But what IS worship?

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The internet is absolutely replete with anti-Catholic rhetoric; as many of you know, the most common, meme-like claims are that we are idolators who worship Mary, the saints, statues, and even Satan. Sadly, these claims are often the only things seen by younger people who are wondering about religion while online - Catholicism does not seem nearly as robust on more “hip” parts of the internet (4chan, Reddit, etc.).

The other day, I was explaining to someone how we don’t worship Mary. They said we do, pointing out that we sometimes bow or kneel before statues of her and pray to her. I responded that we ask Mary to pray for us just as they ask their friends to pray for them, and that if bowing or kneeling imply worship, then anyone who has ever sparred in a karate match or proposed to a woman is in mortal sin.

But suppose I wanted to go further in my description. What IS worship? Obviously, it’s not bowing, kneeling, or praying, though those can be part of worship. I attribute all credit, honor, and glory to God while I only venerate Mary and the saints. But how else do I define worship in a way that clearly distinguishes our dispositions toward those who have gone to heaven as opposed to the Lord?
 
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Worship in to offer sacrifice! And we only offer Sacrifice to GOD.
Back in the day people bowed all the time when they were in front of kings and princes and notorious people. The Bible is full of references of people bowing to kings. Now what they did not do is “Offer Sacrifice”.
Peace!
 
Perfect answer. Thank you. It is especially potent given our understanding of the Eucharist.
 
Here are some verses that show what I said:

Here is Isaac blessing his son Jacob believing it was Esau, his first born.

“Genesis 27:29 And may the peoples serve you, and may the tribes reverence you. May you be the lord of your brothers, and may your mother’s sons bow down before you. Whoever curses you, may he be cursed, and whoever blesses you, may he be filled with blessings.”

Here Joseph is interrogating his brothers who have not recognized him.

“Genesis 43:28 And they answered: “Your servant, our father, is safe; he is still alive.” And bowing, they reverenced him.”
They believe Joseph to be an Egyptian prince.

Also
I Kings 1:16 Bathsheba bowed herself, and she reverenced the king. And the king said to her, “What do you wish?”

And
II Kings 9:32) And Jehu lifted up his face to the window, and he said, “Who is this woman?” And two or three eunuchs bowed down before him.

These are a few examples from the Bible.
Peace!
 
Worship in the absolute sense, that is, worship reserved only for God is the Mass. The Mass is the offering of sacrifice. True worship of God involves the offering of sacrifice.

In the Catholic Faith, the Mass is offered to none but God. Now, when I have argued this with Protestants, they will usually retort that “Well, look at all the Masses in honor of Mary or the saints.” To which I say–indeed–but you will notice that they are offered in honor of, they are not offered to Mary or the saints. The Masses are offered to God alone in honor of Mary or the saints, etc.

So the Mass for Catholics—constitutes true worship of God, and the Mass is offered to none but God. As I have said to the Protestants–if you can show that we offer the actual Mass to Mary or the saints, I will leave the Catholic Faith and become atheist. Of course that always sets them off–because they cannot comprehend why I would never consider Protestantism if the Catholic Faith were shown to be false. That is another discussion.
 
Who but God can know what is in your heart? Who can know if i put Mary above God? Who can know if that person is putting money or their job above God? If this knowledge comes from our actions or inactions then aren’t we all doomed?
 
DadaBigfoot said:
What IS worship? Obviously, it’s not bowing, kneeling, or praying, though those can be part of worship.
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To my humanly flawed way of thinking, pure worship is, as you say above, not a posturing, but a way of living. We worship God best by imitating the example of the Son. Summed up; show kindness where none is expected, forgiveness where none is deserved. This is worship in the most individual sense. Corporately, we gather to express more openly a joint commitment to God.
 
The context does not suggest the offering of sacrifice in this case.

Apparently the angel took the actions of John; i.e. falling down at his feet to worship as an act of worship. Still, I know of no Catholics who fall down at the feet of any saint or Mary to worship. They may make signs of reverence, but I have never heard of a Catholic literally falling down at the feet of a statue or any other person for that matter to worship.

In verse you cite, it is made clear the intention of John was not simple reverence and respect for the angel but clear worship. That would be why the angel responded as it did.

When Catholics pray to saints or Mary, their intention is not to worship. They make signs of respect and reverence, but the context is never worship. Thus, I don’t think this verse applies to Catholic devotion.
 
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JerryZ boiled it down. Basically, there is no worship without sacrifice. We notice that those who make outrageous claims against the Catholic Church do not sacrifice, yet offer “worship services”

Do they even know what the word means?

No, they don’t.
 
There is no Temple is Jerusalem in whcih the Hebrews can offer sacrifice. Since the reformation, all protestant denominations and their innumerable spin-offs believe that Christ sacrificed Himself once for all. Therefore, many believe that they need do nothing. A certain reformer, whose name began with “L” insisted that the mass was not a sacrifice. He had his opinion, but he was flat out wrong, as were those who followed him and who split off from him.

Christ’s sacrifice is once for all - but - we do not confine that to the past, since God is in the past, present and future. We can offer the sacrifice of the mass our entire lives and God - Who is outside of time - sees: a mass. It is continual, in accord with the Prophet Malachi.

The various Orthodox Churches offer sacrifice exactly as we do, since both are the only Apostolic Churches which can trace their history in a direct line to the Apostles, then to Christ. Catholic and Orthodox used to be one, and will be one again, with prayer and patience.

So, Catholic and Orthodox.
 
aitapyh said:
Is it your understanding that no one outside of Catholicism makes sacrifice to God in this way?
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No. The other following Christian denominations do too:
  • Eastern Orthodox
  • Oriental Orthodox
  • Church of the East
  • Old Catholic communion
Plus, the following Protestants attempt to do the same thing too:
  • Anglican Communion
  • Lutherans
 
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aitapyh said:
You shouldn’t be surprised that some look at these actions and draw mistaken conclusions.
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Do you conclude these people are worshiping the kleenex box or the speaker? This pic from CAF way back…
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

I do understand i have some responsibility To make sure i am not leading those astray, but they also have some responsibility, right? I cant think of any situation where i cannot be asked about my worship before concluding wrongly about what i am worshiping or not worshiping. And if they conclude i worship something i do not after i tell them then its completely on them.

Peace!!!
 
Here’s an extended thought on the question of what is worship. I am open to your comments and opinions…

Worship is not ritual (tho’ ritual becomes an expression of worship), rather worship begins as an encounter with and a realization and affirmation of something (someONE!) who is indisputably absolute, eternally present and, at the same time, transcendentally apart and far greater than anything or anyone else who was or is or ever will be; a supreme being who exists above all reality; a being who is the cause and reason for all there is, the great “I AM.”

Our 1st response to this encounter - at least initially (and, I think, anthropologically) - is head-to-the-ground prostration. It is an instinctive human postural response. We see this posture being expressed again and again in Sacred Scripture. It is the “Fear of the Lord, the beginning of wisdom” writ physically into the body at the promptings of the soul. What follows this encounter is the stuff of ritual and liturgy which, I believe, are socially agreed upon developments in the ongoing process of worship. (This, I think, is where theology steps in because we need to find ways to discuss and express our connections with the ineffable). The never-to-be-forgotten experience is codified in many ways for the purpose of public expression because this encounter is a shared experience. All humankind can know, love and serve the Lord, because He is the Lord of all. I trust that this is true despite all doubts to the contrary. God is alive; He engages us all if we allow ourselves to be open to His presence. Out of His love and mercy, He is there for us.

We hear and express our worship through vocalizations, the “Halleluias,” the “speaking in tongues,” the public - and private - utterances of both formalized and impetuous prayer. Often the worshipper will sing praises to the divine both as an individual and in chorus with others.

Worship behavior is also made manifest in many postural expressions - in the hands-in-the air orans position, in genuflections towards the sanctuary - the place where God dwells - the site of worship; in kneeling and breast beating and hand clapping and even, in some cultures, dancing. The list of physical and vocal expressions for worship is vast and varied throughout all of humankind. But, regardless of the form worship takes, it is the soul who engages the Lord in worship by the power of the Holy Spirit. It is not what we do or say that matters so much as what we believe in our hearts and know to be true. And what is true is this: “Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” Worship is the response to this Truth.
 
Yes, I get that, and I do agree with you about overzealous Catholics. But as to that–I suppose–if I was to have to answer to God one day for my treatment of his mother----that I would rather be in trouble for giving her too much respect, than not enough.

Giving Mary too much respect and devotion–in the end is not harmful–because Mary always points the way to Christ. Devotion to Mary, however over-the-top will always lead to Christ–even if we cannot see how immediately.
 
Except that if one is going to judge Catholicism, one must judge Catholicism not by Protestant standards, but Catholic standards.

In many ways–comparing Catholicism with Protestantism is like comparing apples and oranges. Our worship, culture, thinking, prayer, everything—is not Protestant. We do not think like Protestants—because we are not Protestant.

Thus, if you want to understand Catholic actions in regards to devotion to saints–you have to judge us by Catholic standards–not Protestant standards. For Catholics, bowing, etc, those are just signs of reverence. Those are not exclusively reserved for God. The one thing that is reserved exclusively for God is the Mass. As Protestants have no conception of a Mass, they have no analagous equivalent in their Church to understand what is meant by that. They think Mass is analagous to their communion services. It is not in any way analagous–even though the prayers may be similar or even the same–as Catholics mean very different things by those words than Protestants. It is like trying to explain the third dimension to people who have a concept of only two dimensions.
 
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So, you come bursting in through the doors of a Catholic forum, both guns blazing against the Catholic Church, teaching novel theology that is no more than 100-500 years old; which does not trace back to Christ or the Apostles…

…and you are shocked that there is disagreement?

I do not question your faith or your zeal. I question the novel theology that others have taught you.
 
Seems obvious to me that is meant by that. The angel knew that John was in error by falling down to worship at its feet, and corrected him by telling him not to do that. The angel was trying to tell him that only God should be worshipped.
 
aitapyh said:
I think your missing their point of perspective. If I rob a person in front of you, I could tell you that I am not robbing this person and then give reasons as to why but I highly doubt that you would believe my reasoning if it obviously appears to you that I am robbing them.
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I think you are missing the point of worship in spirit - Jn 4:24, unless of course your apology of the robbery above is in spirt and not reality.
aitapyh said:
It all boils down to what one person justifies and others see as unjustifiable.
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No. It all boils down to whats in your heart not what others see you do.

Look at it from the other way around. If you bow down to the spirit of Jesus and I asks you what are you bowing down to and you answer Jesus and i say well i cant see this Jesus how do i know this is really who you are bowing to and you would answer i bow to His spirit. Now based on your scenario above if i cannot see this Jesus then i must conclude you are worshiping nothing because i see nothing. You would of coarse say well you worship Jesus because you SAY you do and i would either have to conclude you are crazy or take your word for it.

So, if you can bow to/worship Jesus in spirit and expect others to take your word for it, it must work the other way around also, right?

Peace!!!
 
Sorry for any offense. Over the past 13 years, I have dealt with far far too many who seek to teach 1.5 billion Catholics and Orthodox what the “truth” is.

I’m out.
 
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