buddhism

[notself]

Father Kennedy is problematic for a lot of people, for you cannot serve two gods and be a Good Catholic. But, I’m glad you decided to check out this site. As to Merten, I think he got too excited about Buddhism IMHO. I just wonder, by what you say about a lot of ex-Catholics being on that Buddhist forum, what got them into Buddhism?
PAX

Various reasons. Some had bad experiences and left to look for something else. Some were like me and just left.

Were you born a Catholic or did you Convert?

 

[Fa_Chan]

But we have seen no posts from a representative of the devotional Mahayana tradition (I know that devotional Mayahana and Zen are not incompatible, but someone who had been into Zen might never have participated in other aspects of the Mahayana tradition).

Obviously the definition of “worship” is up for dispute (try listening in on a debate about whether Catholics “worship” saints!). But I can easily see that the devotion paid to the Buddha by Theravada Buddhists is quite distinct from what I would call worship. That is not in dispute, I think. But Mahayana Buddhism, most strikingly the “Pure Land” version, does seem to engage in what I would call worship of Buddha. I’m willing to grant that this is different from the worship I pay to God. But I’d like to hear from a representative of that tradition to understand just how it is different.

I’m a Pure Land/devotional Buddhist. I follow both Chinese and Japanese teachers and traditions. We are sometimes referred to as “pseudo-Buddhists” and sometimes ridiculed for our practices. In Chinese Pure Land, the “worship” is really non-existent. This tradition tends to focus on the non-physical existence of Amituofo (the Buddha who is central to this tradition) and considers him as a mind-only creation.

Even in the Japanese Jodo-Shinshu tradition, Amituofo (Amida, Jp) is seen as less of a “person” and more of an all-encompassing reality or “force”. However, there were Chinese and Japanese masters who influenced Master Honen Shonin who created the Jodo Shu tradition in Japan that specifically views Amida (Jp) as an existential being.

In the daily service that is practiced, called the “otsutome” the word “worship” is used. There is a confessional part of the liturgy where the person lays all their evil karma before Amida Buddha and confesses before him. This is still different than the theistic form of worship.

For example, we don’t pray to Amida Buddha to heal us or do things for us. We don’t expect him to perform miracles. We are expected to live our lives as any other Buddhist would, observing moral standards and even meditation to a limited extent. We will bow to a statue, burn incense, offer flowers, etc, but it’s still different than theism. We respect Amida Buddha and chant his name and he has vowed to hear us and lead us to his Pure Land in the West where we will attain the state of nirvana.

In some sense you might say it is worship, but I would liken it to the Catholic idea of asking saints for help and knowing that they can help us if we call upon them. As you know (if you’re Catholic) this is something grossly misunderstood by many. But, I assure you that Amida Buddha is not looked upon as “God” or even a “god”. He is an enlightened being that we draw close to and who we rely on to lead us to nirvana.

continued…

 

[Fa_Chan]

continued by Fa Chan…

Contarini:

Furthermore, isn’t it the Mahayana view that there is a “Buddha nature” in everything, and that the historical Buddha has some kind of cosmic body that exists outside space and time? (I’m probably butchering their belief, but it does appear quite different from the Theravada view that the Buddha has simply “gone out” like a candle now that he’s attained Nirvana.) And finally, your emphasis on the “self-help” aspect of Buddhism seems, again, very Theravada. Don’t the Mahayana believe that a boddhisattva is precisely someone who has chosen to devote himself or herself to saving others? Again, the Pure Land Buddhists are the best (but not, I think, the unique) examples of this.

In short, it seems to me that you are presenting a Theravada perspective as if it was the only Buddhist perspective.

Edwin

Edwin, I don’t want to speak for any of the other Buddhists, but there are mostly Theravada practitioners here (whom I respect greatly) And so you may get their view. Their views are certainly the oldest living ones in Buddhism.

Yes, the Mahayana view is that all beings have Buddha nature. We just have to realize it. We are all essentially buddhas. We just haven’t uncovered that nature due to the delusions and things that have covered it. Sort of like a mirror that just needs polishing. But, in reality there is no mirror either

And yes again, the Mahayana view is that the original Buddha, Shakyamuni, does transcend time and space (similar to “God”). But, the Mahayana view is identical to the Theravada in that there is no eternal, self-existent person I can call “myself”.

You are on a roll here and yes again, we Mahayana followers focus on releasing ourselves and others. We don’t abandon our own enlightenment because it is how we will help others eventually. We simply have evolved methods that are more conducive to more people (the Theravada would say), thereby allowing more people to attain nirvana. I would say, however, that the teachings we follow (although not in the Pali Canon) were spoken by the Buddha and are every bit as authentic as the Theravada.

Hopefully I haven’t muddied the waters any more than need be And I appreciate your knowledge and openness to have dialogue with Buddhists. Truly, a welcome attitude in a world where so much is wrong.

Peace…

Fa Chan

 

[Bennie_P]

Various reasons. Some had bad experiences and left to look for something else. Some were like me and just left.

Were you born a Catholic or did you Convert?

I was raised a Baptist, had a “born again” experience at 18. Then slowly drifted into agnostic/eastern philosophy(beat) mind set. Then I drifted along for a time into shamanism. Had a slow reconversion into Christianity, then two years ago had a radical conversion into Catholicism. Never knew there could be such joy as I have now.

 

[notself]

Fa Chan;

Thank you for your “enlightening” posts. Please excuse any errors I may have made in my post. They were unintentional.

Metta &
Namaste,
notself

 

[notself]

I was raised a Baptist, had a “born again” experience at 18. Then slowly drifted into agnostic/eastern philosophy(beat) mind set. Then I drifted along for a time into shamanism. Had a slow reconversion into Christianity, then two years ago had a radical conversion into Catholicism. Never knew there could be such joy as I have now.

Wonderful.

What triggered your “radical conversion”?

 

[Bennie_P]

Wonderful.

What triggered your “radical conversion”?

The Holy Spirit

While reflecting on these verses over a period of a few weeks.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him. And I will raise him up in the last day.

John 6:65 (6:66) And he said: Therefore did I say to you that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father.
John 6:66 (6:67) After this, many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him.
John 6:67 (6:68) Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away?
John 6:68 (6:69) And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life.
John 6:69 (6:70) And we have believed and have known that thou art the Christ, the Son of God.

Then one day bam all the verses in between made perfect sense.

 

[notself]

The Holy Spirit

While reflecting on these verses over a period of a few weeks.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him. And I will raise him up in the last day.

John 6:65 (6:66) And he said: Therefore did I say to you that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father.
John 6:66 (6:67) After this, many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him.
John 6:67 (6:68) Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away?
John 6:68 (6:69) And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life.
John 6:69 (6:70) And we have believed and have known that thou art the Christ, the Son of God.

Then one day bam all the verses in between made perfect sense.

Given the animosity of some Baptist people towards Catholicism, what first drew you to the Church.

Did you get flack from your family? Or were they just relieved that you weren’t following shamanism any more?

 

[Fa_Chan]

Fa Chan;

Thank you for your “enlightening” posts. Please excuse any errors I may have made in my post. They were unintentional.

Metta &
Namaste,
notself

No, notself. You have answered the questions remarkably well to not be a Pure Lander. You made excellent points that I thought were even better than mine. I just thought I would share from my perspective and experience. I greatly admire you, Rossum and others for your thoughtfulness and knowledge. Let this thread not be the end of our conversations If I said something to offend you I apologize. I certainly had no intentions of such.

May you be happy and free from suffering!

Peace…

Fa Chan

 

[Fa_Chan]

My question to those that were not raised Buddhist, but as Christians, what was it that you didn’t want to give up to follow Christ?

Forgive me Bennie for snipping this post from 109, but I wanted to answer this question from my perspective.

I was born, raised and baptized (immersed) a Southern Baptist.

I was a Sunday School teacher and faithful, praying Christian.

To make a long story short, I began to study world religions in a naive and foolish attempt at assuring myself of the primacy of Christianity and embodiment of truth.

What I found was that as I studied Buddhism for years I began to open my mind and saw the wisdom and knowledge of the Buddha to be without measure. I began to meditate and noticed how peaceful and happy I was. This was the indication to me that I needed to follow the Buddha’s path. It was a long process, but I eventually left Christianity and took refuge in Buddhism January 2006.

I moved from Zen to Pure Land, to mixing the two and now to practicing Pure Land exclusively. The thing to remember is that everybody’s experience is different and many people leave their faiths for a variety of reasons that are solely specific to them. I never encourage people to throw away their faith because it can be dangerous and lead to mental and emotional difficulties.

It wasn’t till after years of study and contemplation that I decided to change my path. It didn’t happen overnight. I encourage everyone to follow the path they feel led to follow and to simply be happy. That’s the crux of the matter. You simply have to be happy.

I appreciate your manner of dialogue and encourage you to keep this great attitude. I wish you peace and happiness.

Peace…

Fa Chan

 

[Bennie_P]

Given the animosity of some Baptist people towards Catholicism, what first drew you to the Church.

Did you get flack from your family? Or were they just relieved that you weren’t following shamanism any more?

I married a Catholic 20 years ago but it took 18 years before I converted. I quit practicing shamanism in the 90’s, I don’t know what my family thought about shamanism, I practiced it not preached it. But my siblings always thought I was weird. Some things I practiced was actually related to Appalachian folk medicine that I learned about indirectly from great-grandfather as a boy.
The people most shocked about my conversion were the people from my parish, they thought I was already Catholic because of my involvement in non-religious activities at the parish and parish school. My Uncle who is a Baptist minister seems to have no problem with it, nor the pastor from the church I was active in before my conversion.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908, the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi continues presenting evidences that Jesus came to India from Buddhist/Tibetan historic resources:
alislam.org/library/books…india/ch4.html
Evidence from books on Buddhism

"I have already stated that the Buddha also believes in the existence of the Devil, so he also believes in hell and heaven, in angels and in the Day of Judgment. The charge that the Buddha did not believe in God is a pure fabrication. The Buddha did not believe in Vedanta and in corporeal Gods of the Hindus. He criticises the Vedas a great deal. He does not believe in the existing Vedas. He regards them as corrupt and interpolated. The period during which he was a Hindu and a follower of the Vedas, he regards as the period of evil birth.

For example, he hints that for a time he was a monkey; again for a time, an elephant; then a deer, and a dog; four times a snake, and then a sparrow, then a frog; twice a fish, ten times a tiger, four times a fowl, twice a pig, and once a hare, and that at the time he was a hare he used to teach the monkeys, the jackals, the water-dogs; again, he says that he was a ghost; once, a woman, a dancer and the Devil.

All these hints are meant to point to phases of life full of cowardice, of womanish behaviour, of impurity and savagery, of profligacy, gluttony, and superstition. It appears that in this way he points to the time when he was a follower of the Vedas, for, after abandoning the latter he gives no hint of any trace of an evil life still persisting in him.

On the other hand, he then makes great claims; he said that he had become a manifestation of god and had attained Nirwana. The Buddha also states that the man who goes from the world taking hellish actions with him is thrown into hell, sentinels of hell drag him towards the King of Hell, called Yamah, and the condemned one is then asked whether he had not seen the Five Messengers who had been sent to warn him: Childhood – Old Age – Disease – Being punished for one’s guilt in this very life, a proof of the punishment of the hereafter – Dead bodies which point to the destructibility of the universe.

The condemned one replies that he had been a fool, he had not thought over any of these things. The Guardians of hell then drag him to the place of chastisement and fasten him with iron chains red-hot like fire. The Buddha, moreover, says that hell has several regions into which sinners of different categories would be cast. In short, all this teaching cries out loudly that the Buddhist religion is indebted to the personal influence of Jesus.

I do not, however, propose to go on with this discussion. I close this section here, for when there is a clear prophecy, stated in books of the Buddhist faith, about the coming of Jesus to his country – a prophecy which no one can deny – when the parables and the moral teaching of the Gospels are to be found in books of the Buddhist faith compiled in Jesus’ time – both these considerations combined do not leave any doubt about the coming of Jesus to this country. The evidence, therefore, for which we had set out to make a search through Buddhistic records has been completely recovered – thanks to Almighty God." Unquote

Thanks

 

[Fa_Chan]

Hi

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908, the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi continues presenting evidences that Jesus came to India from Buddhist/Tibetan historic resources:
alislam.org/library/books…india/ch4.html
Evidence from books on Buddhism

"I have already stated that the Buddha also believes in the existence of the Devil, so he also believes in hell and heaven, in angels and in the Day of Judgment. The charge that the Buddha did not believe in God is a pure fabrication. The Buddha did not believe in Vedanta and in corporeal Gods of the Hindus. He criticises the Vedas a great deal. He does not believe in the existing Vedas. He regards them as corrupt and interpolated. The period during which he was a Hindu and a follower of the Vedas, he regards as the period of evil birth.

For example, he hints that for a time he was a monkey; again for a time, an elephant; then a deer, and a dog; four times a snake, and then a sparrow, then a frog; twice a fish, ten times a tiger, four times a fowl, twice a pig, and once a hare, and that at the time he was a hare he used to teach the monkeys, the jackals, the water-dogs; again, he says that he was a ghost; once, a woman, a dancer and the Devil.

All these hints are meant to point to phases of life full of cowardice, of womanish behaviour, of impurity and savagery, of profligacy, gluttony, and superstition. It appears that in this way he points to the time when he was a follower of the Vedas, for, after abandoning the latter he gives no hint of any trace of an evil life still persisting in him.

On the other hand, he then makes great claims; he said that he had become a manifestation of god and had attained Nirwana. The Buddha also states that the man who goes from the world taking hellish actions with him is thrown into hell, sentinels of hell drag him towards the King of Hell, called Yamah, and the condemned one is then asked whether he had not seen the Five Messengers who had been sent to warn him: Childhood – Old Age – Disease – Being punished for one’s guilt in this very life, a proof of the punishment of the hereafter – Dead bodies which point to the destructibility of the universe.

The condemned one replies that he had been a fool, he had not thought over any of these things. The Guardians of hell then drag him to the place of chastisement and fasten him with iron chains red-hot like fire. The Buddha, moreover, says that hell has several regions into which sinners of different categories would be cast. In short, all this teaching cries out loudly that the Buddhist religion is indebted to the personal influence of Jesus.

I do not, however, propose to go on with this discussion. I close this section here, for when there is a clear prophecy, stated in books of the Buddhist faith, about the coming of Jesus to his country – a prophecy which no one can deny – when the parables and the moral teaching of the Gospels are to be found in books of the Buddhist faith compiled in Jesus’ time – both these considerations combined do not leave any doubt about the coming of Jesus to this country. The evidence, therefore, for which we had set out to make a search through Buddhistic records has been completely recovered – thanks to Almighty God." Unquote

Thanks

The link is not good. Can you repost this link? Thanks.

Peace…

Fa Chan

 

[Contarini]

Fa Chan,

Thank you very much for your posts. This is helpful to me, since I teach world religions at a small Christian college. My field is actually the history of Christianity, but we have no expert in non-Christian religions and I’m the faculty member most interested in the subject. I am getting ready to teach the course for the second time, so any feedback from people who practice other religions is greatly appreciated.

Fort Wayne, 20 miles from where I live, is a center of Southeast Asian immigration, and I would like to try to make contact with some of the Theravada monastic communities in the area.

Edwin

 

[Fa_Chan]

Fa Chan,

Thank you very much for your posts. This is helpful to me, since I teach world religions at a small Christian college. My field is actually the history of Christianity, but we have no expert in non-Christian religions and I’m the faculty member most interested in the subject. I am getting ready to teach the course for the second time, so any feedback from people who practice other religions is greatly appreciated.

Fort Wayne, 20 miles from where I live, is a center of Southeast Asian immigration, and I would like to try to make contact with some of the Theravada monastic communities in the area.

Edwin

No, the pleasure is all mine. That’s great that you teach world religions at a Christian college. I didn’t realize that this kind of course would be taught there, but I guess if you are training people to interact with those of other faiths, this kind of course would be useful. I hope that this second go-round is beneficial to you and your students.

I would think that if you contacted any of the local temples or communities that they would be more than willing to answer questions or have you come by to visit. I contacted a local Theravada Vietnamese temple once to see if I could come by and visit. The lady could not speak English, but put on a young man who could. He was nice and told me that all people are welcome, Buddhist and non-Buddhist. So, I would give it a try

I wish I could help more. I’m a lay Buddhist and do not have any credentials to speak of. But, if you need to ask something I would certainly help you find the answer if I didn’t know it myself. rossum and notself are very knowledgeable Theravada practitioners who seem more than qualified to help also.

May you and your school receive many blessings…

Fa Chan

 

[notself]

Contarini,

Here is a link to a monastery in Fort Wayne. I assume you mean Indiana. You could make arrangements for your class to visit during the Kathina Robe Offering every year. You are not required to participate in the offering or take part in the ceremony itself. dhammarekkhita.org/stbsinfo/

I just called the number. The gentleman I spoke to said call at the end of October. If one of your students speaks Burmese, it would be useful for him or her to call. Sometimes Asian accents can be difficult for Americans to understand, but Buddhists are a patient lot and won’t mind repeating themselves. You should not visit before October 26, which is the end of Rains Retreat.

Here is something about the practice of giving robes.

“The origin of the ceremony is that once a group of thirty monks from Patha Township set out for Savatthi, where the Buddha was residing at Jeta Grove (Jetavana). However, they could not make it in time before the start of the Rains Retreat and decided to stay instead at Saketa, a neighboring town of Savatthi. When the Rains ended, they hastened to Savatthi to see the Buddha. Perceiving that their Saffron Robes were all worn out as a result of their efforts to reach him, the Buddha decreed the rule for them to accept the clothes given by the lay persons within one-month from the first day of the eleventh waning moon to the full moon of the twelfth lunar month (occurring between mid-October and mid-November).

This was the beginning of the Kathina Robes Ceremony, which has continued to the present time. Buddhist Dhamma Practitioners all over the world still observe the ceremony after the rainy season, the robes offered are the same form as what they were in ancient times and the words chanted during the ceremony have never been altered.

The Kathina ceremony is very important to all who participate - both the lay persons who make the offerings and the Bhikkhus (fully ordained monks) who receive them.

The benefit of the Kathina ceremony is one of mutual support between Monks and lay persons.” buddhistinformation.com/buddha_dhamma_practice_and_the_k.htm

According to the Theravada Vinaya, monastic discipline, monks and nuns own nothing. They cannot handle money, buy or trade for food, raise crops, or engage in trade. They are totally dependent upon the lay community for their support. In exchange the monks and nuns are left to concentrate on reaching Nibbana (Nirvana). They are also responsible for memorizing the texts and teaching the Dhamma (Dharma) to the lay community.

 

[paarsurrey]

The link is not good. Can you repost this link? Thanks.
Peace…
Fa Chan

Hi

I mention the link again.

alislam.org/
alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/index.html
alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/ch4.html

Name of the book: Jesus in India
Chapter 4
SECTION 2
Evidence from books on Buddhism

Hope you find it.

Thanks

 

[Contarini]

Contarini,

Here is a link to a monastery in Fort Wayne. I assume you mean Indiana. You could make arrangements for your class to visit during the Kathina Robe Offering every year. You are not required to participate in the offering or take part in the ceremony itself. dhammarekkhita.org/stbsinfo/.

Thanks for this. I had actualy thought about doing this, but I have been travelling a lot this summer, and then my parents were visiting, and I haven’t had time to contact the monks.

Are you saying that they are in retreat now and shouldn’t be contacted? That’s too bad, but monks need their retreat. . . .

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

No, the pleasure is all mine. That’s great that you teach world religions at a Christian college. I didn’t realize that this kind of course would be taught there, but I guess if you are training people to interact with those of other faiths, this kind of course would be useful. I hope that this second go-round is beneficial to you and your students.

Well, first of all a Christian liberal arts college teaches all the things a secular college would. We are interested in all knowledge–we just try to relate everything to our faith in Christ!

I have joked that the World Religions class at my college is like the Defense Against the Dark Arts class at Hogwarts (not because I think other religions are Dark Arts, though some of the students may think this!). It keeps getting shuffled around from one professor to another, because we don’t really have a specialist in the field. We have recently hired an Asian historian in the history department, and I had hoped that we might hire someone with expertise in one of the Asian religious traditions. However, the professor we hired is an expert in modern international relations having to do with Southeast Asia. . . .

I enjoy teaching the class, although beyond one class in Judaism I really have no academic credentials to teach non-Christian religions. I have, however, done a lot of reading over the years. The past semester was not a success–I enjoyed it and learned a lot, but didn’t do a good job of digesting the material and presenting it to the students in an accessible way. I dumped way too much info on them because I was sorting it out myself. Furthermore, as a historian (of Christianity) I approach the study of religion historically. Most of the people who taught the class before me were theologians or philosophers, and they taught it in a more abstract way than I do. The students generally want to be told “this is what Jews believe” or “this is what Buddhists believe,” and I don’t think it’s that simple. (Hence my questioning of the blanket statement “Buddhists don’t worship Buddha,” because I wanted to be sure that this was reflecting a variety of Buddhist perspectives.) Unfortunately, it’s hard to teach the historical development of four major religious traditions (I focused on Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism, though I touched on Jainism, Sikhism, Confucianism, Daoism, and Shintoism as well!) in one semester without overwhelming the students. . .

A further problem, which you can guess, is that many of the students are primarily interested in how to refute other religions or evangelize them–many of the students want to be missionaries. I have no problem with evangelization of non-Christians in principle (though I have huge problems with the way it is often done), but I want the students to be curious about what other people believe because they are people made in God’s image whose ideas and practices are intrinsically worthy of our consideration. That can be a hard sell–but this is true of any of the liberal arts. The number of people getting a “liberal arts” education these days is much greater than the number of people really interested in the liberal arts for their own sake.

Yours truly,

Edwin Tait

 

[notself]

Edwin.

As you know, Joseph Campbell wrote excellent studies of various religions and mythologies. Here is a link you might enjoy exploring.
jcf.org/works.php?id=142

When Campbell wrote about Buddhism he spoke mainly from the perspective of Mahayana and Tibetan Buddhism. There are excellent books by other authors on Theravada Buddhism. One is What the Buddha Taught by Wapola Rahula.

A general history of Buddhism that is easy to read for students is Buddha by Karen Armstrong. She emphasizes the Pali Cannon because she is trying to write a biography of the Buddha from the earliest sources available. She goes into the philosophic schools in existence at the time of the Buddha so it might tie into a good overview. She also talks quite a bit about the Axial Age. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_Age Perhaps you can use this theory to tie things together.

You can check out both Armstrong’s and Rahula’s books on Amazon and read the customer reviews to get a feel for each book’s strengths and weaknesses.