Bullfighting: Justify Cruelty with Tradition

[spencelo]

I think it’s absolutely horrible. If you’re implying that Catholics like to justify cruelty with tradition this isn’t any sort of argument.

Correct, and my brief comment wasn’t meant to be an argument against Catholics or Catholicism. I was simply interested in where Catholics generally stood – whatever the answer, it’s an interesting fact to me.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Correct, and my brief comment wasn’t meant to be an argument against Catholics or Catholicism. I was simply interested in where Catholics generally stood – whatever the answer, it’s an interesting fact to me.

Cool.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Treating one animal well gives the right to abuse another?

Nabooru—No, of course it doesn’t. That’s not at all what I was trying to say. My point was that in large part the Portuguese and Spanish people who engage in bullfighting act ethically towards their horses. They show evidence of having a sensitive conscience towards the horses. They also consider the bulls to be noble. When trying to understand, as a non-Iberian person, what motivates the Spanish and Portuguese interest in bullfighting, I think the above (the generally ethical treatment of horses) has to be taken into account.

Once again, for probably the third time, I’m not saying that I think bullfighting is okay. Where I’m differing with Spencer is not in the question of whether bullfighting is ethical—I think ultimately the answer to that has to be “No”. Spencer believes it’s accepted because of its long tradition and because people love it, and so they’re blinded to the unethical parts of it; while I think the reasons for its acceptance are much more complex than that. If someone is going to campaign against bullfighting (as Spencer seems to be doing to a degree), disregarding or misunderstanding the cultural lens of the people who engage in it can be polarizing…which is why I think people who are actually a part of Iberian culture can best dialogue with their fellow countrymen about the morality of bullfighting.

(Sorry if I’m not being clear–I’m barely half awake.)

And yes, I know there are horrendous and abusive Iberian horsemen…as the same exists among American, British, Irish, etc. horsemen. I’ve seen too much of it firsthand right here in the US.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Perhaps other people may have a different understanding of suffering and death than we do.
Perhaps they embrace mortality and death in a way that we do not - and cannot.
Perhaps our sanitized, plastic wrapped, safe little lives are actually the most abusive?

Spencer–I think this is part of it (part of why bullfighting powerfully speaks to Iberians about something true, even though it’s also unethical in regards to the treatment of animals).

 

[spencelo]

Spencer believes it’s accepted because of its long tradition and because people love it, and so they’re blinded to the unethical parts of it; while I think the reasons for its acceptance are much more complex than that.

I’m not so sure. All the other cultural reasons – it’s art, beauty, skill, etc – can be subsumed under “love.” The only complexity issue is one of psychology: how to get people to give up what they really really love when it’s wrong? Sure, for those who love bullfighting, the practice is deeply meaningful to them on various levels, but that’s just another way of saying they really love it.

 

[ProVobis]

The reason why it is prevalent in Iberia and the lands that Spain as well as Portugal had colonized is due to the fact that bullfighting is an admiration of the bull’s fighting spirit. That is why bullfighting is not considered a sport unlike wrestling. Instead, bullfights are considered as part of Iberian culture and heritage.
I’m neutral when it comes to bullfighting, mind you.
The bullfight in itself is a very ritualized event. And contrary to American belief, the bull dies not a painful death, but a glorious one. In fact, the act of thrusting the sword into the bull is done in such a way that the bull would not die an agonizing death. If the faena (sword jab) fails to kill the bull by that stab to the aorta or heart, the matador will be booed a lot for having such lousy aim. Should the matador fail in killing the bull, it is considered dishonorable for the failing matador.
Also, the bull is honored for taking part in the bullfight. In some cases, even more so than the matadors themselves.
Just my observations on the matter.

It might be a little more fair if each bullfighter is pierced with and carries a couple of swords before he enters the arena too. Maybe that would be more honorable for the matador.

 

[Crescentinus]

Another consideration is how Iberians tend to treat the bull in a bullfight. They see the bull as a noble warrior, much like the matadors.
Just to clarify, I am doing what Meltzerboy said about understanding both sides of the debate regarding bullfighting.

 

[spencelo]

Another consideration is how Iberians tend to treat the bull in a bullfight. They see the bull as a noble warrior, much like the matadors.

Seeing bulls that way is a perfect example of rationalization. Bulls aren’t “warriors,” but slaves forced to fight in a kind of gladiator ring - all for the purpose of crowd entertainment. Bulls aren’t fighting for any “noble” purpose beyond entertainment. A “noble warrior,” at a minimum, is someone who voluntarily puts his or her life on the line out of a sense of duty.

 

[Crescentinus]

Seeing bulls that way is a perfect example of rationalization. Bulls aren’t “warriors,” but slaves forced to fight in a kind of gladiator ring - all for the purpose of crowd entertainment. Bulls aren’t fighting for any “noble” purpose beyond entertainment. A “noble warrior,” at a minimum, is someone who voluntarily puts his or her life on the line out of a sense of duty.

I can say the same about some of the arguments put forth in opposing the practice of bullfighting. And yes, I’ve been in those debates.
Also, your idea of slavery does not make sense. If anything, humans enslave other humans, not humans enslaving animals. I swear, the idea of animals being treated better than human beings is hardly a good idea. It’s also what turns me off from veganism.
Now, I am still learning more about Iberian culture, but they have a different view on the bull in bullfighting than you. It is best to listen to their side.

 

[spencelo]

I can say the same about some of the arguments put forth in opposing the practice of bullfighting.

I highly doubt that, but I’d be interested to hear what could be said on the opposition’s behalf.
Crescentinus;9810609:

Also, your idea of slavery does not make sense. If anything, humans enslave other humans, not humans enslaving animals.

It makes perfect sense. When humans are enslaved and made to be chattel property, the charge is that they are being treated “like animals.” Animals are often treated “like animals” - that is, cruelly and brutally. But if you don’t like the word “slavery,” the underlying concept still holds: bulls are ***forced ***to fight for purposes of entertainment, which is far closer to the concept of “slavery” than “noble warrior.”

I swear, the idea of animals being treated better than human beings is hardly a good idea.

Better treatment than humans? That is definitely not what the animal liberation movement stands for, nor is that what the abolition of bullfighting is all about. Stopping bullfights would hardly mean that bulls are treated “better than human beings.”

It’s also what turns me off from veganism.

Then I suggest you have severe misunderstanding of veganism, because again, the animal rights/liberation philosophy is that animals and humans are equal in important senses – not that one is better than the other.

Now, I am still learning more about Iberian culture, but they have a different view on the bull in bullfighting than you. It is best to listen to their side.

I’m always willing to listen to the other side, which is precisely what I’ve been doing. The fact that I strongly disagree with the other side – and pull no punches for it – doesn’t mean I’m not listening. My ears are completely open.

 

[Crescentinus]

I highly doubt that, but I’d be interested to hear what could be said on the opposition’s behalf.

It makes perfect sense. When humans are enslaved and made to be chattel property, the charge is that they are being treated “like animals.” Animals are often treated “like animals” - that is, cruelly and brutally. But if you don’t like the word “slavery,” the underlying concept still holds: bulls are ***forced ***to fight for purposes of entertainment, which is far closer to the concept of “slavery” than “noble warrior.”

Better treatment than humans? That is definitely not what the animal liberation movement stands for, nor is that what the abolition of bullfighting is all about. Stopping bullfights would hardly mean that bulls are treated “better than human beings.”

Then I suggest you have severe misunderstanding of veganism, because again, the animal rights/liberation philosophy is that animals and humans are equal in important senses – not that one is better than the other.

I’m always willing to listen to the other side, which is precisely what I’ve been doing. The fact that I strongly disagree with the other side – and pull no punches for it – doesn’t mean I’m not listening. My ears are completely open.

In my experience, I’ve seen both sides go off with rationalizations regarding bullfighting issues. Sometimes, like with this thread, I see tons upon tons of strawmen. And like with this thread, I see derailments.

It really doesn’t. If anything, people in general treat their animals better than how nature treats the animals. And yes, this point had been belabored in your other threads. At times, to the point of sheer recklessness.

Also, it seems to me that the most familiar version of bullfighting is the Iberian version. I’ve yet to see you comment on bull-on-bull battles.

And yet that is how it does come across. Even outside of the animal liberation movement, I’ve seen people treat animals better than how they treat each other.
Oh, and I’ll continue disagreeing with that philosophy. Problem?

At least you’re listening. I’ve seen worse behavior from your side. Way worse.

 

[spencelo]

In my experience, I’ve seen both sides go off with rationalizations regarding bullfighting issues. Sometimes, like with this thread, I see tons upon tons of strawmen. And like with this thread, I see derailments.

If I committed any strawmen, I’d be grateful if you could point them out.
Crescentinus;9810714:

It really doesn’t.

Are you not familiar with the expression “treating people like animals?” That’s how slaves were treated - like animals. Hence there are many similarities between how human slaves were treated and how animals are treated: both typically involve abusive and cruel treatment and forced work. So the idea that animals are slaves isn’t an incoherent notion to accept.

If anything, people in general treat their animals better than how nature treats the animals.

This is patently false in the case of factory-farming, and it’s also irrelevant. You implied that veganism is about treating animals better than humans, which is false. In the case of bullfighting, the goal from an animal advocates perspective is abolition - that’s NOT treating bulls better than humans. I hope in your response you would at least acknowledge this error.

Also, it seems to me that the most familiar version of bullfighting is the Iberian version. I’ve yet to see you comment on bull-on-bull battles.

Is Iberian bullfighting different than Spanish-style bullfighting? I’d appreciate a link if you have it. From my research, it looks like Spanish-style is actually the most familiar type.

And yet that is how it does come across. Even outside of the animal liberation movement, I’ve seen people treat animals better than how they treat each other.
Oh, and I’ll continue disagreeing with that philosophy. Problem?

I can’t speak to how other animal advocates you’ve known represent the ideas of animal liberation/animal rights, but at the philosophical level (the major thinkers such as Peter Singer, Tom Regan, Gary Francione, etc), the claim that the ideal is to provide better treatment for animals than humans is patently false. The issue is equality, not animal superiority.

 

[Crescentinus]

If I committed any strawmen, I’d be grateful if you could point them out.

Are you not familiar with the expression “treating people like animals?” That’s how slaves were treated - like animals. Hence there are many similarities between how human slaves were treated and how animals are treated: both typically involve abusive and cruel treatment and forced work. So the idea that animals are slaves isn’t an incoherent notion to accept.

This is patently false in the case of factory-farming, and it’s also irrelevant. You implied that veganism is about treating animals better than humans, which is false. In the case of bullfighting, the goal from an animal advocates perspective is abolition - that’s NOT treating bulls better than humans. I hope in your response you would at least acknowledge this error.

Is Iberian bullfighting different than Spanish-style bullfighting? I’d appreciate a link if you have it. From my research, it looks like Spanish-style is actually the most familiar type.

I can’t speak to how other animal advocates you’ve known represent the ideas of animal liberation/animal rights, but at the philosophical level (the major thinkers such as Peter Singer, Tom Regan, Gary Francione, etc), the claim that the ideal is to provide better treatment for animals than humans is patently false. The issue is equality, not animal superiority.

I’m mostly talking about the correlation of rape and bullfighting in this thread. It is best to check the previous replies.

Yes, I am quite familiar. It’s just that, animals and humans are fundamentally different - a point which had been belabored by other posters in your other threads and I would not want to be redundant about.

And the topic IS bullfighting, not factory farming.
Even though I am neutral on bullfighting, I am pretty much against factory farming.

There are two main types of Iberian bullfighting - Spanish style and Portuguese style. Within these two main types, there are many local variants.

Can you speak for Ingrid Newkirk?

 

[spencelo]

There are two main types of Iberian bullfighting - Spanish style and Portuguese style. Within these two main types, there are many local variants.

I noted in my blogpost that there are many styles of bullfighting, but for illustrative purposes I focused on a familiar Spanish-style form. If you want me to speak to other types of bullfighting that I didn’t describe in my post, I’d be happy to. But I need to understand what they are, so a link would be helpful.

I should say, though, that I oppose all forms of bullfighting.

Can you speak for Ingrid Newkirk?

As far as I can tell, she aligns with Peter Singer (author of Animal Liberation), and I have never seen any statements she’s made that would suggest her goal is to elevate the moral status of animals above normal humans.

 

[spencelo]

Can you speak for Ingrid Newkirk?

peta.org/about/why-peta/why-animal-rights.aspx

 

[Crescentinus]

I noted in my blogpost that there are many styles of bullfighting, but for illustrative purposes I focused on a familiar Spanish-style form. If you want me to speak to other types of bullfighting that I didn’t describe in my post, I’d be happy to. But I need to understand what they are, so a link would be helpful.

I should say, though, that I oppose all forms of bullfighting.

As far as I can tell, she aligns with Peter Singer (author of Animal Liberation), and I have never seen statements she’s made that would suggest elevating the moral status of animals above normal humans.

That, is very telling. o:
I swear, you could have at least decided to describe the other forms of bullfighting, seeing as most of us here are unfamiliar with bullfighting which isn’t Spanish.

Personally, I’m still opposing Ingrid Newkirk and PETA. Asides from doing all sorts of idiotic stunts, they give your side a really bad name. I hope that you realize this.

 

[spencelo]

That, is very telling. o:
I swear, you could have at least decided to describe the other forms of bullfighting, seeing as most of us here are unfamiliar with bullfighting which isn’t Spanish.

I don’t see why that should be “telling.” Spanish-style bullfighting is actually one of the most popular forums of bullfighting, and there’s only so much I can write about in a blogpost.
Crescentinus;9810845:

Personally, I’m still opposing Ingrid Newkirk and PETA. Asides from doing all sorts of idiotic stunts, they give your side a really bad name. I hope that you realize this.

They’re masters at grabbing attention, no doubt, and they pull some questionable stunts from time to time. But people ought to give the underlying messages – the real issues – a fair hearing. After all, they’re trying to fight for the helpless, those too powerless to protest against human oppression. Dismissing their concerns on the basis of personal dislike is, I have to say, a sign of shallowness.

 

[Crescentinus]

I don’t see why that should be “telling.” Spanish-style bullfighting is actually one of the most popular forums of bullfighting, and there’s only so much I can write about in a blogpost.

They’re masters at grabbing attention, no doubt, and they pull some questionable stunts from time to time. But people ought to give the underlying messages – the real issues – a fair hearing. After all, they’re trying to fight for the helpless, those too powerless to protest against human oppression. Dismissing their concerns on the basis of personal dislike is, I have to say, a sign of shallowness.

It is telling that you had focused on the Spanish-style as it is the most popular.

And yet PETA just doesn’t cut it. They had become the flag-bearers on your side in a way. How? They grab more attention than the Animal Liberation Front.

 

[spencelo]

It is telling that you had focused on the Spanish-style as it is the most popular.

What’s “telling” about it? What do you think that “tells” you?

And yet PETA just doesn’t cut it. They had become the flag-bearers on your side in a way. How? They grab more attention than the Animal Liberation Front.

Again, my point is that people should try to see past the stunts and look at the underlying issues that motivate them. Dismissing PETA on the basis of their stunts is a poor excuse for not confronting the genuine concerns about animal exploitation.

 

[Crescentinus]

What’s “telling” about it? What do you think that “tells” you?

Again, my point is that people should try to see past the stunts and look at the underlying issues that motivate them. Dismissing PETA on the basis of their stunts is a poor excuse for not confronting the genuine concerns about animal exploitation.

It tells me that you focus more into Spanish-style bullfighting.

And this, along with your other posts, is the basis for me suspecting that you want to convert people into veganism.
I want you to please prove me wrong.
The problem with PETA is that they are too alarmist. I understand their concerns and all, but I’m not buying it partly due to overuse of alarmism.