Burning Incense before Images is Idolatrous Worship?

  • Thread starter Thread starter CivisRomanusSum
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

CivisRomanusSum

Guest
Hi!

How might one respond to the Protestant objection that our practice of incensing holy images is a form of worship and therefore, idolatrous?

There is a biblical passage where King Hezekiah destroys the bronze serpent (the one set on a pole) because the Israelites worshiped it as a pagan god by “burning incense to it.” I’ll quote it here:

“It was he (Hezekiah) who removed the high places, shattered the pillars, and cut down the sacred poles. He smashed the bronze serpent called Nehushtan which Moses had made, because up to that time the Israelites were burning incense to it.” (2 Kings 18:4)

I understand that burning incense was considered a “sacrifice” in both Jewish and pagan contexts, and therefore, it relates to the kind of worship due to God alone (latria). How is our practice of incensing images qualitatively different from idolatrous burning of incense/sacrificing to gods?

Parenthetically, is it correct to say that we do not burn incense as a religious “sacrifice” but rather use it for liturgical purposes, i.e. as aids to prayer, etc.? If so, what is a biblical basis for this?

Thanks!
 
Hi!

How might one respond to the Protestant objection that our practice of incensing holy images is a form of worship and therefore, idolatrous?

There is a biblical passage where King Hezekiah destroys the bronze serpent (the one set on a pole) because the Israelites worshiped it as a pagan god by “burning incense to it.” I’ll quote it here:

“It was he (Hezekiah) who removed the high places, shattered the pillars, and cut down the sacred poles. He smashed the bronze serpent called Nehushtan which Moses had made, because up to that time the Israelites were burning incense to it.” (2 Kings 18:4)

I understand that burning incense was considered a “sacrifice” in both Jewish and pagan contexts, and therefore, it relates to the kind of worship due to God alone (latria). How is our practice of incensing images qualitatively different from idolatrous burning of incense/sacrificing to gods?

Parenthetically, is it correct to say that we do not burn incense as a religious “sacrifice” but rather use it for liturgical purposes, i.e. as aids to prayer, etc.? If so, what is a biblical basis for this?

Thanks!
I think this is similar to lighting candles:

acatholiclife.blogspot.com/2006/03/why-do-catholics-light-prayer-candles.html

According to A Handbook of Catholic Sacramentals, by Ann Ball (Our Sunday Visitor Books), the practice of lighting candles in order to obtain some favor probably has its origins in the custom of burning lights at the tombs of the martyrs in the catacombs. The lights burned as a sign of solidarity with Christians still on earth. Because the lights continually burned as a silent vigil, they became known as vigil lights.

ewtn.com/expert/answers/candles.htm

Light stands for Christ, so the burning of candles or lamps, has naturally come to symbolize Christ in a special way (Jn 8:12). A candle must burn perpetually before the Real Presence in the Eucharist, therefore, as it did before the Presence in the Temple. It can also stand for the people, present before the Lord, even if physically absent. In the same sense burning incense rising to God can symbolize the prayers of the faithful (Rev 5:8, 8:3).

Something that is “votive” has to do with a vow. God is pleased with our vows, provided we keep them (Mt 5:33, Acts 18:18). A Catholic who lights a votive candle, makes an offering and places an intention before the Lord. The candle symbolizes their intention, it can also stand for their presence in prayer before God, and their union, as a Christian, with Christ the light of the world. The votive element is the exchange of the offering for God’s answer to their prayer.

So the practice of votive candles has very biblical roots and is very symbolic of who were are as Christians united to Christ, and of our complete dependence upon God in our need.

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/CANDLES.htm

With this background, we can appreciate the usage of votive candles. Here, as in early Christian times, we light a candle before a statue or sacred image of our Lord or of a saint. Of course, we do not honor the statue or the image itself, but the one whom that statue or image represents. The light signifies our prayer offered in faith coming into the light of God. With the light of faith, we petition our Lord in prayer, or petition the saint to pray with us and for us to the Lord. The light also shows a special reverence and our desire to remain present to the Lord in prayer even though we may depart and go about our daily business.
 
Hi!

How might one respond to the Protestant objection that our practice of incensing holy images is a form of worship and therefore, idolatrous?

There is a biblical passage where King Hezekiah destroys the bronze serpent (the one set on a pole) because the Israelites worshiped it as a pagan god by “burning incense to it.” I’ll quote it here:

“It was he (Hezekiah) who removed the high places, shattered the pillars, and cut down the sacred poles. He smashed the bronze serpent called Nehushtan which Moses had made, because up to that time the Israelites were burning incense to it.” (2 Kings 18:4)

I understand that burning incense was considered a “sacrifice” in both Jewish and pagan contexts, and therefore, it relates to the kind of worship due to God alone (latria). How is our practice of incensing images qualitatively different from idolatrous burning of incense/sacrificing to gods?

Parenthetically, is it correct to say that we do not burn incense as a religious “sacrifice” but rather use it for liturgical purposes, i.e. as aids to prayer, etc.? If so, what is a biblical basis for this?

Thanks!
As seems common to human nature, we hear ONLY what WE want to hear.

IDOLS:

Exod.25: 18, 20 And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. [20] The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be

Num.21: 8-9 And the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.

So the BIBLE gives two examples of GOD commanding Moses to build IDOLS.

So 2 points need to be made here
  1. It is NOT the object “idol”] that is the determining factor in GOD’s View; it is rather the INTENT & use of that object.
ANYTHING leading a Soul towards God = Good
EVERYTHING actually competing with GOD - BAD!


The use of incense by Us Catholics is based on the OT Tradition of God’s CHOSEN people Exo. 6:7, offering BURNT offering up to God, A Practice STILL in effect at the the of Jesus.

Luke 2:24
And to offer a sacrifice, according as it is written in the law of the Lord, a pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons:

This practice is symbolically the same a Votive-candles.

The SMOKE of each ascends to GOD,

Symbolizes our PRAYERS ascending to God.

My friend, I hope this clarifies the matter for you?

To assume or presume that EVERYTHNG HAS TO BE IN THE BIBLE, is itself on-biblical:D

John 20:30-31
[30] Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book.[31] But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name"

John 21:24-25
[24] This is that disciple who giveth testimony of these things, and hath written these things; and we know that his testimony is true. [25] But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

Easter Blessings,

Patrick
 
Hi!

How might one respond to the Protestant objection that our practice of incensing holy images is a form of worship and therefore, idolatrous?

There is a biblical passage where King Hezekiah destroys the bronze serpent (the one set on a pole) because the Israelites worshiped it as a pagan god by “burning incense to it.” I’ll quote it here:

“It was he (Hezekiah) who removed the high places, shattered the pillars, and cut down the sacred poles. He smashed the bronze serpent called Nehushtan which Moses had made, because up to that time the Israelites were burning incense to it.” (2 Kings 18:4)

I understand that burning incense was considered a “sacrifice” in both Jewish and pagan contexts, and therefore, it relates to the kind of worship due to God alone (latria). How is our practice of incensing images qualitatively different from idolatrous burning of incense/sacrificing to gods?

Parenthetically, is it correct to say that we do not burn incense as a religious “sacrifice” but rather use it for liturgical purposes, i.e. as aids to prayer, etc.? If so, what is a biblical basis for this?

Thanks!
Don’t forget that in those days, one of the symbols of Pharaoh’s royalty was the serpent. By burning incense to the serpent (not as Catholics do), they were worshipping the Pharoah’s image as a god. Catholics might incense a statue of a saint or icon, but these men and women are made in the image/likeness of God, and in fact in a special way are in His presence.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uraeus
 
Jesus said, “Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.” (John 7:24)

Right judgment looks at intention.

In Solomon’s Temple, two, 15-foot-tall cherubim statues stood over the Ark of the Covenant in the inner sanctuary and just outside the veil to the inner sanctuary, in the outer sanctuary, was the Altar of Incense. (Exodus 30:1-10; 1 Kings 6:20,23-28;7:48) Although there were some external similarities in the way pious Jews treated the two cherubim statues and in the way the idolatrous Jews treated the bronze serpent statue in that in both cases incense was burned near statues, the inner intentions of the pious Jews and the idolatrous Jews were completely different. The pious Jews burned incense near the cherubim statues with the intention of worshiping God; the idolatrous Jews burned incense near the bronze serpent statue with the intention of worshiping the bronze serpent statue. Similarly, although there are some external similarities in the way Catholics treat their statues and in the way idolaters treat their idols, the inner intentions of Catholics and idolaters are completely different. It is always the intention of Catholics to worship God and never their intention to worship their statues or the holy creatures (saints and angels) depicted in their statues.
 
What about a Jew objecting? I’ve had a Jew object to this before as “worship.” The fact that he is Jewish which the religion our religion came from make his objections more intimidating. I admit, sometimes I look at Christianity compared to the other Abrahamic faiths and start having doubts. Because both Jews and Muslims have a unitarian view of God and accuse Christians of polytheism. Both have also accused us of worshiping idols in the form of statues and icons. I will not leave Christianity, for I know Christ is resurrected. Still though, I just can’t help but to think these things sometimes.
 
For when the dire venom of beasts came upon theme
and they were dying from the bite of crooked serpents,
your anger endured not to the end.
But as a warning, for a short time they were terrorized,
though they had a sign
of salvation, to remind them of the precept of your law.
For the one who turned toward it was saved,
not by what was seen,
but by you, the savior of all
.
(Wisdom 16:5-7)*
 
What about a Jew objecting? I’ve had a Jew object to this before as “worship.” The fact that he is Jewish which the religion our religion came from make his objections more intimidating. I admit, sometimes I look at Christianity compared to the other Abrahamic faiths and start having doubts. Because both Jews and Muslims have a unitarian view of God and accuse Christians of polytheism. Both have also accused us of worshiping idols in the form of statues and icons. I will not leave Christianity, for I know Christ is resurrected. Still though, I just can’t help but to think these things sometimes.
Neither Jews or Muslims admit the Incarnation, in which God did fashion an image for himself (so to speak) and made himself visible to the world. Jesus declared, "If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him.”

What once was unknowable and invisible has been made real and present before us. The Incarnation provides us with excellent reasons to use icons that the Jews and the Muslims don’t have in their faiths.

Incense and candles are not offerings for a position. They sinoly represent our vows, Christ’s light, the rising of our prayers, aid us in lifting hearts by their beautiful scents, and serve as symbols of our communion with others who come to pray in the same place, reminding them that they are not alone and that others have prayers, too.
 
Neither Jews or Muslims admit the Incarnation, in which God did fashion an image for himself (so to speak) and made himself visible to the world. Jesus declared, "If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him.”

What once was unknowable and invisible has been made real and present before us. The Incarnation provides us with excellent reasons to use icons that the Jews and the Muslims don’t have in their faiths.

Incense and candles are not offerings for a position. They sinoly represent our vows, Christ’s light, the rising of our prayers, aid us in lifting hearts by their beautiful scents, and serve as symbols of our communion with others who come to pray in the same place, reminding them that they are not alone and that others have prayers, too.
Wesrock, this is an excellent post. I am reminded of this verse…

He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; (Colossians 1:15)

-Tim-
 
Don’t forget that in those days, one of the symbols of Pharaoh’s royalty was the serpent. By burning incense to the serpent (not as Catholics do), they were worshipping the Pharoah’s image as a god. Catholics might incense a statue of a saint or icon, but these men and women are made in the image/likeness of God, and in fact in a special way are in His presence.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uraeus
PLEASE RAED POST #3

It’s NOT the object, BUT the function [if you will], the intent of the maker of that object that determines it’s merits:thumbsup:
 
Neither Jews or Muslims admit the Incarnation, in which God did fashion an image for himself (so to speak) and made himself visible to the world. Jesus declared, "If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him.”

What once was unknowable and invisible has been made real and present before us. The Incarnation provides us with excellent reasons to use icons that the Jews and the Muslims don’t have in their faiths.

Incense and candles are not offerings for a position. They sinoly represent our vows, Christ’s light, the rising of our prayers, aid us in lifting hearts by their beautiful scents, and serve as symbols of our communion with others who come to pray in the same place, reminding them that they are not alone and that others have prayers, too.
👍
We are not purely spiritual creatures. All of creation belongs to God and gives him glory, not just our spiritual sentiments and experiences.
 
Hi!

How might one respond to the Protestant objection that our practice of incensing holy images is a form of worship and therefore, idolatrous?

There is a biblical passage where King Hezekiah destroys the bronze serpent (the one set on a pole) because the Israelites worshiped it as a pagan god by “burning incense to it.” I’ll quote it here:

“It was he (Hezekiah) who removed the high places, shattered the pillars, and cut down the sacred poles. He smashed the bronze serpent called Nehushtan which Moses had made, because up to that time the Israelites were burning incense to it.” (2 Kings 18:4)

I understand that burning incense was considered a “sacrifice” in both Jewish and pagan contexts, and therefore, it relates to the kind of worship due to God alone (latria). How is our practice of incensing images qualitatively different from idolatrous burning of incense/sacrificing to gods?

Parenthetically, is it correct to say that we do not burn incense as a religious “sacrifice” but rather use it for liturgical purposes, i.e. as aids to prayer, etc.? If so, what is a biblical basis for this?

Thanks!
Answer: There is NO difference. Roman Catholicism is the same ancient pagan religion that started in Babylon just after the flood. It was founded by Nimrod and his wicked witch of a wife Semiramis.

Get the AV1611 Bible and seek the truth. You will never find the truth while following the sorceries of the great whore (aka Roman Catholicism). Revelation 17 and 18.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved! It is all by grace, a free gift of God. All of our righteousness is as filthy rags. Forsake your sacraments, mass, and all of that ridiculous nonsense and just believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. May He grant you the gift of faith.

Precious Roman Catholics, wake up to this pagan satanic system you are following, and turn to the truth.
 
Answer: There is NO difference. Roman Catholicism is the same ancient pagan religion that started in Babylon just after the flood. It was founded by Nimrod and his wicked witch of a wife Semiramis.

Get the AV1611 Bible and seek the truth. You will never find the truth while following the sorceries of the great whore (aka Roman Catholicism). Revelation 17 and 18.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved! It is all by grace, a free gift of God. All of our righteousness is as filthy rags. Forsake your sacraments, mass, and all of that ridiculous nonsense and just believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. May He grant you the gift of faith.

Precious Roman Catholics, wake up to this pagan satanic system you are following, and turn to the truth.
Two things.
  1. You will never plant the seeds of truth by attacking one’s current belief system; and
  2. You do know which church issued the King James Bible, don’t you?
Methinks your time here is limited.
 
Two things.
  1. You will never plant the seeds of truth by attacking one’s current belief system; and
  2. You do know which church issued the King James Bible, don’t you?
Methinks your time here is limited.
  1. I plant the seeds of truth by speaking the truth. I am not a smooth-speaking Jesuit.
  2. Not the Catholic Church if that is what you are trying to pull off. (It was the Anglican church.)
 
PLEASE RAED POST #3

It’s NOT the object, BUT the function [if you will], the intent of the maker of that object that determines it’s merits:thumbsup:
Be careful, it is not always just the intention of the maker and person praying, it also has to be an approved way of worshiping God.

Two examples:

Leviticus 10
“Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it and laid incense on it and offered unauthorized fire before the LORD, which he had not commanded them. And fire came out from before the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD. Then Moses said to Aaron, “This is what the LORD has said: ‘Among those who are near me I will be sanctified, and before all the people I will be glorified.’” And Aaron held his peace”.

Nadab and Abihu were priests and they had a duty and a right to worship God, God had given specific instructions on how that was to be done, they of their own initiative did something God did not command. Their intention was good, they wanted to worship the true and living God, but they did it in a way that He did not command them. Right intentions do not make wrong means ok.

Second example the golden calf. Many people say that it was meant to be an image of Yahweh, not a random God but it was meant to be the true and living God, they called it, “This is your god, who brought you up out of Egypt” (Nehemiah 9:18). You could argue the intention was good- they were trying to worship YAHWEH (though considering they then engaged in a sort of orgy you could wonder how much they actually had good intentions)

Point being, they made an image of Yahweh to aid their worship, but it was a grave grave sin. Intention is not the only factor.
 
Be careful, it is not always just the intention of the maker and person praying, it also has to be an approved way of worshiping God.

Two examples:

Leviticus 10
“Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it and laid incense on it and offered unauthorized fire before the LORD, which he had not commanded them. And fire came out from before the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD. Then Moses said to Aaron, “This is what the LORD has said: ‘Among those who are near me I will be sanctified, and before all the people I will be glorified.’” And Aaron held his peace”.

Nadab and Abihu were priests and they had a duty and a right to worship God, God had given specific instructions on how that was to be done, they of their own initiative did something God did not command. Their intention was good, they wanted to worship the true and living God, but they did it in a way that He did not command them. Right intentions do not make wrong means ok.

Second example the golden calf. Many people say that it was meant to be an image of Yahweh, not a random God but it was meant to be the true and living God, they called it, “This is your god, who brought you up out of Egypt” (Nehemiah 9:18). You could argue the intention was good- they were trying to worship YAHWEH (though considering they then engaged in a sort of orgy you could wonder how much they actually had good intentions)

Point being, they made an image of Yahweh to aid their worship, but it was a grave grave sin. Intention is not the only factor.
Good point, thanks,

Patrick
 
So when Zechariah burned incense before the ark in the sanctuary, he too committed idolatry? Mind blown.LOL.
 
Be careful, it is not always just the intention of the maker and person praying, it also has to be an approved way of worshiping God.

Point being, they made an image of Yahweh to aid their worship, but it was a grave grave sin. Intention is not the only factor.
That was true under the Mosaic covenant, but Christians are under the New Testament. Christ founded a Church which has the power of binding and loosing “whatever” - i.e. anything. Unprecedented, perfect, Christ-authorized power to bind and loose. Paul forgave sins in the person of Christ, for but one example (2 Cor 2:10). “Who can forgive sins but God alone” (Mark 2:7)

Christ’s Church allows the making of sacramental images, and of incensing to sanctify them so as to honor God and aid in worship - not to be objects of worship themselves. If one’s ecclesial community lacks this absolute power, confusion then reigns regarding such issues.
 
As seems common to human nature, we hear ONLY what WE want to hear.

IDOLS:

Exod.25: 18, 20 And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. [20] The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be

Num.21: 8-9 And the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.

So the BIBLE gives two examples of GOD commanding Moses to build IDOLS.

So 2 points need to be made here
  1. It is NOT the object “idol”] that is the determining factor in GOD’s View; it is rather the INTENT & use of that object.
ANYTHING leading a Soul towards God = Good
EVERYTHING actually competing with GOD - BAD!


The use of incense by Us Catholics is based on the OT Tradition of God’s CHOSEN people Exo. 6:7, offering BURNT offering up to God, A Practice STILL in effect at the the of Jesus.

Luke 2:24
And to offer a sacrifice, according as it is written in the law of the Lord, a pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons:

This practice is symbolically the same a Votive-candles.

The SMOKE of each ascends to GOD,

Symbolizes our PRAYERS ascending to God.

My friend, I hope this clarifies the matter for you?

To assume or presume that EVERYTHNG HAS TO BE IN THE BIBLE, is itself on-biblical:D

John 20:30-31
[30] Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book.[31] But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name"

John 21:24-25
[24] This is that disciple who giveth testimony of these things, and hath written these things; and we know that his testimony is true. [25] But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

Easter Blessings,

Patrick
Hi, Patrick!

…just one clarification: Yahweh God’s command is not to make graven images (images for the purpose of worship); hence, Scriptures document the making of what we now term “Sacramentals” (images or utensils to aide/direct/facilitate the Worship of God).

Maran atha!

Angel
 
What about a Jew objecting? I’ve had a Jew object to this before as “worship.” The fact that he is Jewish which the religion our religion came from make his objections more intimidating. I admit, sometimes I look at Christianity compared to the other Abrahamic faiths and start having doubts. Because both Jews and Muslims have a unitarian view of God and accuse Christians of polytheism. Both have also accused us of worshiping idols in the form of statues and icons. I will not leave Christianity, for I know Christ is resurrected. Still though, I just can’t help but to think these things sometimes.
Hi!

Since you are in Fellowship with Christ (a Catholic Christian) would you object to the term: “cannibal?”

…if you are a Christian the Roman empire (due to their rumored practices of eating the “blood and body” of Christ–en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Christian_policies_in_the_Roman_Empire ) and the Jews thought of you are exactly that, a cannibal. It was one of the objections raised against Christ when many, if not most, of His followers left Him (St. John 6:51-66).

While it is a good ideal to reference Judaism (foundation of the Christian Faith) since we have in common the Sacred Writings, we must understand that Jesus, the Messiah, did Come to His own and they rejected Him (St. John 1:1-18). By rejecting the Immanuel (God-with-us) the Jews opened the path to the Gentiles (Romans 11:11)… it was given to them not to understand fully the Revelation of the Messiah so that the rest of the world could enter into the Fold (St. John 1:10-13).

Even Jesus’ own disciples would have had problems with, amongst other things, the “Holy Trinity” since they might also have thought,as those who claim that Christian worship is polytheistic, that there was something wrong in Christ’s Theology… but we must take into account what had been developing:
  • Yahweh God Reveals Himself as only One God (Isaiah 43:10-11)
  • The Remnant of Israel are awaiting a Messiah and they have intimate knowledge of God (St. Matthew 1 and 2; St. Luke 1 and 2)
  • Jesus, the God-with-us, becomes Incarnate, Comes to the Temple, fulfills all the prophecies, Institutes His Church, Reveals the Holy Spirit, Reveals that He and the Father are One, Sends the Holy Spirit to the Church (St. John 1 thru 21 and Acts).
Though Salvation does comes from the Jews, it came not to engulf the world in Judaism but to open Judaism to its correct form of Worship:
21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.” (St. John 4:21-24)
…and Jesus clearly understood that even the Eleven would have problems with the above revelation so even though He spent three and a half year living with them He allows for the Holy Spirit to fully unfold His Teachings:
12 I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you. (St. John 16:12-13)
So as Christ emphasized, do not be afraid!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top