not the result of an action consciously done. The duty of the member of a Family is on that account to add this aspect, in order that the individual’s ultimate being, too, shall not belong solely to Nature and remain something irrational, but shall be something done, and the right of consciousness be asserted in it. Or rather, the meaning of the action is that because in truth the calm and universality if a self-conscious being do not belong to Nature, the illusory appearance that the death of the individual results from a consciousness action on the part of Nature may be dispelled, and the truth established. What Nature did in the individual is that aspect in which his development into a universal is exhibited as the movement of an immediate existent. This movement falls, it is true, within the ethical community, and has this for its End; death is the fullfilment and the supreme ‘work’ which the individual as such undertakes on its behalf. But in so far as he is essentially a particular individual, it is an accident that his death was directly connected with his ‘work’ for the universal and was the result of it; partly because, if his death was such a result, it is the natural negativity and movement of the individual as a mere existent, in which consciousness does not return into itself and become self-consciousness, or partly because, since the movement of what merely exists consists in its being superseded and becoming a being-for-self, death is the side of diremption in which the attained being-for-self is something other than the mere existent which began the movement. Because the ethical order is Spirit in its immediate truth, the sides into which its consciousness sunders itself also fall into this form of immediacy, and individuality passes over into this abstract negativity which, being in its own self with consolation and reconciliation, must receive them essentially through a real and external act. Blood-relationship supplements, then, the abstract natural process by adding to it the movement of consciousness, interrupting the work of Nature and rescuing the blood-relation from destruction; or better, because destruction is necessary, the passage of the blood-relation into mere being, it takes on itself the action of destruction. Through this it comes about that the dead, the universal being, becomes a being that has returned into itself, a being-for-self, or, the powerless, simply isolated individual has been raised to universal individuality. The dead individual, by having liberated his being from his action or his negative unity, is an empty singular, merely a passive being-for-another, at the mercy of every lower irrational individuality and the forces of abstract material elements, all of which are now more powerfull than himself: the former on account of the life they possess, the latter on account of their negative nature. The Family keeps away from the dead this dishonoring of him by unconscious appetites and abstract entities, and puts its own action in their place and abstract entities, and weds the blood-relation to the bosom of the earth, to the elemental imperishable individuality. The Family thereby makes him a member of a community which prevails over and holds under control the forces of particular material elements and the lower forms of life, which sought to unloose themselves against him and to destroy him.” Hegel, The Ethical Order
 
That’s the kind of stuff that created Nazism. People who like it have said to me “I don’t know precisely what he is saying, but I feel its very important.” I think its just philosophical Picasso-ism to a large extent
 
So you admit that you are at least a continual stream of consciousness. When people say with Human that personal identity is an illusion I worry that they are trying to run away from some previous guilt or hurt. You may not always feel like the same person, but love is possible so identity remains
I meant to say Hume in this post, not Human :rolleyes:
 
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