Bush vs Benedict

[Trad]

thestickman:

Hmmm so Cardinal Ratzinger was speaking thru the infallibility of his office then?

See what I mean?

Supporters of the United States’ Iraq policy will not enter into a dialog about the substance of statements made by leaders of the Roman Catholic Church.

Quibble all you’d like, but one of the main editors of the very Catechism that guides our faith clarified the sections Bush’s Catholic voters refer.

You’re stuck between choosing between which to follow: the Church Christ founded or the Pentagon.

Since so few of us have been to Iraq, have fought in a war, or have had to make decisions involving applying the faith to a world crisis, it might be prudent to side with then Cardinal Ratzinger and Pope John Paul II.

Not to be rude, but I rather think they’re in a much better place to determine social and political ills than an American president.

 

[estesbob]

Trad:

You might be right. Are you willing to change your mind if the facts warrant?

We have to be careful when we make sweeping statements like yours. There might be a problem with linguistically limiting your claim to ‘unjust.’

Popes, if we take only the last century, have continued to press for peace of a kind unfamiliar to supporters of the War on Terror.

There is rather a long a history of them doing so.

Off the top of my head, in 1965 Paul VI even cried out, “War no more, war never again!”

On the immediate fate the then-looming war in Iraq, Pope John Paul II The Great said, “When war, as in these days in Iraq, threatens the fate of humanity, it is ever more urgent to proclaim, with a strong and decisive voice, that only peace is the road to follow to construct a more just and united society. Violence and arms can never resolve the problems of man.”

Do either men use the trigger word ‘unjust?’ No. However, the above statements go pretty well against your post’s import.

In an interview with an Italian news agency, then Cardinal Ratzinger stated the war “has no moral justification” and “[d]ecisions like this should be made by the community of nations, by the UN, and not by an individual power.”

Cardinal Ratzinger also said “There were not sufficient reasons to unleash a war against Iraq. To say nothing of the fact that, given the new weapons that make possible destructions that go beyond the combatant groups, today we should be asking ourselves if it is still licit to admit the very existence of a ‘just war’.”

And he made this statement many times: “the concept of preventive war does not appear in The Catechism of the Catholic Church.”

Supporters of the War on Terror, and linking Iraq to it, usually won’t argue whether JP2 and B16 were against the war. It is fairly obvious Rome’s Bishops found President Bush’s policies lacking.

Those who disagree with the pontiffs will generally make points about whether or not pontifical statements about the war are binding on lay Catholics in the United States.

Bush supporters have chosen to ignore papal warnings in favor of political allegiance.

In other words you can’t come up with a statement whether either Pope condemned this war as unjust but since you dont like Bush and dont like the war your not going to let a few inconvenient FACTS stand in the way of you beliefs!

 

[estesbob]

Trad:

See what I mean?

You’re stuck between choosing between which to follow: the Church Christ founded or the Pentagon.

No-we’re stuck between what the Popes actually said and what you would like us to beleive they said. All you have to do to end the debate is give us link to where either Pope condmened the war as unjust.

 

[Arba_Sicula]

Trad:

Bush supporters have chosen to ignore papal warnings in favor of political allegiance.

I’m impressed. This seems exactly correct. Not many right-wing Catholics would buck the Republican Party in favor of the Pope. (Though some, of course, do).

 

[Trad]

estesbob:

No-we’re stuck between what the Popes actually said and what you would like us to beleive they said. All you have to do to end the debate is give us link to where either Pope condmened the war as unjust.

Maybe you’re right. It could be that I am reading their statements incorrectly.

I sense some frustration on your part. I certainly don’t mean to be anything other than a fellow seeker of truth. It can be difficult to confront assumptions we hold so dearly, so emotionally.

I think the statements by the two men I gave go a long way in fulfilling your initial request for how the United States under Mr. Bush is and has been at odds with the papal impressions of what should’ve happened in Iraq.

Would you allow me to turn the tables?

Can you find a statement by Pope John Paul II, Benedict XVI, or Cardinal Ratzinger where they express overt support for the war?

They might wish we take good care of the people in Iraq now that we’re there, but I would like to read where either men, in whatever capacity, have endorsed Mr. Bush’s Iraq policy.

Thanks for your trouble.

 

[gilliam]

Arba Sicula:

I’m impressed. This seems exactly correct. Not many right-wing Catholics would buck the Republican Party in favor of the Pope. (Though some, of course, do).

Don’t be ridiculous. All the conservative Catholics I know are faithful to the Magistarium. That they don’t agree with opinions doesn’t make them unfaithful. I think an apology is in order here. I should point out that most of the Knights of Columbus were in favor of liberating Iraq. Are they all heretics? J

 

[estesbob]

Arba Sicula:

I’m impressed. This seems exactly correct. Not many right-wing Catholics would buck the Republican Party in favor of the Pope. (Though some, of course, do).

Other than your dislike of right wing Catholics(whatever that is) and President Bush can you provide any evidence that war supporters are bucking the teachings of the Church or the Pope??? I ask once again-post us a link to where either Pope declared the Iraq war as unjust.

 

[thestickman]

Trad:

Can you find a statement by Pope John Paul II, Benedict XVI, or Cardinal Ratzinger where they express overt support for the war?

I could be dead wrong, but my understanding is, no Pope has expressed overt support for any war since WW2. This is not surprising to me as I believe all Popes, with good reason, will do and say anything to either put off or prevent any war. Does this mean the Iraq war was unjust? Nope. Just means the Popes never ever see war as a viable option which probably explains the line in CCC 2309 which says, “The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.”

Which in the US is the Congress and the President.

 

[estesbob]

gilliam:

Don’t be ridiculous. All the conservative Catholics I know are faithful to the Magistarium. That they don’t agree with opinions doesn’t make them unfaithful. I think an apology is in order here. I should point out that most of the Knights of Columbus were in favor of liberating Iraq. Are they all heretics? J

AMEN! I wonder how many of those who claim war supporters are bucking the church aslo believe the church’s teachings on abortion, homosexuality, euthanasia , cloning and contraception are wrong? What is so sad is how many on the left ingnore the Churchs clear unequivocable teachings in the above yet claim the fact the Church has not declared the war unjust is irelevant.

 

[Robert_Bay]

WARNING

Please do not ridicule or question another poster’s faith. That is considered discourteous and impolite and against the rules. People on this thread should consider themselves warned. Repeated violations can lead to suspension or banning.

If you have any questions, please drop me a Private Message.

 

[Arba_Sicula]

gilliam:

I should point out that most of the Knights of Columbus were in favor of liberating Iraq. Are they all heretics? /QUOTE]

No one is being accused of being a heretic. (And, even if heresy was an accusation, it should be obvious that they ALL wouldn’t be heretics.) I agree with Trad that right-wing Catholics seem to place political loyalty before papal warnings. To be sure, not all do. Steve O’Brien seems to be a very orthodox Catholic who opposes the war. There are more like him on this Forum, though they are far outnumbered by the “politically loyal” Catholics.

BTW, what does membership in the KofC or even the Legion of Mary or the Third Order of St. Francis or any number of Catholic lay organizations have to do with being right about the war?

 

[Trad]

estesbob:

AMEN! I wonder how many of those who claim war supporters are bucking the church aslo believe the church’s teachings on abortion, homosexuality, euthanasia , cloning and contraception are wrong? What is so sad is how many on the left ingnore the Churchs clear unequivocable teachings in the above yet claim the fact the Church has not declared the war unjust is irelevant.

You might be right.

To ignore Church teachings is to leave the Catholic faith.

To ignore the Holy See is to leave the Catholic faith.

Holy Mother Church will always be here to welcome them back should they repent and submit to authority.

It would be nice, wouldn’t it, if all who disagree with the war were ‘leftists.’ Unfortunately, not all of us fit into to your comfy box.

 

[Robert_Bay]

Thread Closed

Reason: Lack of courtesy to other posters