Buddhism, Hinduism and Christianity fitting together?

[Fone_Bone_2001]

One of the things I don’t like about some forms of the Abrahamic religions is the desire to see other people suffer in Hell for eternity because they didn’t learn the right version of the religion.

I don’t agree with your current interlocutor’s discussion style or bluntness - and I think he misses a lot of things - but that said, I think what you’ve just expressed is a common misconception about the Abrahamic faiths. Christians say things like that not because we want anyone to suffer in hell - we definitely don’t - but because we genuinely believe that the danger is there, and we want to help everyone avoid it.

What comes across from rhetorically rambunctious Christians as eagerness is actually an eagerness to prevent what we speak of.

That said, rossum, we’re not assuming that you or anyone else will end up in hell. After all, we’re unable to see the ways in which grace may be working in people’s lives, unbeknownst to us. All we know is that only one way to eternal enjoyment of the Beautific Vision has been *definitively *revealed - and that is surrender to Christ - repentance, faith, perseverance in Him…

 

[Sufjon]

The disagreements … are the difference between heaven … and hell … for eternity.

And therein lies the problem with Abrahamic religion. With this idea pounded into your psyche repeatedly from crib to cradle, it is hard with any certainly to tell if you actually love God for the sake of love, or that you love God because you’re looking for a reward or fearing punishment, or if you are just suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. I wonder if you took the promise of eternal damnation away how many people would ever go to church. I don’t think the answer can be known, but my bet is that there wouldn’t even be a church if everyone knew they would eventually go to heaven.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Ahimsa]

I think it is a bit inaccurate (though understandable) to label the Abrahamic tradition itself as a proponent of eternal hell. Abraham certainly didn’t teach it. Many, if not most, Jewish traditions reject eternal hell; as do many Christians and Muslims. The Baha’i don’t teach it. And there’s good reason to think that Jesus didn’t teach it either.

Hasidic Jews, a very Orthodox Jewish tradition, sees “hell” as a temporary, purifying process:
In our world vision, “Hell” is not a place of eternal fire and brimstone. Rather, purgatory is a place where we are purified like iron whitened in a fire. It is a painful process, but not forever. A good start to avoid such tribulation is to try to achieve balance physically, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually, in all we do, say, and think. No easy task, for there is almost no tzaddik that does not miss the mark some time. The brilliance of our folkways is that they always promote return. Work on your emotional attributes and you will become a different person. And a bit less likely for the hot seat described above.

 

[soma]

Ecumenism is the promotion of unity and cooperation between distinct religious groups and denominations in Christianity and in the larger sense the unity among all religions worldwide. Jesus modeled this by associating with all people and castes. He shows us unity by showing us the silent witness inside that sees the Divine and Beloved in everyone’s eyes. He was not interested in converting people to his way of thinking or selling real estate in heaven, but to guide people who were ready to go deeper into themselves and the spiritual experience of unity. The spiritual experience can’t be taught, but Jesus offered a way to the experience, where God’s pure consciousness could be felt. Jesus showed a path to the ocean of God’s pure consciousness, a journey of transformation to be in harmony. His consciousness takes us beyond the world to an ocean more real than the world of senses. Yes, the Kingdom of heaven where the world of opposites, good and bad does not grow. Jesus cuts through the nonsense that people use to offend, condemn and separate people to comfort the offender and the people offended. He showed us how to watch our own minds and not to judge other minds.

 

[Protector]

rossum;8515091] The Temple was a Jewish Temple, not a Christian Temple. The Jews worship a single God, not a Trinity. Moslems also worship a single God, not a Trinity. The Trinity was never worshiped in the Jewish Temple.

So as to keep this discussion on a level playing field, it has to be admitted that some “Christians” do not worship a Triune God.

I am not one of them BTW.

Protector.

 

[1voice]

I think it is a bit inaccurate (though understandable) to label the Abrahamic tradition itself as a proponent of eternal hell. Abraham certainly didn’t teach it.
[/INDENT]

Luke 16:

19There was a certain rich man who [habitually] clothed himself in purple and fine linen and [m]reveled and feasted and made merry in splendor every day.

20And at his gate there [n]was [carelessly] dropped down and left a certain [o]utterly destitute man named Lazarus, [reduced to begging alms and] covered with [p]ulcerated] sores.

21He [eagerly] desired to be satisfied with what fell from the rich man's table; moreover, the dogs even came and licked his sores.

22And it occurred that the man [reduced to] begging died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.

23And in Hades (the realm of the dead), being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24And he cried out and said, Father Abraham, have pity and mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.

25But Abraham said, Child, remember that you in your lifetime fully received [what is due you in] comforts and delights, and Lazarus in like manner the discomforts and distresses; but now he is comforted here and you are in anguish.

26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who want to pass from this [place] to you may not be able, and no one may pass from there to us.

27And [the man] said, Then, father, I beseech you to send him to my father's house--

28For I have five brothers--so that he may give [solemn] testimony and warn them, lest they too come into this place of torment.

29But Abraham said, They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear and listen to them.

30But he answered, No, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent ([q]change their minds for the better and heartily amend their ways, with abhorrence of their past sins).

31He said to him, If they do not hear and listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded and convinced and believe [even] if someone should rise from the dead.

 

[Ahimsa]

Luke 16:

19There was a certain rich man who [habitually] clothed himself in purple and fine linen and [m]reveled and feasted and made merry in splendor every day.
…
24And he cried out and said, Father Abraham, have pity and mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.

There’s nothing here about the flames being “eternal”.

 

[1voice]

There’s nothing here about the flames being “eternal”.

Matthew 25:41
Then He will say to those at His left hand, Begone from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!

Mark 9
to be cast into hell fire— 48 where
’ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

Isaiah 66:24
Amplified Bible (AMP)
24And they shall go forth and gaze upon the dead bodies of the [rebellious] men who have stepped over against Me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all mankind

Matthew 10:28
And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be afraid of Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell

 

[Ahimsa]

Matthew 25:41
Then He will say to those at His left hand, Begone from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!

Mark 9
to be cast into hell fire— 48 where
’ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

Isaiah 66:24
Amplified Bible (AMP)
24And they shall go forth and gaze upon the dead bodies of the [rebellious] men who have stepped over against Me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all mankind

Worms do die, so that phrase can’t be taken literally – unless you’re saying hell has literal worms in it.

Matthew 10:28
And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be afraid of Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell

There’s no mention of an eternal suffering in hell.

 

[Ahimsa]

Matthew 25:41
Then He will say to those at His left hand, Begone from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!

This is quote gives your strongest case. What’s the Greek for “eternal” here? It’s αἰώνιον, or “aionion”, from “aion” (where we get the English “eon”) meaning “ages; lifetime”. The translation of “aionion” as “eternal” (as in “lasting forever and ever, without end”) is not a necessary reading from the original Greek.

 

[Sufjon]

Matthew 25:41
Then He will say to those at His left hand, Begone from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!

Mark 9
to be cast into hell fire— 48 where
’ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

Isaiah 66:24
Amplified Bible (AMP)
24And they shall go forth and gaze upon the dead bodies of the [rebellious] men who have stepped over against Me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all mankind

Matthew 10:28
And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be afraid of Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell

Well, I know that many Christians believe in an eternal Hell, however, these quotes, like many quotes from Jesus are ambiguous. I read them to say that the place is eternal, the fire is eternal, but these do not say that your stay there will be eternal. On the other hand, He doesn’t say that you will be there only temporarily either. My belief is that He would have meant that the place was eternal, but I can’t prove that.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Contarini]

The Muslim god Allah is not the same as the Christian God. I agree that Allah means god but if you would ask any Muslim and if he is truthful, he would tell you the same thing.

Again, you make yourself impervious to anything you don’t want to hear, in this case by saying that any Muslim (and that would be nearly all Muslims) who says that their God is the same as our God is not truthful.

Muslims generally believe that we worship Allah but mistakenly “associate partners” with Him.

Edwin

 

[1voice]

This is quote gives your strongest case. What’s the Greek for “eternal” here? It’s αἰώνιον, or “aionion”, from “aion” (where we get the English “eon”) meaning “ages; lifetime”. The translation of “aionion” as “eternal” (as in “lasting forever and ever, without end”) is not a necessary reading from the original Greek.

The word and its root “aion” has multiple meanings and a myriad of applications … all of which are dependent on the context in which it is used.

 

[Ahimsa]

The word and its root “aion” has multiple meanings and a myriad of applications … all of which are dependent on the context in which it is used.

Right, which is why I said that it’s not clear that Jesus taught “eternal” damnation.

 

[CopticChristian]

A friend of mine lent me his World Religions(Huston Smith) text book. I ended up reading the chapters on Christianity, Hinduism, and Buddhism. The 3 religions all shared notable storys and teachings such as:

Mara trying to tempt Buddha (Jesus in the desert with the Devil)
The ideas of acceptance of God.
The stages of life (Sacraments),
The idea of letting go of material items to follow God or a deeper calling.
The 10 Commandments and Path of Renunciation (refrain from certain things for God)
Love, joy, and peace and a lifestyle free from guilt.

These are all deep basic ideas that all trace back to morality, and the idea of 1 God; living a better lifestyle. In a sense, they all seem the same on ground level. Is it possible to be Christian but agree and follow some Hinduist and Buddhist ideas?

It is possible to be Christian and find that Hindu’s and Buddhist’s follow ideas planted in their hearts by God. Paul pointed that out in Romans. God is God of All. God is impartial. The Gentiles who have not circumcision are circumcised of the heart. The gentiles who have not the law are a law unto themselves. When you find Christiainity in other religions it is because God planted those similarities not for you to practice them for what you have needs no additions. You have the full deposit of faith.

 

[1voice]

Originally Posted by 1voice
The word and its root “aion” has multiple meanings and a myriad of applications … all of which are dependent on the context in which it is used.

Right, which is why I said that it’s not clear that Jesus taught “eternal” damnation.

The ambiguity is removed by context.

 

[Sufjon]

Originally Posted by 1voice
The word and its root “aion” has multiple meanings and a myriad of applications … all of which are dependent on the context in which it is used.

The ambiguity is removed by context.

Can you explain how? All the contexts in which I can recall finding these references are indeed ambiguous. Sure, you can read one meaning or another into it, but that’s the problem - you can read one or the other into it.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[1voice]

Originally Posted by 1voice
The word and its root “aion” has multiple meanings and a myriad of applications … all of which are dependent on the context in which it is used.
The ambiguity is removed by context.

Can you explain how? All the contexts in which I can recall finding these references are indeed ambiguous. Sure, you can read one meaning or another into it, but that’s the problem - you can read one or the other into it.

Your friend
Sufjon

One of Jesus’ purpose in becoming a man was to remove all ambiguity about who God is and what he thinks and to demonstrate his love and commitment to mankind.

Jesus did not want to go to the cross … and then to hell… in fact he despised the thought… He said, to God the Father … If there is any other way … I beg you to take that option.

He specifically asked 3 times that he not be required to take on all of the sins and guilt of all mankind … submit himself to hell … and pay the penalty for every person.
He did it … only out of his great love for us … and obedience to his Father.

This was Jesus, (THE son of God) talking. He despised what he had to do and would have not done it … except that there was no other alternative (for the creator of the universe)

If Jesus … who had all of the wisdom and attributes of God … did not want anywhere near what he faced… How much more terrible is it for you … and me.

He paid the penalty for sin … so that we dont have to… because he knows how horrible it is.

… That is the context.
… The thought of going to hell made the Son of God sweat blood.

Jesus never described hell as a place of purging or regeneration. He said that it is a place where the soul is destroyed.

Matthew 10:28
And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be afraid of Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna).

Jesus also said that it is possible for a person to lose their soul … (and not in the good way)

Mark 8:36
For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?

More context…

The Bible clearly states … that the wages of sin … is death (that means the second death in hell). It also states that all of us have sinned and as a result we are eternally separated from God.

The Bible also says that we can never atone for sin. Jesus is the only one that was capable of absorbing the penalty.

The Bible states that the free gift of God is forgiveness … simply by stating that you believe that Jesus is the only one that could possibly satisfy God’s demand for eternal justice … and Jesus (through his incredible strength and obedience) … did (in one lifetime) that which could not be accomplished by anyone … in over a million lifetimes… he made a way to have peace for all eternity … between sinful man and a righteous God.

I said all that to say this … God proved what hell is by his own actions… specifically orchestrated to prevent anyone from having to go there.

Context shows that hell is not a place designed to cleanse the soul … or anything else.

 

[Sufjon]

I am having trouble following your line of reasoning, so perhaps you can help me out here.

One of Jesus’ purpose in becoming a man was to remove all ambiguity about who God is and what he thinks and to demonstrate his love and commitment to mankind.

How does that relate to hell being eternal?

Jesus did not want to go to the cross … and then to hell… in fact he despised the thought… He said, to God the Father … If there is any other way … I beg you to take that option.

Which means He has some reservations about being crucified. Understandable, but how does that prove that one’s stay in hell is eternal?

He specifically asked 3 times that he not be required to take on all of the sins and guilt of all mankind … submit himself to hell … and pay the penalty for every person.
He did it … only out of his great love for us … and obedience to his Father.

I do recall Him asking if there was another way, but where did He ask if there was another way and say that hell is eternal? The two ideas do not necessarily or even require that they relate.

This was Jesus, (THE son of God) talking. He despised what he had to do and would have not done it … except that there was no other alternative (for the creator of the universe)

How does that relate to one’s stay in hell being eternal?

If Jesus … who had all of the wisdom and attributes of God … did not want anywhere near what he faced… How much more terrible is it for you … and me.

Yes, it was terrible. But He rose again and I think He’s fine now, but how does that support the idea that your stay in hell is eternal?

He paid the penalty for sin … so that we don’t have to… because he knows how horrible it is.

… That is the context.
… The thought of going to hell made the Son of God sweat blood.

Or He might have died for the remission of sin, and of course in the original Greek translations, sin meant more of misalignment with one’s proper order, rather than a state of being bad. Perhaps sin is ignorance, and specifically the ignorance caused by the illusion of death. Perhaps by rising again, He showed that what we truly are has no beginning and no end. The remission of sin could mean to peal that illusion back. Either way, none of this points to an eternal stay in hell. It can certainly be a state of being that is eternally available for occupy, but the natural state of the cosmos seems to be change and mutability, so that which passes through hell must also evolve. I see nothing compelling in any of this that would point to anyone’s stay in hell being permanent. The wording doesn’t support it.

Matthew 10:28
And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be afraid of Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna).

Gehenna: A trash heap outside the walls of Jerusalem where rubbish was burnt. It is no longer used for that purpose, so if we use this passage as direct evidence of the permanence or impermanence of hell, it is already out of commission.

Jesus also said that it is possible for a person to lose their soul … (and not in the good way)

Mark 8:36
For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?

It is still your soul, even if it is in hell, therefore you have not lost it. You have instead placed it somewhere less favorable. More likely He means losing touch with the true nature of your soul, and losing the understanding of that which we are. A soul in hell is not lost. It;s location is known.

It also states that all of us have sinned and as a result we are eternally separated from God.

So the death on the cross thing didn’t work?

The Bible also says that we can never atone for sin. Jesus is the only one that was capable of absorbing the penalty.

The Bible states that the free gift of God is forgiveness … simply by stating that you believe that Jesus is the only one that could possibly satisfy God’s demand for eternal justice … and Jesus (through his incredible strength and obedience) … did (in one lifetime) that which could not be accomplished by anyone … in over a million lifetimes… he made a way to have peace for all eternity … between sinful man and a righteous God.

How does that relate to hell being eternal? Yes, you can be in a hell that you place yourself in, but again, none of this says that** your stay there **is eternal.

I said all that to say this … God proved what hell is by his own actions… specifically orchestrated to prevent anyone from having to go there.

Context shows that hell is not a place designed to cleanse the soul … or anything else.

Again, the topic is the permanence of one’s stay there. My conclusion is that we have not established a conclusion that supports the idea of the permanence of hell. Do you have something somewhere where Jesus says that the experience of hell is permanent for any given Jivatman (soul)?

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[1voice]

Again, the topic is the permanence of one’s stay there. My conclusion is that we have not established a conclusion that supports the idea of the permanence of hell. Do you have something somewhere where Jesus says that the experience of hell is permanent for any given Jivatman (soul)?

Your friend,
Sufjon

In the Bible it is taught that each man lives only one life on the Earth and then his soul is subject to judgement. Jesus purpose was to prevent people from having to experience the second death described by John in the Book of Revelation.

There is never any indication anywhere in the Bible indicating that … once a soul is cast into hell for the reasons given … that soul is ever released.

Rev 20:14
This is the second death, the lake of fire.

15And if anyone's [name] was not found recorded in the Book of Life, he was hurled into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:
And He Who is seated on the throne said, See! I make all things new. Also He said, Record this, for these sayings are faithful (accurate, incorruptible, and trustworthy) and true (genuine).(D)

6And He [further] said to me, It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I [Myself] will give water without price from the fountain (springs) of the water of Life.(E)

7He who is victorious shall inherit all these things, and I will be God to him and he shall be My son.

8But as for the cowards and the ignoble and the contemptible and the cravenly lacking in courage and the cowardly submissive, and as for the unbelieving and faithless, and as for the depraved and defiled with abominations, and as for murderers and the lewd and adulterous and the practicers of magic arts and the idolaters (those who give supreme devotion to anyone or anything other than God) and all liars (those who knowingly convey untruth by word or deed)--[all of these shall have] their part in the lake that blazes with fire and brimstone. This is the second death.(F)