Buddist on Catholic answers?

[Grym]

Hi rossum (and Grym)

Can you please give us your understanding as to how a person, even in a condition of nirvana, can be “uncreated” as the quote says?

Thanks for your time dear friends

.

This is very difficult. I think rossum explain this very well in own words. Personally if you asked me this in earnest because you wanted to learn I would bang you on the head with some suttas and put you on a pillow for some time.

But I can give you a reference.

this is what is created:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Nid%C4%81nas

Nibbana is its opposite i.e. the uncreated.

There are some hints here
www.urbandharma.org/pdf/wordofbuddha.pdf‎
look for skandas and right view.

I.e. what is built or created is the self and its view of the world. The entire personal experience. Nibbana is to stop building/creating this and seeing the world as it really is.

But to understand it properly you will have to practise the path…for some time. Not so long though. I think.

You are welcome friend! And peace be with you.

/Victor

 

[Servant19]

This is very difficult. I think rossum explain this very well in own words. Personally if you asked me this in earnest because you wanted to learn I would bang you on the head with some suttas and put you on a pillow for some time.

But I can give you a reference.

this is what is created:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Nid%C4%81nas

Nibbana is its opposite i.e. the uncreated.

There are some hints here
www.urbandharma.org/pdf/wordofbuddha.pdf‎
look for skandas and right view.

I.e. what is built or created is the self and its view of the world. The entire personal experience. Nibbana is to stop building/creating this and seeing the world as it really is.

But to understand it properly you will have to practise the path…for some time. Not so long though. I think.

You are welcome friend! And peace be with you.

/Victor

Thankyou dear brother.

Plenty to study there…I’ll delve in right now.

And please don’t hold back on any sutras, I enjoy my pillow

Peace and good will to you

.

 

[rossum]

Can you please give us your understanding as to how a person, even in a condition of nirvana, can be “uncreated” as the quote says?

The first thing to realise is that all descriptions of nirvana are incorrect. They are fingers pointing at the moon, they are not the moon.

Look at the whole quote, not just a single word: “There is, monks, an unborn, an unbecome, an unmade, an unconditioned…” If you wish to escape birth then you need something unborn. Birth cannot escape birth. If you wish to escape becoming then you need an unbecome. If you wish to escape the made (=created) then you need an unmade. If you wish to escape the conditioned then you need an unconditioned. The Buddha is contrasting the world: born, become, made, conditioned with nirvana: unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned.

Nirvana is uncreated because it has no beginning in time. There is no time when nirvana does not exist.

As to people. A person is obviously caused. A person who dies is (usually) reborn with a changed set of causes.

A person who dies while in nirvana attains parinirvana. The best description of parinirvana comes from the Vimalakirtinirdesa sutra, when Vimalakirti answers Manjushri’s question:

Then the Bodhisattva Manjushri said to Vimalakirti, “We have all given our teachings, noble sir. Now, may you elucidate the teaching of the the entrance into the principle of nonduality.”

Thereupon Vimalakirti kept his silence, saying nothing at all.

The Bodhisattva Manjushri applauded Vimalakirti: “Excellent! Excellent, noble sir! This is indeed the entrance into the nonduality of the Bodhisattvas.”

– Vimalakirtinirdesa sutra, Chapter Nine

rossum

 

[Servant19]

Nirvana is uncreated because it has no beginning in time. There is no time when nirvana does not exist.

Thanks rossum

In the Baha’i Writings the “World of the Kingdom” is also a timeless Kingdom, but it is created.

It is stated that there are 3 “worlds” (although Baha’u’llah does say there are “infinite worlds of God”), the World of Creation (i.e the physical universe), the World of the Kingdom, and the World of God.

The World of God is Uncreated, Unattributable, Eternal, etc etc.

The World of the Kingdom is also Eternal, because it came about at the same moment as the word “Create” was uttered by the Creator (which, really if you think about it is eternity, since a Creator cannot be a Creator without a creation) …but the world of the Kingdom was created.

For Baha’is reaching Nirvana is reaching the pinnacle of the heights of the world of the Kingdom.

It may well be a fascinating read, even for those only interested in the philosophical reasoning addressed in this aspect of Baha’i theology.

You can read more here:

bahai-library.org/books/quest/quest.03.html

Anyway, I thought I would express a minor point of discussion, maybe…

Either way, I appreciate your and Grym’s time on this

.

 

[Grym]

And please don’t hold back on any sutras, I enjoy my pillow

.

Very well! . the pillow it is then.

This one is the start and the base. Always return to this practise from time to time or when you get lost. There are a lot of books descring anapanasati and vipanssana.
accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html

You might need this.
accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.1.11.than.html

And definately this. There are other suttas like this one. And probably many books about this.
accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.than.html.

And this one is good.
accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.015.than.html

Keep in mind that the Dhamma language is not the same as the english language. Some words and expressions have a very distinctive meaning that probably has nothing to do with the everyday use of the same word. There is no short track to understand what is what. It comes with time. It is one type of discernment needed to walk the path.

And then read everything in the suttanipatha and the dhamma pada. Several times with at least 7 months in between.

There is book “mindfullness, bliss and beyond” by Monk Brahm that is very helpful, and several by Senior monk Mahasi about sattipathana and vipassana. That are required reading (and following in practise)

An unrelated thing that you might want to keep in mind is that sutta refers to the Pali scriptures and sutra referrs to the sanscrit scriptures.

Theravada stick to the first. Mahayana acknowleadge both.

Peace.
/Victor

 

[Servant19]

Very well! . the pillow it is then.

This one is the start and the base. Always return to this practise from time to time or when you get lost. There are a lot of books descring anapanasati and vipanssana.
accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html

You might need this.
accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.1.11.than.html

And definately this. There are other suttas like this one. And probably many books about this.
accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.than.html.

And this one is good.
accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.015.than.html

Keep in mind that the Dhamma language is not the same as the english language. Some words and expressions have a very distinctive meaning that probably has nothing to do with the everyday use of the same word. There is no short track to understand what is what. It comes with time. It is one type of discernment needed to walk the path.

And then read everything in the suttanipatha and the dhamma pada. Several times with at least 7 months in between.

There is book “mindfullness, bliss and beyond” by Monk Brahm that is very helpful, and several by Senior monk Mahasi about sattipathana and vipassana. That are required reading (and following in practise)

An unrelated thing that you might want to keep in mind is that sutta refers to the Pali scriptures and sutra referrs to the sanscrit scriptures.

Theravada stick to the first. Mahayana acknowleadge both.

Peace.
/Victor

Beautiful

Thanks for these Grym, I’ll study them today. Baha’is are fasting for 19 days at the moment so plenty of time to read and learn more

.

 

[daler]

The first thing to realise is that all descriptions of nirvana are incorrect. They are fingers pointing at the moon, they are not the moon.

Look at the whole quote, not just a single word: “There is, monks, an unborn, an unbecome, an unmade, an unconditioned…”

rossum

rossum,
If, as Alan Watts pointed out, we mistake the “sign” for the destination, we crash into the sign post and fail to follow where it leads.

If I wish to go to LA, take the freeway, and plough into a sign and claim that I have been to LA, but having never taken a ride down the exit ramp, my mind may be full of words which are a source of pride to me, yet weave a net by which I am snagged and caught up in a “reality” of my own making, which is only a construct of vain imaginings.

How then does one describe the “Placeless” which words cannot depict?

Those who have attained the Sadrat ul Muntaha, the “Tree beyond which there is no passing”, know this to be the ultimate goal, reunion with the Godhead, by whatever description from whatever path of Faith we tread.

 

[Grym]

Beautiful

Thanks for these Grym, I’ll study them today. Baha’is are fasting for 19 days at the moment so plenty of time to read and learn more

.

Good luck. Ask if you get stuck.

I do not know anything about the bahai nirvana and this is not the place to bring that up so let me just clarify what the buddhist nibbana is not and what it is that is relevant not to confuse bahai faith from buddhist nibbana.

It is not a place you can get to with your soul.
It is not something you arrive at in the afterlife. It is reachable in the here and now.
Nibbana is reachable by ALL. Not just God. In fact it is easier for humans to attain nibbana than it is for God according to the suttas.

It has nothing to do with reunion with god. That is another distinct destination also reachable through the practise of the dhamma.

Metta.
Victor

 

[daler]

Good luck. Ask if you get stuck.

I do not know anything about the bahai nirvana and this is not the place to bring that up so let me just clarify what the buddhist nibbana is not and what it is that is relevant not to confuse bahai faith from buddhist nibbana.

It is not a place you can get to with your soul.
It is not something you arrive at in the afterlife. It is reachable in the here and now.
Nibbana is reachable by ALL. Not just God. In fact it is easier for humans to attain nibbana than it is for God according to the suttas.

It has nothing to do with reunion with god. That is another distinct destination also reachable through the practise of the dhamma.

Metta.
Victor

Grym,
I am much enjoying reading your posts and greatly appreciate your articulation of ideas relating to Buddhism. In my late teens and early twenties I identified myself as Buddhist, spending time with Zen, visiting Tail of the Tiger in Vermont, which was founded by Chogyam Trungpa R(name removed by moderator)oche. Later, on my path I got into the Bhagavad-Gita and attended for awhile the Denver Ashram.
But coming from a Sioux Indian Reservation in South Dakota, I also developed a deep appreciation of the ways of the Lakota people and their relationship to Wakan Tanka, the Great Spirit. Although I was raised Christian, I found all these paths part of one path which, when walked with others, enabled all to attain to what some called Nirvana at some point along the journey.
Eventually, my path encountered Baha’i, back in 1980, and truly, for me, all these paths converged. I don’t mean to say this in the wrong way, but only intend what will be conducive to unity and good-will. We are all seeking that divine “something”, and seem to have a desire to share with others bits of what we have found. Here is something which I hope is relevant to the conversation:

“O wayfarer in the path of God! Take thou thy portion of the ocean of His grace, and deprive not thyself of the things that lie hidden in its depths. Be thou of them that have partaken of its treasures. A dewdrop out of this ocean would, if shed upon all that are in the heavens and on the earth, suffice to enrich them with the bounty of God, the Almighty, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. With the hands of renunciation draw forth from its life-giving waters, and sprinkle therewith all created things, that they may be cleansed from all man-made limitations and may approach the mighty seat of God, this hallowed and resplendent Spot.” Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, cxxix

 

[Grym]

Grym,
I am much enjoying reading your posts and greatly appreciate your articulation of ideas relating to Buddhism. In my late teens and early twenties I identified myself as Buddhist, spending time with Zen, visiting Tail of the Tiger in Vermont, which was founded by Chogyam Trungpa R(name removed by moderator)oche. Later, on my path I got into the Bhagavad-Gita and attended for awhile the Denver Ashram.
But coming from a Sioux Indian Reservation in South Dakota, I also developed a deep appreciation of the ways of the Lakota people and their relationship to Wakan Tanka, the Great Spirit. Although I was raised Christian, I found all these paths part of one path which, when walked with others, enabled all to attain to what some called ***Nirvana *** at some point along the journey.
Eventually, my path encountered Baha’i, back in 1980, and truly, for me, all these paths converged. I don’t mean to say this in the wrong way, but only intend what will be conducive to unity and good-will. We are all seeking that divine “something”, and seem to have a desire to share with others bits of what we have found. Here is something which I hope is relevant to the conversation:

Dude or dudette that all very nice for you that you got it together and thank you for sharing your lifepath! But …do not take this the wrong way…

It is very nice that you enjoy my posts but it seems to me that while enjoying them you have failed to understand them. So sorry for being blunt but so far no Bahaian I have spoken to have the faintest clue to what Nibbana described in the buddhist dhamma is. You included.

I can agree to your above statement as long as the word all in it does not include me nor any Buddhists I know of and the word ***Nirvana *** is despite its obvious similarity with the buddhist word not at all the same thing as the buddhist nibbana.

Besides if you want to discuss similarities or differences between Buddhism and Bahai it would be better to start a new thread instead of hogging an unrelated one? Even better to try newbuddhist.com or dhammawheel.com. Just pm me and I will gladly join any thread you start.

Peace out and dont be mad now.
/Victor

 

[daler]

It is very nice that you enjoy my posts but it seems to me that while enjoying them you have failed to understand them. So sorry for being blunt but so far no Bahaian I have spoken to have the faintest clue to what Nibbana described in the buddhist dhamma is. You included.

Peace out and dont be mad now.
/Victor

Grym,
. No offense taken at all, and very happy that you are clarifying for me about Nibbana. I guess my thoughts are that we are all coming from nature, organically, and that our spiritual reality has a natural unfoldment as well, which is not restricted to any particular group or religion, nor restrictive of, as in excluding.
. What I think I tried to say is that, if I may use the example of my Lakota friends, within their own culture is at least some aspect of the same end, or goal. My thoughts about the Buddha is that He appeared in the backdrop of Hindu multiplication of gods and deity idolatry, so to speak, and offered a Way out of the whole mental mess, with prescriptions for meditation and quieting the mind and ceasing the chatter.
. Sorry if I have offended you by entering into the dialogue you have got going here. I was somewhat interested in following the Buddhist/Catholic interaction. It is the commonality of spirit that beckons and not the nit-picking of differences or the superiority complex certain individuals appear laden with. I didn’t get any of that sense from your comments.
. Thank you for your reply.
.

 

[Grym]

. Sorry if I have offended you by entering into the dialogue you have got going here. I was somewhat interested in following the Buddhist/Catholic interaction. It is the commonality of spirit that beckons and not the nit-picking of differences or the superiority complex certain individuals appear laden with. I didn’t get any of that sense from your comments.
. Thank you for your reply.
.

No offence taken. The subject and your approach are very interesting. And I would love a discussion. Had a similar exchange with a christian on another sote and it turned out he knew precisely what nibbana was to my best knowleadge. Just have not found the time to start a topic yet.

 

[daler]

No offence taken. The subject and your approach are very interesting. And I would love a discussion. Had a similar exchange with a christian on another sote and it turned out he knew precisely what nibbana was to my best knowleadge. Just have not found the time to start a topic yet.

Grym,
. So happy to see your kind reply. The increasingly great needs of humanity require proactive interest and understanding of the beliefs people hold, and why. I belonged to an inter-faith council some years ago, and I tell you, I sort of thrive on the diversity and the beautiful reverence evinced in the many facets of human expression of spirituality.

. If it isn’t throwing this discussion off-track, may I please briefly communicate a bit of my experience with my Lakota and other tribal friends, for their own ancient forms of spirituality are still practiced in some parts, despite suffering tremendous oppression for hundreds of years in an attempt to stomp them out, including under the auspices of “well-intended” Christian churches. My mother taught school at a Mission where the kids were locked up, beaten, and deprived of food in order to destroy the Indian and save the soul…

. My intention, however, is not to dwell on the past, but convey the very tangible Spirit experience particularly in the Sweat Lodge ceremonies (those held in the traditional ways and not side shows for yuppies, if you catch my drift) Much can be learned through osmosis, and when one leaves the Sweat Lodge ceremony, the only words to describe it to Christians is that one is indeed “born again”.

. So this liberation, or cleansing of the negative from the soul serves to unburden one from hell of the outside world, its artificial pressures, values, materialism, and false gods. It achieves what Christians, Muslims, Buddhists do in other ways, in my personal experience, and is as valid and real as any of them as a “Way”.

. I had always thought that in my own personal mediation the goal was to “let the dust settle”, and to do this, one must cease causing dust to arise. Our mind, separated from the natural state, becomes agitated, attached, distracted, and caught up in illusions. My understanding of nibbana involves the “ceasing” of whipping up more dust and simply allowing ourselves to be as we were naturally intended, that it is as much a natural path and process as it is a mystical experience, although indeed one can describe it as that when contrasted with the mess we are accustomed to.

. Any comments you might offer from your perspective on this to further elaborate on your own experience would be most welcome, adding insight from what you have gained through you practice of meditation and studies, please.

. Thank you every so kindly for sharing with my, brother. Peace be unto you…

 

[Venicejazz]

Thank you for your reply Victor, but I am not sure I can agree. You say there are two distinct Buddhist paths, one for lay people and one for monks. I understand that is true, at least historically, but I don’t think one is the path to nirvana and the other a “mere religion.” Furthermore, I don’t think it is relevant to my point. I feel quite certain that a priest in Japan would talk of concepts quite similar to souls and sins and likely use language that could plausibly be called theistic when speaking of the Buddha.
The only possible exception would be a priest from the Soto Zen school, which many Westerners mistakenly believe represents Buddhism as a whole, and which is, itself, probably more influenced by Western (specifically Protestant) ideas.
I do agree with your point about the difference between “not having a soul” and “the illusion of self.” Since soul is a Western concept (I would not call it a Christian one, exactly) it would not make sense to talk of Buddhism affirming or denying it. My point is that some Westerners who consider themselves Buddhist will quickly bring up the claim that “Buddhism denies the existence of a soul” without properly explaining what this means. At times, it almost seems that they like the shock value of saying that sort of thing. And of course, some do in fact deny reincarnation, insisting that our existence ends with our physical death. There are few viewpoints I would regard as specifically not-Buddhist but that is one.

 

[ProdigalSun]

ProdigalSun;11767039:

I changed your mind on that the world is full of people that are unsatisfied. You did not believe that some posts ago. Remember?

No need to thank me. You are welcome.

/Victor

Another ridiculous assumption. it seems buddu=ists are full of those!

 

[Grym]

If it isn’t throwing this discussion off-track, may I please briefly communicate a bit of my experience with my Lakota and other tribal friends, for their own ancient forms of spirituality are still practiced in some parts, despite suffering tremendous oppression for hundreds of years in an attempt to stomp them out, including under the auspices of “well-intended” Christian churches. My mother taught school at a Mission where the kids were locked up, beaten, and deprived of food in order to destroy the Indian and save the soul…

. My intention, however, is not to dwell on the past, but convey the very tangible Spirit experience particularly in the Sweat Lodge ceremonies (those held in the traditional ways and not side shows for yuppies, if you catch my drift) Much can be learned through osmosis, and when one leaves the Sweat Lodge ceremony, the only words to describe it to Christians is that one is indeed “born again”.

. So this liberation, or cleansing of the negative from the soul serves to unburden one from hell of the outside world, its artificial pressures, values, materialism, and false gods. It achieves what Christians, Muslims, Buddhists do in other ways, in my personal experience, and is as valid and real as any of them as a “Way”.

. I had always thought that in my own personal mediation the goal was to “let the dust settle”, and to do this, one must cease causing dust to arise. Our mind, separated from the natural state, becomes agitated, attached, distracted, and caught up in illusions. My understanding of nibbana involves the “ceasing” of whipping up more dust and simply allowing ourselves to be as we were naturally intended, that it is as much a natural path and process as it is a mystical experience, although indeed one can describe it as that when contrasted with the mess we are accustomed to.

. Any comments you might offer from your perspective on this to further elaborate on your own experience would be most welcome, adding insight from what you have gained through you practice of meditation and studies, please.

. Thank you every so kindly for sharing with my, brother. Peace be unto you…

You say many things I would like to ask more about… but to keep on track of this thread I will just answer your last question.

I think we both agree what a undiscussable subject is. Like nibbana and the Kindom of God? That which is uncreated. And we both agree that it is something that has to be experienced to actually know what it is? So then I guess we both know that the following description of nibbana serves very little purpose. But my own personal experience is of course not possible to convey so this will have to suffice.

Imagine two baskets. The first basket contains everything imaginable, the entire world and God and angels and demons etc. This is the basket of the created. The other basket is that which is uncreated, unmade i.e. nibbana. Now to understand our (true) perception of nibbana, in your imagination take the second basket of nibbana and place it in the first where it really belongs.

This will lead to the understanding of what we already know. Language does not suffice nor does our imagination to get the concept of nibbana.

But, as simple as it seems, if this exercise is done properly with a mind in the right condition it will give you a brief glimps into what the Anatta doctrine is all about. The World will fall away for the barest part of a second. And what is left is the unveiled reality. If you can catch that moment delicately and kindle it like you do in the beginning of a fire that moment will alight the next awarenes(name removed by moderator)ent and the next and next and finally burn your selfillusion away forever. (I am not that the forever part yet but I am working on it)

It is also a very good depiction of why the Dhamma is logical at its core. Logic and paradox in one.

Hope I made some sense?

/Victor

 

[Grym]

Thank you for your reply Victor, but I am not sure I can agree. You say there are two distinct Buddhist paths, one for lay people and one for monks. I understand that is true, at least historically, but I don’t think one is the path to nirvana and the other a “mere religion.” Furthermore, I don’t think it is relevant to my point. I feel quite certain that a priest in Japan would talk of concepts quite similar to souls and sins and likely use language that could plausibly be called theistic when speaking of the Buddha.
The only possible exception would be a priest from the Soto Zen school, which many Westerners mistakenly believe represents Buddhism as a whole, and which is, itself, probably more influenced by Western (specifically Protestant) ideas.
I do agree with your point about the difference between “not having a soul” and “the illusion of self.” Since soul is a Western concept (I would not call it a Christian one, exactly) it would not make sense to talk of Buddhism affirming or denying it. My point is that some Westerners who consider themselves Buddhist will quickly bring up the claim that “Buddhism denies the existence of a soul” without properly explaining what this means. At times, it almost seems that they like the shock value of saying that sort of thing. And of course, some do in fact deny reincarnation, insisting that our existence ends with our physical death. There are few viewpoints I would regard as specifically not-Buddhist but that is one.

I am manily speaking for Sri Lanka Theravada tradition( and probably Thailand and where ever Theravada is). There the distinction is pretty clear even today. It of course does not mean that lay people do not aspire for nibbana. Only that it is much harder to do so leading a normal life.

I agree to your conclusion about western buddhists. It is evident that they are nearly venomous about all things they consider “religious” or as some plainly say “superstitious”.

But actually belief in reincarnation is not supposed to be a requisite for attaining nibbana. I think I can whip up a sutta reference if you like?

/Victor

 

[Grym]

Grym;11777785:

Another ridiculous assumption. it seems buddu=ists are full of those!

Aaaw come on. You can do better than that. I have faith in you!:hug1:

 

[Grym]

This will lead to the understanding of what we already know. Language does not suffice nor does our imagination to get the concept of nibbana.

But, as simple as it seems, if this exercise is done properly with a mind in the right condition it will give you a brief glimps into what the Anatta doctrine is all about. The World will fall away for the barest part of a second. And what is left is the unveiled reality. If you can catch that moment delicately and kindle it like you do in the beginning of a fire that moment will alight the next awarenes(name removed by moderator)ent and the next and next and finally burn your selfillusion away forever. (I am not that the forever part yet but I am working on it)

/Victor

Mind you. The above description is not a traditional one. It is an exercise I have created myself so there are no guarantees attached and it takes a lot more practice and understanding than I have writ down here. To be sure of success, instead follow the regular path via anapanasati with a good instructor.

/Cheers

 

[daler]

I think we both agree what a undiscussable subject is…

Language does not suffice nor does our imagination to get the concept of nibbana.

The World will fall away for the barest part of a second.

Hope I made some sense?

/Victor

Thanks for the reply, and yes, words cannot contain such things. It crosses my mind to ask you about something that I have experienced a few times in meditation - an “infinite largeness” comes to mind as a description, or being eclipsed by a sort of tangible void, like a drop entering the ocean. I used to experience this sort of thing more when I was much younger, about forty years ago, but recently had the same thing happen, though not quite as deep into it.

I don’t know if you can relate to this description or if it rings true to what you are discussing or not. All I can say is that when it would happen, I would be carried about so far into it and then pull back, perhaps out of a fear of what it was or where it was taking me, as though being swallowed up by an infinity and not sure I was ready to go there. Does this make any sense?