Bullying and Gossip at Church

[Joy2day]

Hmmm. “Bend over backwards” is an ironic choice of words…explain that to me. What mental picture made that an ironic choice of words? Would you care to share that with us?

Maybe it is because I live in an archdiocese that had to declare bankruptcy over a very very few priests whose public violations of appropriate behavior with children, young people, and vulnerable women weren’t taken seriously enough, but I don’t find this topic the least bit funny. I don’t think our Archbishop or Vicar of Clergy would, either. That money was paid out because of members of the faithful who are trying to heal from violations of their persons by priests!! This wasn’t about wrecking a building, it was putting a wrecking ball through a soul!! There was a day when there may have been the excuse that no one knew better, *but those days are surely over! *No diocese should have to repeat the mistakes made in ours. This is serious stuff, and it deserves to be treated as such.

I think I’ve made my point. If the OP won’t hear it, oh well. If she gets it, good, and if she doesn’t, she won’t be won over by more words. There’s no good to be done by tossing pearls before swine.

I hope after some time, you will be able to calm down and feel better - camomile tea… This is obviously a big issue for you… There are women who have become involved with priests - priests who did leave the priesthood and then married the women. They left most likely not because of the women - but because their situation in the priesthood didn’t suit them. The women were possibly ‘sloppy seconds’ - but in the end all ended up very happy, apparently. The women were older than 19, but then some women have married at 19. Celibacy and the priesthood doesn’t suit everyone - and everyone has the right to make their own decision and to struggle with that before making it. Personally, I can’t see how an adult woman can claim damages in court from a consentual relationship with a priest - or how such a relationship can affect children…? I do know that some women have tried - possibly when the relationship did not end in marriage - but that is the way it goes if one gets involved with someone ‘already taken’.

 

[EasterJoy]

I hope after some time, you will be able to calm down and feel better - camomile tea… This is obviously a big issue for you… There are women who have become involved with priests - priests who did leave the priesthood and then married the women. They left most likely not because of the women - but because their situation in the priesthood didn’t suit them. The women were possibly ‘sloppy seconds’ - but in the end all ended up very happy, apparently. The women were older than 19, but then some women have married at 19. Celibacy and the priesthood doesn’t suit everyone - and everyone has the right to make their own decision and to struggle with that before making it. Personally, I can’t see how an adult woman can claim damages in court from a consentual relationship with a priest - or how such a relationship can affect children…? I do know that some women have tried - possibly when the relationship did not end in marriage - but that is the way it goes if one gets involved with someone ‘already taken’.

Are you kidding? We are not talking about women that a priest picked up at a bar. We are talking about a woman that the priest picked up in the sacristy. In this case, an altar server!!! And what if he were her confessor, or counseled her through a divorce? Can an adult woman sue her psychotherapist when they wind up having an affair? YES!! Why? Because by having an affair with her, he has abused a position of trust. If she doesn’t sue him, he’ll still lose his license if his behavior becomes known to the licensing board. It is absolutely inappropriate.

If you have not been in an Archdiocese that went through bankruptcy, if you have not read the files of those few priests who had offended and in the process read in shock about priests you thought you knew, if you haven’t known innocent priests who said they didn’t want to wear their Roman collar when going through an airport because of the abuse they suffered from total strangers, then no, I don’t suppose you can understand why I consider this a “big issue”. I have known a least two priests who left the priesthood to marry…this is not about them!! This is about priests who abuse their position with the faithful. Those are different things. The behavior the OP described is not the stuff of a budding romance. It is grooming behavior, and behavior that the perpetrator wants to keep hidden from his superior and the rest of the parish. There is a reason for that.

How can it affect children? Do you think that a priest who cops liberties with grown women poses no threat to children? Well, I did, too, but since I’ve actually read the files that the Archdiocese of Portland was forced to make public, I don’t believe that any more.

Once you know what has happened, yes, you really do get serious about trying to make sure it never happens again. I don’t mind chamomile tea, but I want the OP and others like her to be safe in their own parish church, especially in the company of the men they ought to be able to trust above all others.

 

[Joy2day]

No, not if the priest has pastoral care over the person. It is more like your psychotherapist or physician having a sexual relationship with you while you are a patient. “Consensual” has nothing to do with it; it is a violation of the trust the faithful ought to be able to have in him. So yes, if he is using his position as leverage to take liberties with vulnerable women that he’s supposed to be taking care of in a pastoral setting, and if complaints about him are ignored, absolutely the Church can be sued.

This perfectly illustrates the issue. If he were not her priest, she would not be “confused”. If he were another man in her parish acting like that, she’d tell him to cut it out! Because he has pastoral care over her, though, and is known to have moral authority, his behavior confuses her instead of outraging her. He’s using his position for leverage to take liberties, and he’s taking advantage of her youth and trust of priests. I do not fault her at all for this, but she really needs to let the pastor know what happened. It will be very hard, of course, because of course she likes this priest and of course he does a lot of good and has been friends with her, but that is what someone abusing their position banks on–that their victims will have enough reasons to hide their misbehavior that they’ll get away with it, or that their victims will believe “I’m special” and not tell or that “good” people will not believe gossip about a priest.

That is the other thing…she should not assume that this happened because of something she did or that she is the only one. That is not a safe assumption, especially not if she’s new to the parish and has no one to ask about him. If she keeps her mouth shut, this priest could offend many times and have no record of what he’s done, because of course every woman is someone he’s convinced is “special”. What he did needs to be in his file, even if it is the one and only time. When you know that you’re known, that makes it a lot easier to make SURE it is the one and only time!!

Ok - so you think you know what altar girl is thinking… Personally, if a priest made such advances to me - I would let him know in no uncertain terms to ‘cut it out’. It wouldn’t matter that he was a priest or anyone in a position of authority. I would recognise the bad behaviour for what it was - regardless of who was doing it. I think you should give women a little more credit. Altar girl is perfectly able to tell him such and to draw the line.

 

[SuperLuigi]

I think joy2day has a point here: If you’re that worried about it, clearly something is wrong. Yes, we know about the other person reporting it, but this has become quite a thread over a kiss, however common in the UK.

What bothers me the most is that you are 19 and some of your recent posting strikes me as a little naive.

It’s best to avoid these types of contact with clergy.

Peace be with you.

 

[SuperLuigi]

The issue of priests & women, from where i am from, is only seen as a threat to them leaving the priesthood. Basically the situation is consentual, so its up to the judgement of the individuals involved. I am not aware that becoming involved with a priest is any different from becoming involved with any married man. Stupid - yes, but a case for legal action & awarding of damages? =not really!

With the current persecution of the Church in the West. don’t be too eager to discount radical possibilities.

 

[Joy2day]

Are you kidding? We are not talking about women that a priest picked up at a bar. We are talking about a woman that the priest picked up in the sacristy. In this case, an altar server!!! And what if he were her confessor, or counseled her through a divorce? Can an adult woman sue her psychotherapist when they wind up having an affair? YES!! Why? Because by having an affair with her, he has abused a position of trust. If she doesn’t sue him, he’ll still lose his license if his behavior becomes known to the licensing board. It is absolutely inappropriate.

If you have not been in an Archdiocese that went through bankruptcy, if you have not read the files of those few priests who had offended and in the process read in shock about priests you thought you knew, if you haven’t known innocent priests who said they didn’t want to wear their Roman collar when going through an airport because of the abuse they suffered from total strangers, then no, I don’t suppose you can understand why I consider this a “big issue”. I have known a least two priests who left the priesthood to marry…this is not about them!! This is about priests who abuse their position with the faithful. Those are different things. The behavior the OP described is not the stuff of a budding romance. It is grooming behavior, and behavior that the perpetrator wants to keep hidden from his superior and the rest of the parish. There is a reason for that.

How can it affect children? Do you think that a priest who cops liberties with grown women poses no threat to children? Well, I did, too, but since I’ve actually read the files that the Archdiocese of Portland was forced to make public, I don’t believe that any more.

Once you know what has happened, yes, you really do get serious about trying to make sure it never happens again. I don’t mind chamomile tea, but I want the OP and others like her to be safe in their own parish church, especially in the company of the men they ought to be able to trust above all others.

Calling it ‘grooming behaviour’ is a serious allegation that is uncalled for. You do not have evidence for that - only your very biased opinion. Altar girl is perfectly able to tell him to cut it out. Only she knows the nature of their friendship and whether he will listen to her. There are plenty more men who have left the priesthood to marry - more than 2. Maybe you should read more about those, and then you’ll be able to develop a more balanced approach to this situation.

 

[Xantippe]

“Personally, if a priest made such advances to me - I would let him know in no uncertain terms to ‘cut it out’. It wouldn’t matter that he was a priest or anyone in a position of authority. I would recognise the bad behaviour for what it was - regardless of who was doing it. I think you should give women a little more credit. Altar girl is perfectly able to tell him such and to draw the line.”

I would think that altargirl’s posts here were evidence aplenty that she isn’t up to dealing with the situation. If she’s for real, she comes off as being pretty naive, even for her age.

“Calling it ‘grooming behaviour’ is a serious allegation that is uncalled for. You do not have evidence for that - only your very biased opinion. Altar girl is perfectly able to tell him to cut it out. Only she knows the nature of their friendship and whether he will listen to her.”

I continue to boggle at the idea of a probably 30-something man (particularly one in authority) being “friends” with a 19-year-old girl.

True story: one of my cousins was until recently a Protestant minister. He and his wife had a large family, but after his wife left him and they were unable to reconcile, his church fired him (a divorced pastor being an oxymoron in that denomination). I didn’t hear the full story until recently, but my cousin met his wife when he was her youth pastor and they married when she was pretty young (her parents were horrified). That is 20 different shades of wrong, in my book.

 

[Xantippe]

When I was 19, I was involved for about half a year with a guy who was nearly twice my age (and who was inappropriate for me in a wide variety of ways, but was at least not an authority figure). He really, really wanted to marry me. Somehow I managed to break free. To this day, I am so deeply grateful that that relationship never went any further than it did and that I had the opportunity to finish my studies, see the world, meet a man closer to my own age, and that the two of us were able to grow up together on an equal footing.

My cousin’s wife (the girl who married her youth pastor) never really grew up. She had a mid-life crisis when their older kids were going off to college. She wanted to go to college, too! Not the study part of college, of course (she was not a super academic type), but the freedom and fun that she’d never experienced.

I’m sure there are many happy matches between couples with wide age disparities, but I’m totally against matches between teenage girls and men twice their age.

 

[EasterJoy]

Calling it ‘grooming behaviour’ is a serious allegation that is uncalled for. You do not have evidence for that - only your very biased opinion. Altar girl is perfectly able to tell him to cut it out. Only she knows the nature of their friendship and whether he will listen to her. There are plenty more men who have left the priesthood to marry - more than 2. Maybe you should read more about those, and then you’ll be able to develop a more balanced approach to this situation.

Oh, please. Did I ever say there were only two priests who left the priesthood? I was saying that I knew both priests who had committed offenses that wound up in court and priests who had left the priesthood to marry, and they were two totally different cases. One case is a man who cannot live within the discipline of celibacy, while the other is a man who will have the same serious dysfunctions to deal with even if he’s married. You do know that the fraction of pedophiles who marry is about the same as the general population, which is to say roughly 75%? Certainly if you’ve been on this forum you know that marriage is not a panacea for sexual dysfunctions.

I don’t know if this priest is grooming anyone, but in the context the way he is treating the OP is grooming behavior–the behavior that someone who is grooming will use in order to secretly set up a chance to commit an offense that he has good hope will never be reported. In order to protect people from predators, the Church now requires (in the US, at any rate) that all adults with anything like an official capacity in the Church strictly avoid grooming behaviors. Why? Because disallowing those takes away opportunities that predators need in order to identify the most likely victims. This is because predators do not just randomly choose someone. They “feel them out” by watching how the person responds to “just-beyond-the-borderline” behaviors. That is because they are not simply out to offend. They are out to offend and not get caught.

And no, she is not necessarily perfectly capable of telling him to cut it out. She’s trying to understand why he’s doing it…why? Because she trusts him. If she didn’t trust him, didn’t look up to him, didn’t enjoy the special nature of their friendship, sure, she’d just tell him to cut it out. That is not the situation.

Finally, however, the reason she needs to tell his superior is that most of the time when predators try this stuff, they do not get an encouraging response. Do they stop trying it? Yes–with that target. But if that target does not ever mention the incident to anyone, his superior does not know that this fellow has a pattern. If she does mention it, and it just was a misunderstanding, then fine, he’ll know not to do that again. But if he’s got issues, he probably won’t be able to stop. His problem will be identified sooner if people he approaches inappropriately tell what he did.

 

[WingsOfEagles]

When I was 19, I was involved for about half a year with a guy who was nearly twice my age (and who was inappropriate for me in a wide variety of ways, but was at least not an authority figure). He really, really wanted to marry me. Somehow I managed to break free. To this day, I am so deeply grateful that that relationship never went any further than it did and that I had the opportunity to finish my studies, see the world, meet a man closer to my own age, and that the two of us were able to grow up together on an equal footing.

My cousin’s wife (the girl who married her youth pastor) never really grew up. She had a mid-life crisis when their older kids were going off to college. She wanted to go to college, too! Not the study part of college, of course (she was not a super academic type), but the freedom and fun that she’d never experienced.

I’m sure there are many happy matches between couples with wide age disparities, but I’m totally against matches between teenage girls and men twice their age.

I tend to agree. I think the key to a big age gap working out is for the younger spouse to have had a chance to be an adult for a bit first. For example, someone who has gotten a degree and been living on their own for a while would probably be more ready to settle down. Therefore, 25 and 45 might not be a problem with the right two people. However, when those same two people are 19 and 39, it is almost unfair of the older person to not allow the younger person to figure him/herself out first.

 

[john78]

altergirl no longer responds, thread is now totally gone to bickering back and forth, but hey at least everyone is staying busy.

 

[EasterJoy]

altergirl no longer responds, thread is now totally gone to bickering back and forth, but hey at least everyone is staying busy.

Let’s say she is sadly not in a unique situation. Not common, by any means, but not nearly as unheard of as it ought to be…which is totally unheard of, actually.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

altergirl no longer responds, thread is now totally gone to bickering back and forth, but hey at least everyone is staying busy.

I just scrolled through this thread, and the OP has deserted it since early on. Either she’s trolling the forum, she’s being preyed upon by this priest, or she’s preying upon the priest.

If this were a real situation, there’s a problem with the priest. He should NOT be greeting the OP with hugs and kisses, unless she’s his sister or mother. That’s it. I don’t care how friendly their culture is. She said the priest only greets her in this manner, but that physical affection is the norm in their culture. Obviously if this situation is true, the priest would be reserving a type of physical affection for her that he does not show to others in the parish.

That’s just wrong, all around.

That’s if the situation even exists.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Here is her previous post about this relationship:
*
Hello there!

I am comepletely new to this forum, so please forgive me if I have posted this query in the wrong section.

To put it simply, these past few days have left me somewhat confused about my priest (a very good friend of mine)'s behaviour towards me, as I am currently at university and my friend is quite a few years older than me. In the past couple of weeks we have enjoyed attending a few events together in the evenings outside regular Mass times, and he has regularly reiterated that he’d be put under ‘rigorous’ questioning by the other priest’s he lives with if they discovered he was out with me, and so I assume he is not telling them.
As I have come to know him over the year, and seen how he greets others both at Mass and in public, I felt a bit surprised (but in someways, favoured) when the other night, as we were saying farewell after an event we’d been to, he suddenly pulled me close and kissed me deeply on the cheek. This was followed by prolonged staring at one another before he let my hand go. Now as I’ve said, I have never seen or heard of him doing this to any other women, so you can understand why I thought it was very unusual. Furthermore, no one else was or near us at the time.
However, I have seen him once since then at mass, and all he did was just vaguely acknowledged my presence and then behave indifferently towards me for the entire evening. Yet again, I watched him say goodbye to all of the parishioners as they were leaving after mass, and he never did more than shake their hands or pat them on the shoulder. Yet when I came to him, he repeated the same manourve of taking my hand in his and gazing at me for a prolonged time, but did not kiss me on the cheek because they’re were other people around.
So basically, my question is, why is he treating me differently to everyone else? Why does he keep saying that his time alone with me would be judged if he was discovered, yet he continues to want my company? And why did he greet me in the unprecendented way he did the other night? Please help! *

From this thread.

A change in tone from this new thread, no?

 

[paperwight66]

Here is her previous post about this relationship:
*
Hello there!

I am comepletely new to this forum, so please forgive me if I have posted this query in the wrong section.

To put it simply, these past few days have left me somewhat confused about my priest (a very good friend of mine)'s behaviour towards me, as I am currently at university and my friend is quite a few years older than me. In the past couple of weeks we have enjoyed attending a few events together in the evenings outside regular Mass times, and he has regularly reiterated that he’d be put under ‘rigorous’ questioning by the other priest’s he lives with if they discovered he was out with me, and so I assume he is not telling them.
As I have come to know him over the year, and seen how he greets others both at Mass and in public, I felt a bit surprised (but in someways, favoured) when the other night, as we were saying farewell after an event we’d been to, he suddenly pulled me close and kissed me deeply on the cheek. This was followed by prolonged staring at one another before he let my hand go. Now as I’ve said, I have never seen or heard of him doing this to any other women, so you can understand why I thought it was very unusual. Furthermore, no one else was or near us at the time.
However, I have seen him once since then at mass, and all he did was just vaguely acknowledged my presence and then behave indifferently towards me for the entire evening. Yet again, I watched him say goodbye to all of the parishioners as they were leaving after mass, and he never did more than shake their hands or pat them on the shoulder. Yet when I came to him, he repeated the same manourve of taking my hand in his and gazing at me for a prolonged time, but did not kiss me on the cheek because they’re were other people around.
So basically, my question is, why is he treating me differently to everyone else? Why does he keep saying that his time alone with me would be judged if he was discovered, yet he continues to want my company? And why did he greet me in the unprecendented way he did the other night? Please help! *

From this thread.

A change in tone from this new thread, no?

Well exactly. One minute the priest is puzzling her because he is treating her differently to the other women, the next she is saying that it is quite normal for priests in the UK to kiss everyone. So which is it?

And no, it ISN’Tnormal for a priest to kiss everyone here in the UK. .And certainly not a young woman.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Well exactly. One minute the priest is puzzling her because he is treating her differently to the other women, the next she is saying that it is quite normal for priests in the UK to kiss every one. So which is it?

And no, it ISN’T normal for a priest to kiss everyone in the UK. .And certainly not a young woman.

Yeah, that “more affectionate” stuff isn’t normal in England, unless she is talking about some ethnic community, and even then, that type of expression would be among close friends or relations, not the parish priest. We do “bise” with my in-laws but that’s as far as I would ever take it, most English I have met don’t even shake hands upon meeting! (or, maybe they just don’t want to have physical contact with an American! Ha!)

 

[LSK]

Begging your pardon, but I have never heard a kiss on the cheek and embrace as “smooching”.

I have, and I will tell you that in light of the decades of abuse we have taken over the priest sex abuse scandals this particular man is not being very smart. Neither are you.

I am sorry your friendship has been curtailed; however, you need to refocus on your reason for being there in the first place. You are not there to make friends; rather you are there to serve Jesus Christ.

You sound like a lovely young girl and I know you probably are thinking I am being unduly harsh. I am actually more concerned with the actions of this priest. He should know better and the fact that he does not shocks me. Where has he been for the past 30 years?

 

[Debora123]

Well exactly. One minute the priest is puzzling her because he is treating her differently to the other women, the next she is saying that it is quite normal for priests in the UK to kiss everyone. So which is it?

And no, it ISN’Tnormal for a priest to kiss everyone here in the UK. .And certainly not a young woman.

Maybe she wrote the first thread when she thought something might be up, and then by the time she wrote the second one she had realized that there’s really nothing there?

 

[EasterJoy]

I just scrolled through this thread, and the OP has deserted it since early on. Either she’s trolling the forum, she’s being preyed upon by this priest, or she’s preying upon the priest.

If this were a real situation, there’s a problem with the priest. He should NOT be greeting the OP with hugs and kisses, unless she’s his sister or mother. That’s it. I don’t care how friendly their culture is. She said the priest only greets her in this manner, but that physical affection is the norm in their culture. Obviously if this situation is true, the priest would be reserving a type of physical affection for her that he does not show to others in the parish.

That’s just wrong, all around.

That’s if the situation even exists.

She may have come here with a very different idea of who was doing right by her and who was not. Not everyone you enjoy is doing right by you, and not everyone that upsets you is doing wrong by you. She has something to think about now; let’s hope she does.

I have many friends who are priests, both my own age, older, and even some younger. To a man, they treat me as a man ought to treat a woman he can never marry. They treat me as one among many friends, as one among many parishioners, and their treatment does not change depending upon who might be watching. They make a friend feel special while still treating that friend like everyone else. I’ve known one well who did not fit into that category, and it turns out that he had more to hide than I ever dreamed.

The ones who smoke cigars may not smoke them at church, but they don’t try to pretend they never smoke. The ones who like movies will tell anyone what they watch and who goes with them. Good priests don’t try to act like plaster saints, but they don’t indulge in things that they don’t even tell the other priests that they do! That is a very bad sign, indeed! A good Christian will live as a child of the light, and this is all the more true of a good priest. Besides, we have to be very wary of anyone who asks us to hide their true nature. Discretion is a good thing, but discretion from the people to whom you ought to be accountable is something else again!

 

[jmcrae]

Look - the current issue in the church is that of paedophilia - ie. priests interfering with CHILDREN (often boys, sometimes girls). That does not include 19 year old women.

Actually, yes it does, and even up to the age of 25. The scandal had (has) to do with older teenagers and young adults; not with children, even though it is still being called pedophilia.