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Corki
Guest
Wise move. They worked closely together and Pope Benedict was JPII’s immediate successor. The rules about waiting are there for a reason. Unless it is a clear case of martyrdom, the process should proceed normally.
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Trishie
Guest
I believe that the former Pope would have wished his cause to go through the correct process.
He would not have wished to be exempted, so it is right and proper that the current Pope has respected the process.
God bless.
He would not have wished to be exempted, so it is right and proper that the current Pope has respected the process.
God bless.
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Luigi_Daniele
Guest
I agree with you both
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CathApol
Guest
We’re actually still on a “fast-track” toward canonization. To be beatified so quickly is unusual. I realize the “demand” by the populous - but such demands should not overtake reason. I truly hope this is not happening. So, while His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI did not permit the “instant canonization” - he’s still raising some eyebrows of the skeptics in this apparent rush to beatification.
In JMJ,
Scott<<<
In JMJ,
Scott<<<
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Roselle
Guest
Pope John Paul: Santo Subito Or Not So Fast?
foxnews.com/world/2011/04/30/pope-john-paul-santo-subito-fast/?test=latestnews
foxnews.com/world/2011/04/30/pope-john-paul-santo-subito-fast/?test=latestnews
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Veridical16
Guest
This is just news trying to make hay out of nothing…
If John Paul II was fast tracked, he’d be fast tracked…
now that he’s properly going one way, they say, “hey what’s up with that?”
The rest of the article gives some fair information about some of the negative errors Pope John Paul II made during his long pontificate.
And this isn’t directed at you, and is just a general aside, but reading some comments not on here but other Catholic sites, I find it funny how some of the more staunch, more “pious” Catholics are disapproving of Pope John Paul II, not very forgiving to such a holy man…they’ve even used the “he was loved by the world” argument therefore he couldn’t have been saintly.
Yet, he’s hated & accused by both the world after his death and some Catholics. Just like how Mother Teresa was slandered and maligned after her death.
It’s bittersweet to see his beautification process and to see some of our own Catholics act so unforgiving to these individuals.
If John Paul II was fast tracked, he’d be fast tracked…
now that he’s properly going one way, they say, “hey what’s up with that?”
Look how the press misleads unsuspecting Catholics and non-Catholics with ‘worldly’ rhetoric. There IS NO SPECTRUM in the Catholic faith…No left, right, or center. There is only the faithful & the unfaithful.
The rest of the article gives some fair information about some of the negative errors Pope John Paul II made during his long pontificate.
Well I’m not too bothered. I trust in the Church. I bet if we had the internet back in Saint Francis of Assisi’s day-- and I am not comparing St. Francis’s holiness with Pope John Paul II’s – some of our fellow Catholics would cry foul at how Pope Gregory IX, just declared him a saint immediately, with no process.
And this isn’t directed at you, and is just a general aside, but reading some comments not on here but other Catholic sites, I find it funny how some of the more staunch, more “pious” Catholics are disapproving of Pope John Paul II, not very forgiving to such a holy man…they’ve even used the “he was loved by the world” argument therefore he couldn’t have been saintly.
Yet, he’s hated & accused by both the world after his death and some Catholics. Just like how Mother Teresa was slandered and maligned after her death.
It’s bittersweet to see his beautification process and to see some of our own Catholics act so unforgiving to these individuals.
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Rich_Olszewski
Guest
More correctly, the orthodox and the heterodox. Nonetheless, there is a spectrum in the faith. One reads of more traditionalist Catholics and of more liberal Catholics, and we don’t all march in lock step. Look at the death penalty or at war - a spectrum of Catholic belief in the rightness of such things.
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kaid100
Guest
That strikes me as a wise move, if he had allowed it to be fast-tracked there might have been some lingering doubt that he was canonized because of hasty grief rather than on his true merits.
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thomasf
Guest
As the Pope said today, it happened when it did because it is pleasing to the Lord.
That should be the end of the story.
That should be the end of the story.
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JReducation
Guest
Pope Benedict very unapologetically said that, with all due respect to canonical norm, he (Pope Benedict) hard urged this process to proceed as quickly as possible because it is God’s will.
He has made it clear to the Sacred Congregation for the Causes of the Saints to finish the study of the other alleged miracles as quickly as possible. He wants the job done well, but he does not want them to sit on it. Several times in his sermon he mentioned that the air of sanctity around John Paul was very obvious.
What we Catholics have to realize is that beatification and canonization is not really governed by canon law. It’s kind of a tricky thing. The canons are there for the benefit of the reader, to help the reader understand how the popes proceed. They are not there to bind the popes. Canonization is a papal prerogative that cannot be questioned by the faithful. People have been excommunicated for doing so. It’s called breaking with the primacy.
There is the famous case of Pope Gregory IX. The cardinals wanted to lynch him when he canonized St. Francis of Assisi 18 months after his death without consulting. He also canonized St. Anthony of Padua 11 months after his death without consulting. In both cases he said that he did not need to consult. He believed what everyone said about the sanctity of these men, because they were his friends and he had been their protector in life, when he was Cardinal Ugolino. When one of the cardinals refused to acknowledge the canonization of Anthony, Gregory excommunicated him until the cardinal apologized and did penance.
We don’t want to mess with that area of the papacy. That’s crossing a boundary that we have no right to cross.
It’s very important to remember that a beatification and canonization is a statement of faith in God and a proclamation of God’s glory and mercy.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
He has made it clear to the Sacred Congregation for the Causes of the Saints to finish the study of the other alleged miracles as quickly as possible. He wants the job done well, but he does not want them to sit on it. Several times in his sermon he mentioned that the air of sanctity around John Paul was very obvious.
What we Catholics have to realize is that beatification and canonization is not really governed by canon law. It’s kind of a tricky thing. The canons are there for the benefit of the reader, to help the reader understand how the popes proceed. They are not there to bind the popes. Canonization is a papal prerogative that cannot be questioned by the faithful. People have been excommunicated for doing so. It’s called breaking with the primacy.
There is the famous case of Pope Gregory IX. The cardinals wanted to lynch him when he canonized St. Francis of Assisi 18 months after his death without consulting. He also canonized St. Anthony of Padua 11 months after his death without consulting. In both cases he said that he did not need to consult. He believed what everyone said about the sanctity of these men, because they were his friends and he had been their protector in life, when he was Cardinal Ugolino. When one of the cardinals refused to acknowledge the canonization of Anthony, Gregory excommunicated him until the cardinal apologized and did penance.
We don’t want to mess with that area of the papacy. That’s crossing a boundary that we have no right to cross.
It’s very important to remember that a beatification and canonization is a statement of faith in God and a proclamation of God’s glory and mercy.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Digitonomy
Guest
As others have mentioned, the process was fast-tracked. Benedict waived the usual five-year waiting period before the cause was opened. For exactly the reasons you mention, I think this was an unwise move.
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JReducation
Guest
We don’t have much ground to stand on calling it an unwise move. Pope Benedict said that he had deliberately pushed to have this process move ahead quickly, with all due respect to Canon Law and he gave the only two reasons that are needed to make his decision valid.
He said, “I wanted it.”
Well, no one can tell the pope that he cannot do what he wants in this regard. This is his prerogative.
He also said, “I knew that it was pleasing to God.”
Well, if the pope knows that something is pleasing to God, it cannot be an unwise move.
The burden falls on those who contradict him, not on the faithful who want to remain in communion with the Primacy.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Digitonomy
Guest
Two points about this:
- ]I don’t think anyone would make the claim that the Holy Father is omniscient, so it’s probably best to interpret his statement as “I strongly believed that it was pleasing to God.” Let’s hope his belief on this matter is correct, but there is certainly room for other views.]I haven’t seen this quote from Benedict before, so I’m not certain exactly what he was referring to. Perhaps he simply felt it was pleasing to God to recognize the sainthood of John Paul. One could simultaneously believe that and also believe that the best time to officially proclaim the matter would be a century or two from now.
JReducation:
Burden? I’m not aware that any burden must be met in order to have an opinion.
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Veridical16
Guest
Thanks for that information, JRPope Benedict very unapologetically said that, with all due respect to canonical norm, he (Pope Benedict) hard urged this process to proceed as quickly as possible because it is God’s will.
Canonization is a papal prerogative that cannot be questioned by the faithful. People have been excommunicated for doing so. It’s called breaking with the primacy.
There is the famous case of Pope Gregory IX. ** The cardinals wanted to lynch him when he canonized St. Francis of Assisi 18 months after his death without consulting. ** He also canonized St. Anthony of Padua 11 months after his death without consulting. In both cases he said that he did not need to consult. He believed what everyone said about the sanctity of these men, because they were his friends and he had been their protector in life, when he was Cardinal Ugolino. When one of the cardinals refused to acknowledge the canonization of Anthony, Gregory excommunicated him until the cardinal apologized and did penance.
We don’t want to mess with that area of the papacy. That’s crossing a boundary that we have no right to cross.
It’s very important to remember that a beatification and canonization is a statement of faith in God and a proclamation of God’s glory and mercy.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Wow, I didn’t know that St. Francis canonization caused cardinals to become so irate, lol
The Lord knows how to ruffle feathers & chastise through his pious Popes!
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Veridical16
Guest
I think those nuances still has to do with the daily, ‘lower case’ c church issues, educational wise. The arguments over the gray areas of “Death Penalty - how its exercised etc. And what conditions provide righteous conduct in war” are points of discussion, but it does not necessarily cause tension or disunity or suggest there’s an equivalent to the ‘political spectrum.’ Surely, St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, in their respective holiness, as proven, still remained unified in their faith to God, despite their different conclusions on some moral subject matter & theological theories. Blessed John Scotus expanded on Thomas Aquinas’ philosophical axioms, yet he did not explore it as if it was breaking new ground, as if it was an amendment to economic theory, in regard to the word “spectrum” No, it was Scotus’ adjusted use of reason & understanding of a revealed truth. And this case of not being in “lock step” goes on with Benedict in his rule, Francis and his rule, etc.
Unity is not abandoned.
The Mass readings in Acts 2:42-47 this Easter Sunday allude to the early Church community being unified in their practices and connected.
ewtn.com/vbible/search.asp?abbr=Acts&ch=2&bv1=42&ev1=47
Which points to the Gospel what happens when one is unfaithful for a few days, with St. Thomas’ example & mistake in not staying unified with the apostles.
Mother Teresa has stressed that it’s a false notion to think of Catholics in terms of “liberal or conservative” Fr. Ignatius from the Franciscan Friars at Airmaria also says it must be thought of only as the “faithful or unfaithful”
With regard to the mystical body it does boil down to whether a Catholic is faithful or unfaithful. If you’re a traditionalist, a faithful Catholic, who appreciates the Latin Rite better and adheres and perhaps defends the faith from a Tomist perspective, or older, they will still be obedient to the Lord, they will not judge the non-traditionalist Catholics the way the Lord has asks his disciples not to judge. And a faithful less traditionalist Catholic who attends NO, they will be faithful and still have utmost reverence for the Eucharist in spite of the fact that they may accept and defend the faith from the guidance of a more modern perspective, say John Paul II’s more nuanced objections with how the Death Penalty has gotten away from what a just authority would implement capital punishment. They will not abuse the mass or amend the words of the bible (translate Virgin into young woman) to be politically correct, or usher in an agenda to promote teachings that deliberately contradict Church (women priests)
A non-faithful traditionalist will be pharisaic and prideful about their piety. They will start to side with the schismatics. A non-faithful traditionalist will become blinded with arrogance and dissent against Papal Authority.
A non-faithful non-traditionalist, will become a “liberal” modernist Catholic will be lukewarm & useless to God. They will ignore the Eucharist, and show no reverence to the host, as if it was just a symbolic ritual. Out of their lack of faith, modernism/dissent will take its place in their hearts.
Granted, the Church has diversity, the saints are testament to that: the orders, the hierarchy, and the diverse spiritual gifts given to all individual members from the Holy Spirit. We will have our points of contention with corporal matters, yes.
But there is this simplistic child like perspective that is lost on many Catholics, when they start complicating things with the idea of a “Catholic spectrum” which was the objection I was making.
It’s a false presumption–one which manifests itself from that writer, who even used the term “Catholics on the right, center & left” – that has led to many American Catholics think they can pick and choose what they accept and reject, and that leads them to think Sunday Mass is the day they put on their “Catholic hats” Whereas, on work days they’re completely secularist & using birth control. They step out of the unity in church because the misnomers of “political spectrum” comparisons to the world of the Church is ingrained in their minds now.
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JReducation
Guest
If you heard his homily or read it online, he admits that he pushed the beatification and he also states unapologetically that he bypassed Canon Law, because it was pleasing to God that John Paul be beatified now.
When popes make that kind of statement there can be many opinions, but only one that counts. Pope Benedict is actually following a precedent set by some of his predecessors who were very authoritative on the question of beatification and canonization. This beatification is slow compared canonizations that took place less than six-months after the death of the person and the popes dispensed with the canonical requirements.
Francis’ sanctity was very popular. However, the cardinals felt that there was too much mythology around his sanctity and they were concerned that some of the miracles could be questionable. Pope Gregory said that he believed the miracles, because he knew Francis personally. Therefore, he had seen his sanctity up front. Now Pope Benedict says that he and others saw Pope John Paul’s sanctity.
Some things never change. We’ve always had one pope and millions who want to be pope. The funny thing about this whole scenario was the second time around, Pope Gregory said, *“There are many opinions on this matter; however, the only one that is of value is the Pope’s. I am he.” *
He then proceeded to excommunicate a few people who later recanted their disagreement on this and several other issues. They were welcomed back to the Church.
Gregory IX and Alexander IV had a great love for the Franciscans and Dominicans. They waved all of the requirements for canonization of Franciscans and Dominicans. There is an old tradition that goes back to the 13th century. The Holy Father assigned a Cardinal to protect the Franciscans and Dominicans from the laity, the bishops and the monarchs. Gregory and Alexander had both served as Cardinal Protector of the Franciscans and Dominicans. They knew these saints very personally.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Digitonomy
Guest
Thanks for pointing out the source. Here is the actual statement from the beatification homily:
From the construction of the sentence in that Zenit transcript, it looks like the thing that is pleasing is that John Paul is blessed, not necessarily the time frame. If it were the latter, a semicolon rather than a colon would be appropriate. Even if they erred on the punctuation in the transcript, Benedict said it in a way that sounds more idiomatic; it came quickly because the Lord allowed it. In the same way, I could say that I responded to this post because it pleased the Lord that I do so, nevermind that I may be neglecting more important duties right now.
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JReducation
Guest
I see how they translated this. I heard it in Italian and it comes across differently. Though I have to admit that the Romance Languages have more flexibility in nuancing, because of their flexibility in word order. However, the one thig that is very clear in the English and the Italian is that he knew that he was accelerating events and he did so very deliberately. One has to accept that. A beatification is the pope’s call.Thanks for pointing out the source. Here is the actual statement from the beatification homily:From the construction of the sentence in that Zenit transcript, it looks like the thing that is pleasing is that John Paul is blessed, not necessarily the time frame. If it were the latter, a semicolon rather than a colon would be appropriate. Even if they erred on the punctuation in the transcript, Benedict said it in a way that sounds more idiomatic; it came quickly because the Lord allowed it. In the same way, I could say that I responded to this post because it pleased the Lord that I do so, never mind that I may be neglecting more important duties right now.
The question on the table is why the need to question something that we cannot change and that we’re not even allowed to express our opinion where it counts, which would be in Vatican circles? Even the cardinals have a limited amount of influence in the matter.
I look at it this way, if the cardinals of the Church know when to back off and not talk about something, the rest of us should take lessons. There were cardinals who disagreed with Pope Benedict’s decision. We will never know who they were. Once he made up his mind, their disagreement is worthless. They move on to other things.
As St. Francis said to the people of his time, even if you believe that you’re idea is better than that of the person in authority, once the person in authority has spoken, submit, be quiet and offer your discomfort as a penance. Such humility is pleasing to God and to man.
I know, you’re going to tell me that St. Francis is not infallible. We’ve heard that one too. Every time someone disagree with something that the Church does and a saint or blessed is quoted, out comes the “he’s not infallible” or “saints can be wrong”. All that may be true, but one truth is more important. These so called apparent mistakes in their logic made them saints. Maybe there is a certain naiveté that forms part of the fiber of every true saint.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Chris_McAvoy
Guest
If you think of all the thousands of saints that were not canonized by the Pope, this whole process is rather irrelevant.
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