Buddist on Catholic answers?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Timi_Celcer
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
rossum said:
Here is my understanding of the Christian concept of universal justice:

Action: steal $100. Consequence: an eternity in heaven or an eternity in hell, depending.

Action: murder one person. Consequence: an eternity in heaven or an eternity in hell, depending.

Action: murder 1,000 people. Consequence: an eternity in heaven or an eternity in hell, depending.

In these cases, “depending” varies between Christian denominations, and includes things like confession, repentance, faith in Jesus, predestination, baptism and others.

Please indicate where I have erred.

rossum
Click to expand...
The only other thing I have to add to your post is about the above highlighted paragraph. As I’m sure you are aware The Christian Church is the body of CHrist and protected from Error by the Holy Spirit. On Earth it is lead by the Vicar of Christ Our Pope, Currently know as Pope Francis. He was preceded by all the other popes all the way back to the first Pope… Peter! All the other CHristian demnominations are sects of the one true Holy Apotolic Church. As they are not in Communion with the “Church” they do not have the complete revealed truth of Christ because they severed the relationship with His Body the do not have the assurance of the Holy Spirit to lead them and protect them in truth. Because of this these other denoms do not neccesarily know the truth about justification and as such can not be linked to the Christian Churches understanding of how justification truly works. In a nut shell there opininon on "things like confession, repentance, faith in Jesus, predestination, baptism and others." holds no weight unless they are in line with the teaching of The One Holy and Apostolic Church.

Peace!👍
 
ProdigalSun said:
If you could call it an error it would be your child like understanding of the relationship between Sin, Repentance and forgiveness. If you would like to take some time to learn the truth about these things with an open heart I do not see why the Holy Spirit would not hellp you to understand the Love of Christ for us and why he choose to become man and Die for our sins so that we may live with him in heaven. Christ loves all of us and wishes for all us to join him. It is up to us to say yes to him. He will do nothing without our consent.
Click to expand...
As far as I can see, that is all covered by my “depending”. You are merely pointing out some of the things that the result of various actions depends on, according to Christianity.

rossum
 
rossum said:
As far as I can see, that is all covered by my “depending”. You are merely pointing out some of the things that the result of various actions depends on, according to Christianity.

rossum
Click to expand...
Yes, like I said “A child like understanding”👍
 
i know many children who have a far better understanding of sin, repentance and forgiveness than any buddhist i have ever encountered in person or in writing.
 
lokadotir,

the buddhists here have declared they do not believe in sin and without sin there is no need of repentance or forgiveness.

buddhism is of a save yourself kind of system, although, since it denies the existence of sin there is not really any concept of either salvation of saving in buddhism.

on the other, hand i know of thousands, probably millions, of children who are a regular basis acknowledge their sins, repent and are forgiven. these children know exactly what they are doing.

so, if it is important for you to remark about this being “hitting below the belt” so be it, but i clearly disagree. it is a simple statement of fact and statingthe truth cannot rightly be called hitting below the belt in the most commonly accepted meaning of the phrase.
 
eddie_too said:
the buddhists here have declared they do not believe in sin and without sin there is no need of repentance or forgiveness.
Click to expand...
Correct. Sin is a specifically Christian concept. Buddhism has actions and consequences. Forgiveness is a dangerous idea because it leads people to believe that they can avoid the consequences of their actions. The Emo Philips Bicycle joke applies here:

When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn’t work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me. And you know what? He did.
buddhism is of a save yourself kind of system, although, since it denies the existence of sin there is not really any concept of either salvation of saving in buddhism.
Click to expand...
In Buddhism you enlighten yourself. You are the only person who can do that. “I’m feeling hungry. Please eat a sandwich for me so I won’t feel hungry any more,” does not make a lot of sense. Nobody else can do it for you, enlightenment is something you have to do for yourself.

rossum
 
eddie_too said:
i know many children who have a far better understanding of sin, repentance and forgiveness than any buddhist i have ever encountered in person or in writing.
Click to expand...
… and probably riddled with guilt too 🙂
 
ProdigalSun said:
Reincarnation is illogical for one there is no proof of it happening ever.
Click to expand...
This is no proof that there is no reincarnation. But I did laugh anyway.
ProdigalSun said:
Reincarnation does not exsist. This is from yur belief not mine.
Click to expand...
So why do you keep bringing it up all the time?

Yeah for thats very logical to bestow sorrow, grief, pain and death on his creations when he according to you is so full of love for the same? How do you explain that please? Logically?
ProdigalSun said:
The Physical world is very logical and understandable where would we be witout it?
Click to expand...
That is not an answer to my question. Please try again.

/Victor
 
ProdigalSun said:
Grym;11765754:
Changed my imnd on what? The fact that our soul desires the Lord and until we are with him in heaven we will always long for him… I didn’t konw that was a buddist idea.

The Church teaches that all world religions including atheism and Buddism can have some truth even if that truth is incomplete. For instance Buddism is correct that people seek things to satify and sulfil there lives with materials. This is a very basic observation that most grade 3’s can grasp. Where you go off the rails is what you think actually fills this longing. You think nothing fills it but the church teaches that only when we are with God that are hearts will be at peace!👍
Click to expand...
I changed your mind on that the world is full of people that are unsatisfied. You did not believe that some posts ago. Remember?

No need to thank me. You are welcome. 😉

/Victor
Click to expand...
 
eddie_too said:
natural religions and man-made religions are necessarily incomplete and contain errors.
Click to expand...
This shows that you lack understaning about Buddhism. This entire thread just goes to show that nomatter how you try there is no error to be found in the Dhamma!

So lets get back to the real business of this thread. Which is explaining why the Dhamma is more logical that christianity from a personal point of view.

/Victor
 
Hello,
I am new to this forum and do not have much to contribute to the discussion, being neither a member of the Church nor a proper Buddhist. However, I believe I have acquired a passing knowledge of Buddhism for familial reasons, so I thought I would chime in.
In a nutshell, Catholics should be aware that the Buddhism represented on this thread is a very Western Buddhism. This doesn’t mean it isn’t valuable or interesting, but it is quite distinct from the religion practiced in Japan, China, Thailand, or wherever. Most Buddhists in Asian countries, for instance, would be quite surprised to hear that their religion denies the existence of a soul!
Westerners who learn about Buddhism tend to feel they are rejecting the theistic religion of their homeland, and they often focus on those aspects of Buddhism that differ most from their native religion. Thus, Western Buddhists are quick to point out that their religion does not have a supreme god, or a concept of soul or sin. There is some truth to each of those points, but the opposite case could be made just as easily—that is, that Buddhism generally does include a supreme being and a soul, etc.
I don’t mean to attack any of the other posters, who seem extremely intelligent and sincere. I only want to point out that “Buddhism” includes attitudes and viewpoints very different from many that have been articulated here.

Cheers.
 
Venicejazz said:
Hello,

Thus, Western Buddhists are quick to point out that their religion does not have a supreme god, or a concept of soul or sin. There is some truth to each of those points, but the opposite case could be made just as easily—that is, that Buddhism generally does include a supreme being and a soul, etc.
I don’t mean to attack any of the other posters, who seem extremely intelligent and sincere. I only want to point out that “Buddhism” includes attitudes and viewpoints very different from many that have been articulated here.

Cheers.
Click to expand...
Very good thoughts expressed here. Much of the embrace of Buddhism by westerners is an effort to find truths inhibited by their ancestral religion and its theological dogmas. There is an almost “anti-religion” appeal on some level, yet one which allows people the right to breath, as it were.

One of the most compelling reasons to believe that the Buddha did in fact express a belief in God comes from the following:

Udana (v.81) in the Khuddaka Nikaya:

“There is, O monks, an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed. Were there not, O monks, this Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, there would be no escape from the world of the born, originated, created, formed. Since, O monks, there is an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, therefore is there an escape from the born, originated, created, formed.”

To me, this signifies not only God, but the existence of an afterlife beyond the mortality of the body, which one can surely describe as the soul, in western terminology.
 
daler said:
One of the most compelling reasons to believe that the Buddha did in fact express a belief in God comes from the following:

Udana (v.81) in the Khuddaka Nikaya:

“There is, O monks, an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed. Were there not, O monks, this Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, there would be no escape from the world of the born, originated, created, formed. Since, O monks, there is an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, therefore is there an escape from the born, originated, created, formed.”
Click to expand...
First a minor point, this is from Udana 8.3, not Udana 8.1. The major point is that the unborn etc. is a description of nirvana, not of God.

rossum
 
Venicejazz said:
In a nutshell, Catholics should be aware that the Buddhism represented on this thread is a very Western Buddhism. This doesn’t mean it isn’t valuable or interesting, but it is quite distinct from the religion practiced in Japan, China, Thailand, or wherever.
Click to expand...
I would rather say that the Buddhism practiced as a religion is quite distinct from the path to nibbana. This is a distinction that is very clear in Asia but not in the West. It is the distinction between the life of recluses (on the path to nibbana) and that of lay people( religious buddhism). In the west these concepts are very mixed up. I am not saying that either view is better that the other. Just that there is a distinction between west and east in this.

Both paths are sanctioned by the Dhamma in the sutta of The Great Forty. I.e.

For lay people
*
“And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? ‘There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions (Sin). There is this world & the next world( Heaven ). There is mother & father (respect for them as the foundation of society etc). There are spontaneously reborn beings( Gods and Jesus resurrection) ; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.’ (Prophets) This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.”*

The Corresponding verse for recluses does not mention Sin, Heaven, gods.
“And what is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view[1] in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.”*
Venicejazz said:
Most Buddhists in Asian countries, for instance, would be quite surprised to hear that their religion denies the existence of a soul!
Click to expand...
The Dhamma does not deny an existence of a soul. And I am not merely playing with word and saying that because the concept of soul is christian. Atman is the indian word for what is best described as Soul in the west. Therefore westerners (and asians too) think that Anatta or Anatman is the denial of a Soul. It is not. It is the doctrine of the self illusion. And has nothing to do with denying a soul.
Venicejazz said:
Westerners who learn about Buddhism tend to feel they are rejecting the theistic religion of their homeland, and they often focus on those aspects of Buddhism that differ most from their native religion. Thus, Western Buddhists are quick to point out that their religion does not have a supreme god, or a concept of soul or sin. There is some truth to each of those points, but the opposite case could be made just as easily—that is, that Buddhism generally does include a supreme being and a soul, etc.
Click to expand...
I agree

In the Digha Nikaya the Buddha even teaches the path to Union with God and there can not be the faintest doubt that the Buddha took for granted(not blindly but because he could see his past rebirths) reincarnation (which implies a soul) even though ***it is cristal clear in the Dhamma that belief in reincarnation nor gods is needed for reaching nibbana. ***

Just wanted to make that last line bold to discourage (yet another) jibe at buddhist reincarnation belief. Which is a totally mute argument.

/Victor
 
daler said:
One of the most compelling reasons to believe that the Buddha did in fact express a belief in God comes from the following:

Udana (v.81) in the Khuddaka Nikaya:

“There is, O monks, an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed. Were there not, O monks, this Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, there would be no escape from the world of the born, originated, created, formed. Since, O monks, there is an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, therefore is there an escape from the born, originated, created, formed.”

To me, this signifies not only God, but the existence of an afterlife beyond the mortality of the body, which one can surely describe as the soul, in western terminology.
Click to expand...
No this is as Rossum pointed out the description of Nibbana. The four brahma viharas describe God.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmavihara


  1. *]All pervading love and good will towards all beings,
    *]compassion with all beings,
    *]empathetic joy with all beings and
    *]uncorruptble peace of mind.

    And when I say all beings I do not mean just humans but all beings.

    /Victor
 
Grym said:
No this is as Rossum pointed out the description of Nibbana. The four brahma viharas describe God.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmavihara


  1. *]All pervading love and good will towards all beings,
    *]compassion with all beings,
    *]empathetic joy with all beings and
    *]uncorruptble peace of mind.

    And when I say all beings I do not mean just humans but all beings.

    /Victor
Click to expand...
  1. rossum said:
    First a minor point, this is from Udana 8.3, not Udana 8.1. The major point is that the unborn etc. is a description of nirvana, not of God.

    rossum
    Click to expand...
    Hi rossum (and Grym) 🙂

    Can you please give us your understanding as to how a person, even in a condition of nirvana, can be “uncreated” as the quote says?

    Thanks for your time dear friends 🙂

    .
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top