By faith alone, a catholic misunderstanding

[fhansen]

I am a baptist and believe in the baptist/protestant salvation message and gospel as the only true gospel, I believe Catholics muddy the water on this issue.

Catholics often misunderstand by faith alone

I have heard many catholic lay people,authors,debtors and apologist misrepresent what by faith alone means. Now I admit fully this is caused in part by protestants who say “by faith alone” taken literally could lead a catholic to a misunderstanding with no further explanation. It does not help with many books etc that do the same that catholic’s may read.

By faith alone should be rejected
So to clarify “by faith alone” Catholics are 100% right to reject by faith alone just as the book of James does and Augustine. A simple mental faith or belief in Jesus as messiah and god does nothing of itself, as James says so even the demons believe.

what is meant by faith alone?

Maybe a catholic would better understand by Jesus alone. Protestant believe that our salvation comes from Jesus death on the cross for all our sins when we put our faith in him. It is not a mental faith or belief, but a trust in him as savior to pay the price of sin we could not, so when god looks at us on judgment day he can look on Jesus as perfect sacrifice for sins. However this also includes repentance from sin, asking forgiveness for those sins to god, being born again or a change of heart and asking Jesus into your heart as lord and savior.** It is not to say again**, a simple mental faith/belief in god/bible/Jesus as James rightly rejects.

It is to do whatever He asks: to pick up our cross and follow Him, to invest our talents, produce good fruit, etc, all by cooperating with His grace-and not dependent strictly on faith/trust alone. Faith is the beginning of restored relationship between man and God. But its expected to lead to much more-it’s expected to lead to holiness. That’s the New Covenant: God becoming the God of man again, forgiving and forgiving sin, and placing His law in our hearts and writing it on our minds, justifying us.

 

[glendab]

Hello JJSmity.

kind of, I have heard from** a catholic they say saved by grace alone**, were protestant by faith alone.

We see it as you get saved, and true salvation will auto result in good works, but the works dont save you they are a result of the works. Were as catholics see it more as faith is fulfilled or completed in good works.

thanks for post

I was looking more to simply clarify protestant beliefs and what is meant by faith alone as I have seen it misunderstood by some catholics no fault of their own. My view would be under the what is meant by faith alone? in my op to clarify my position.

I would say yes the sinners prayer, that person walks away justified. Like agustine said

“If God did not listen to sinners, it would have been all in vain for the publican to cast down his eyes to the ground and strike his breast saying: “Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner.” And that confession merited justification, just as the blind man merited enlightenment”
(Homilies on the Gospel of John*44:13 [A.D. 416]).Augustine

thanks for post

this thread was more for correcting misunderstandings. I would say were we differ is in works and how they are related. Catholics say salvation is completed in works, protestants say works are result of true saving faith but are disconnected from salvation.

I bolded the part I’d like to clarify. We don’t believe that a person is saved by grace alone.

Glenda

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Works are a response to God’s grace, not a means of earning it. There is no earning grace so there is no earning salvation. Grace is what saves us, for it is a participation in the life of God, it is a favor that is free and undeserved help from God which calls us to become children of God. The grace of salvation was merited by Jesus Christ and is bestowed by the Holy Spirit. Yet, God desires us to have a “conduit” for us to receive His grace. That conduit is faith that is alive. Both faith and works are positive responses to God’s grace. I’ve seen protestants say that works are a product of “saving faith”, but IMO that is giving credit to the believer’s faith rather than to God’s grace. I believe our good works are a product of grace. All we are doing is* cooperating* in “the works that God prepared for us in advance that we would walk in them” (cf Eph 2:10). See also Gal 5:22-25, 1 Cor 12:6, 1 Cor 15:10.

I suspect that our disagreement does not stem so much from the semantics of what we call faith and what you call faith. In a nutshell, I think we both agree that for faith to be alive, we are living in charity and mercy. We are not that far apart, I think, on what it means to be a faithful Christian. But I think the crux of the matter is that Catholics believe that salvation is a life long process and that Catholic’s believe that salvation can be lost if a believer turns their back on God and the free gift of salvation He offers (2 Pt 2:20, 1 Jn 5:16, 1 Cor 9:26-27) If one sees salvation as a one time event after a profession of faith (OSAS) I can easily see why they would think that works are completely disconnected with salvation. If, however, one believes that salvation is not a one time event and that salvation occurs throughout a lifetime, then you can more easily see why faith living in works of love and mercy is important in terms of salvation. These Scriptures talk about works and I believe they show a connection to salvation- not in earning it, of course, but in keeping it (that is to say, continuing to walk in living faith and persevering to the ‘end of the race’).

4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. Rv 2:4-5

. 15 "'I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were cold or hot! 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth. Rv 3:15-16

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. Jas 2:24

 

[sudy]

@ Prayer_Warrior, I’d just like to say that what you wrote was very well said IMHO.

 

[glendab]

Hello JJsmity.

…I keep hearing that protestants all have varying opinions on salvation on this thread,** I have never seen such a thing nor had it shown to me before.**… I do disagree though that works have anything to do with salvation besides the results of it.

Boldness is mine. I’m finally ready to comment. All you need to do to determine that the Protestants don’t all believe the same thing is get in your car and drive around whatever town you live in and count the number of Protestant churches. You will quickly see that they vary and some of the names on their signs out front show just some of the differences. Please try this, then you won’t need us Catholics to prove to you that the Protestant front is anything but unified.

Now about some works. You read your Bible, that is a work. You have been Baptized. That too is a work. Yet both of these I’m sure you would agree have been necessary for your personal salvation and that once these two things got done, I’m pretty sure you didn’t slam the Bible shut, put it in a drawer and forget about it. I’m also pretty sure you go someplace on Sundays to be with like-minded individuals, sharing in whatever is common among you and celebrating the grace that God has given you by praising Him in song and prayer as well as giving thanks for this in word and in deed. All of these things are works. If you truly believed in a faith alone type of salvation, sola fide, a once and done event, then you wouldn’t do any of those things at all because you would have faith enough not to do them and to prove you live by faith alone, you’d simply stop doing them. If you did do this, I’m sure you’d quickly feel insufficient in your level of participation in the works of God and would begin once again, to pray to Him, also a work. I’m also pretty sure that you are trying in your way to assist others to find the salvation you have found in Christ, albeit an incomplete salvation, but you’ve found something you’d like others to have, otherwise you wouldn’t be here trying to talk to us about this very issue. This too is a work. So, no matter what you deny about any of these several works you’ve done and are continuing to do, they are still being done by you, so you are actually living a belief in** some** works.

Lastly I’ll paste this Scripture passage from what Luther called the “Epistle of Straw,” which completely refutes the sola fide notion. Faith and Works.*
St. James, Chapter 2, verses 14 to 26: 14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? 17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. 19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. 20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 *You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. *23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” 24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? 26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

I bolded the punch line. I hope you get it. God is NOT JOKING!

Glenda

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

great post, question what denomination teaches mental faith alone? are you sure you have not misunderstood?

Thanks.

It would indeed be an interesting study to see the formal statements of various denominations on this subject.

I’m going by conversations with members of various evangelical Protestant groups. They say things like “Faith + nothing = salvation.” “Nothing” means works. Of course it could be argued that they themselves misunderstand faith as well. Possibly so. But OSAS, for instance, is hotly debated among Protestants.

Also “being saved” is somewhat ambiguous. Even in St. Paul it can mean God’s present work in our lives or salvation from eternal damnation when we die. In conversations and writings evangelical protestants often use “being saved” as synonymous with coming to believe. “Are you saved?” = do you believe?

As an example, I ran across this passage on a CARM web page after acknowledging that the believer should not live in sin:
“Second, salvation is indeed easy. All we have to do is believe and be saved. Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone; and no works are necessary either to obtain or maintain salvation. That is not to say that good works and repentance from sin don’t exist in the Christian life, but they exist because we are saved–not in order to become saved.”

The last sentence is striking. Jesus said “reform your lives and believe in the Gospel.” The author, however, seems to be saying repentance comes from being saved. Yet in his second sentence he says belief (including, one would have to say, believing Jesus’ command to reform our lives) comes before being saved.

All this stems from opposing the caricature of Catholicism that it teaches we work our way into heaven from scratch, even though that Pelagianism has been condemned since it first appeared in the late 4th century.

In Scripture saving faith includes in its essence repentance and the intention not to sin which means intending (at least) to live as Jesus’ and the NT authors taught. Works are a part of faith (obedience). The grace of God’s revelation in Christ is addressed to human freedom. The response of faith made by our freedom is total and integral and includes the choice to live as Jesus and the NT teach.

b] agreed, yet we are fallen humans.

True, but to resolve not to sin again can’t include in the same intention at the same time: “I’ll sin again anyway.” If you mean a sense of humility and realism is necessary in resolving not to sin, I agree.

d] agreed, but since that is not point of contention between the groups I thought it was not needed.

Makes sense.

agree with the rest.

Cool.

 

[steve_b]

Trust me, you did not read that from John Paul the Great. It’s actually heresy. We are saved by the Grace of Christian Baptism and by nothing else.

Don’t forget 837 “one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved”

Charity of which good works are a part

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

If we don’t do what God crearted us to do, namely the good works God prepared in advance for us to do, then we are like the fig tree that wouldn’t produce fruit, and is cut down and thrown into the fire.

 

[zz912]

not sure if this is topic but…yes works are a choice, something a changed born again heart will gravitate to, just as catholics say the holy spirit works in you to good works. Something all who are born again will do.

Absolutely NOT. Otherwise Jesus’ teaching about Him being the true vine is completely useless and meaningless. Jesus teaches that we MUST remain in Him. Remain. So we must make an active choice to remain in Him. And He also warns that those who do not, are taken and thrown into the fires of hell.

So no, all who are born again will NOT automatically do the good works required of them. Some will rejoice in being freed of sins, but then will not take up their crosses, and lift the burden Christ places on us.

So our salvation requires an active participation on our part.

 

[guanophore]

 kind of, I have heard from a catholic they say saved by grace alone, were protestant by faith alone.

And do you believe such drivel?

We see it as you get saved, and true salvation will auto result in good works, but the works dont save you they are a result of the works. Were as catholics see it more as faith is fulfilled or completed in good works.

I was looking more to simply clarify protestant beliefs and what is meant by faith alone as I have seen it misunderstood by some catholics no fault of their own. My view would be under the what is meant by faith alone? in my op to clarify my position.

How do you dispense with what James says about being saved by works, and not by faith alone?

this thread was more for correcting misunderstandings. I would say were we differ is in works and how they are related. Catholics say salvation is completed in works, protestants say works are result of true saving faith but are disconnected from salvation.

By what authority did Protestants create this separation?

 

[josh987654321]

Trust me, you did not read that from John Paul the Great.

Okay, thank you, my apologies.

May I ask, can you recall him saying anything similar to that? maybe not using ‘saved’ but more pointing out that in relation to faith and works and faith alone but faith without works is dead that were saying the same thing just in a different language?

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[steve_b]

.

May I ask, can you recall him saying anything similar to that? maybe not using ‘saved’ but more pointing out that in relation to faith and works and faith alone but faith without works is dead that were saying the same thing just in a different language?

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

see the following. #47 . Within that link is link #837 from the CCC. As you know, this catechism was approved by JPII. APOSTOLIC LETTER

 

[josh987654321]

see the following. #47 . Within that link is link #837 from the CCC. As you know, this catechism was approved by JPII. APOSTOLIC LETTER

Thank you steve b

God Bless

Josh

 

[jjsmity]

Understood. So the thing to do is to find out why the protestant thinks this and correct his misunderstanding.

I don’t really understand this comment. I thought the gist of this thread was about “faith alone” - but now you are saying “Jesus alone” and separated from salvation faith???
See how all these “Alone” comments can become confusing?

We see it all the time.
Perhaps you have not been as exposed to it because it doesn’t come up. Two protestants can hear the term “faith alone”, each nod his head in assent - and shout AMEN - each assuming the other has the same understanding when in fact they do not.

Amen

But you would agree that if one does not display works (as a result of a living faith) then they are not saved - correct?
If you do then you have agreed that works are a necessary part of salvation.
If you do not - then you are not in line with Scripture which says that faith without works is dead and a dead faith cannot save…

So - no matter how one wishes to express the matter…works are necessary - just as faith is necessary. The two things cannot be separated no matter how much some protestants would like to do so.

Peace
James

agreed assuming Catholics are correct. A thread of that topic should be started.

yes that is why you should read my op.

or because it is just thought by catholics?. I have been to many donimiations and spoken with many others all agree. Catholics always claim but do not support ever on this subject.

thanks.

yes i would say they are not saved.
works are part of salvation in a certain way of looking at it yes. But salvation is not dependent on works, but salvation will produce works.

I would say the bible does so clearly, but that is for other thread, the bible never does separate works after slalvation from salvation I agree 200% that might be what your saying.

Works are a response to God’s grace, not a means of earning it. There is no earning grace so there is no earning salvation. Grace is what saves us, for it is a participation in the life of God, it is a favor that is free and undeserved help from God which calls us to become children of God. The grace of salvation was merited by Jesus Christ and is bestowed by the Holy Spirit. Yet, God desires us to have a “conduit” for us to receive His grace. That conduit is faith that is alive. Both faith and works are positive responses to God’s grace. I’ve seen protestants say that works are a product of “saving faith”, but IMO that is giving credit to the believer’s faith rather than to God’s grace. I believe our good works are a product of grace. All we are doing is* cooperating* in “the works that God prepared for us in advance that we would walk in them” (cf Eph 2:10). See also Gal 5:22-25, 1 Cor 12:6, 1 Cor 15:10.

I suspect that our disagreement does not stem so much from the semantics of what we call faith and what you call faith. In a nutshell, I think we both agree that for faith to be alive, we are living in charity and mercy. We are not that far apart, I think, on what it means to be a faithful Christian. But I think the crux of the matter is that Catholics believe that salvation is a life long process and that Catholic’s believe that salvation can be lost if a believer turns their back on God and the free gift of salvation He offers (2 Pt 2:20, 1 Jn 5:16, 1 Cor 9:26-27) If one sees salvation as a one time event after a profession of faith (OSAS) I can easily see why they would think that works are completely disconnected with salvation. If, however, one believes that salvation is not a one time event and that salvation occurs throughout a lifetime, then you can more easily see why faith living in works of love and mercy is important in terms of salvation. These Scriptures talk about works and I believe they show a connection to salvation- not in earning it, of course, but in keeping it (that is to say, continuing to walk in living faith and persevering to the ‘end of the race’).

4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. Rv 2:4-5

. 15 "'I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were cold or hot! 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth. Rv 3:15-16

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. Jas 2:24

great post thanks. I think you are very correct in the differences and way of looking at it. There are protestants who say you can lose your salvation I tend to be on that viewpoint. I am not here to give a defense of protestant view to your biblical quotes on this thread. It may well happen in time, thanks for good accurate post.

 

[jjsmity]

Hello JJsmity.

Boldness is mine. I’m finally ready to comment. All you need to do to determine that the Protestants don’t all believe the same thing is get in your car and drive around whatever town you live in and count the number of Protestant churches. You will quickly see that they vary and some of the names on their signs out front show just some of the differences. Please try this, then you won’t need us Catholics to prove to you that the Protestant front is anything but unified.

Now about some works. You read your Bible, that is a work. You have been Baptized. That too is a work. Yet both of these I’m sure you would agree have been necessary for your personal salvation and that once these two things got done, I’m pretty sure you didn’t slam the Bible shut, put it in a drawer and forget about it. I’m also pretty sure you go someplace on Sundays to be with like-minded individuals, sharing in whatever is common among you and celebrating the grace that God has given you by praising Him in song and prayer as well as giving thanks for this in word and in deed. All of these things are works. If you truly believed in a faith alone type of salvation, sola fide, a once and done event, then you wouldn’t do any of those things at all because you would have faith enough not to do them and to prove you live by faith alone, you’d simply stop doing them. If you did do this, I’m sure you’d quickly feel insufficient in your level of participation in the works of God and would begin once again, to pray to Him, also a work. I’m also pretty sure that you are trying in your way to assist others to find the salvation you have found in Christ, albeit an incomplete salvation, but you’ve found something you’d like others to have, otherwise you wouldn’t be here trying to talk to us about this very issue. This too is a work. So, no matter what you deny about any of these several works you’ve done and are continuing to do, they are still being done by you, so you are actually living a belief in** some** works.

Lastly I’ll paste this Scripture passage from what Luther called the “Epistle of Straw,” which completely refutes the sola fide notion. Faith and Works.*
St. James, Chapter 2, verses 14 to 26: 14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? 17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. 19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. 20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 *You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. *23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” 24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? 26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

I bolded the punch line. I hope you get it. God is NOT JOKING!

Glenda

you have set up a strawman, I never said they agree on everything, I said they agree on salvation. Just as catholics would differ in opinions for example in my state they did survey almost half rejected the actual presence of jesus in the euckerist, the bishop was pissed. I have family that is faith alone, yet devout catholics and got that from church etc etc. There are varying differences in catholics as well. But to prove my point,** get in your car and ask every pastor about salvation.**

works

that is just terrible understanding no offence. Please read my op. Works will auto come from true salvation in protestant view, they dont contribute to that salvation, but that salvation will produce those works. You dont need to read the bible to get saved, or none would in book of acts and even up till 1600 often when bible became avalibel to average person [and many became protestant]. Baptism happens after salvation in protestant view.** A true born again heart will be led by spirit to good works and become closer to god**.

james

amen to that. I just dont understand how catholics think Protestants have missed the book of james. Go to any church there are bibles in every row, the people bring there bibles and we study the entire bible [unlike catholic church cant find a bible]. James is a great book and indeed refute faith alone as I presented in my op. Maybe in time i will do thread on book of james and how it relates to salvation and contrast the two views catholic/Protestant to see who is correct. I recommend debates for you to at least better understand opposing view points.

 

[Ignatius]

I am a baptist and believe in the baptist/protestant salvation message and gospel as the only true gospel, I believe Catholics muddy the water on this issue.

Catholics often misunderstand by faith alone

I have heard many catholic lay people,authors,debtors and apologist misrepresent what by faith alone means. Now I admit fully this is caused in part by protestants who say “by faith alone” taken literally could lead a catholic to a misunderstanding with no further explanation. It does not help with many books etc that do the same that catholic’s may read.

By faith alone should be rejected
So to clarify “by faith alone” Catholics are 100% right to reject by faith alone just as the book of James does and Augustine. A simple mental faith or belief in Jesus as messiah and god does nothing of itself, as James says so even the demons believe.

what is meant by faith alone?

Maybe a catholic would better understand by Jesus alone. Protestant believe that our salvation comes from Jesus death on the cross for all our sins when we put our faith in him. It is not a mental faith or belief, but a trust in him as savior to pay the price of sin we could not, so when god looks at us on judgment day he can look on Jesus as perfect sacrifice for sins. However this also includes repentance from sin, asking forgiveness for those sins to god, being born again or a change of heart and asking Jesus into your heart as lord and savior.** It is not to say again**, a simple mental faith/belief in god/bible/Jesus as James rightly rejects.

Then, as the term is not Biblical, why not us an expression that means what you intend to say?

(BTW, I know a lot of Protestants who declare unequivocally that they do mean Faith Alone, without any qualification, when they say Faith Alone,

 

[guanophore]

Do you believe that God makes us robots that are incapable of choosing to do good works?

If no, then doing works is a choice we must make, and are NOT an automatic thing that all saved people will do.

It is the Reformed view that a transformation occurs when one is born again, ,such that there is a desire to do good works. If one does not have this, one is not truly born again.

 

[jjsmity]

Thanks.

It would indeed be an interesting study to see the formal statements of various denominations on this subject.

I’m going by conversations with members of various evangelical Protestant groups. They say things like “Faith + nothing = salvation.” “Nothing” means works. Of course it could be argued that they themselves misunderstand faith as well. Possibly so. But OSAS, for instance, is hotly debated among Protestants.

Also “being saved” is somewhat ambiguous. Even in St. Paul it can mean God’s present work in our lives or salvation from eternal damnation when we die. In conversations and writings evangelical protestants often use “being saved” as synonymous with coming to believe. “Are you saved?” = do you believe?

As an example, I ran across this passage on a CARM web page after acknowledging that the believer should not live in sin:
“Second, salvation is indeed easy. All we have to do is believe and be saved. Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone; and no works are necessary either to obtain or maintain salvation. That is not to say that good works and repentance from sin don’t exist in the Christian life, but they exist because we are saved–not in order to become saved.”

The last sentence is striking. Jesus said “reform your lives and believe in the Gospel.” The author, however, seems to be saying repentance comes from being saved. Yet in his second sentence he says belief (including, one would have to say, believing Jesus’ command to reform our lives) comes before being saved.

All this stems from opposing the caricature of Catholicism that it teaches we work our way into heaven from scratch, even though that Pelagianism has been condemned since it first appeared in the late 4th century.

In Scripture saving faith includes in its essence repentance and the intention not to sin which means intending (at least) to live as Jesus’ and the NT authors taught. Works are a part of faith (obedience). The grace of God’s revelation in Christ is addressed to human freedom. The response of faith made by our freedom is total and integral and includes the choice to live as Jesus and the NT teach.

True, but to resolve not to sin again can’t include in the same intention at the same time: “I’ll sin again anyway.” If you mean a sense of humility and realism is necessary in resolving not to sin, I agree.

Makes sense.

Cool.

I will assure you all agree on faith alone. It can be said different ways but meaning is same, if you asked me faith+ no works i would say yes, yet read my op it would seem different, same thing. That is why none can produce these various protestant views on salvation

I may be misunderstanding you but I believe you misread the article read here

First of all, salvation is not merely an intellectual assent and verbal declaration of Christ as savior. Even the demons believe that God exists (James 2:19). Our faith in God is not ascentia, that is, mere intellectual acknowledgment. Instead it is fiducia, a faithful trust. The first sense has no heart, no commitment to God, and is ultimately without God. Therefore, it is an empty belief, has no power, does not change the person (2 Cor. 5:17; John 3:3), and bears no godly fruit (Gal. 5:22)…** When we are truly saved, we want to follow Christ** (John 10:27-28). That is why 1 John 2:4 says, “The one who says, ‘I have come to know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” Obviously, Christians are called to obey Christ–not live in in sin. Rom. 6:1-2, “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?” So, in this sense of “easy believism,” we would agree that it is false since it negates the need of repentance and holiness (1 Peter 1:16).

I agree with what you have said below.

Absolutely NOT. Otherwise Jesus’ teaching about Him being the true vine is completely useless and meaningless. Jesus teaches that we MUST remain in Him. Remain. So we must make an active choice to remain in Him. And He also warns that those who do not, are taken and thrown into the fires of hell.

So no, all who are born again will NOT automatically do the good works required of them. Some will rejoice in being freed of sins, but then will not take up their crosses, and lift the burden Christ places on us.

So our salvation requires an active participation on our part.

your first section does not contradict what i said or second section.I agree with you.

1996Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, thefree and undeserved help that God gives usto respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternallife

2005Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord’s words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"57 - reflection onGod’s blessingsin our life and in the lives of the saints offers us aguarantee that grace is at work in us*and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6Z.HTM

 

[jjsmity]

And do you believe such drivel?

How do you dispense with what James says about being saved by works, and not by faith alone?

By what authority did Protestants create this separation?

saved by grace

1996Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, thefree and undeserved help that God gives usto respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternallife

2027No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods. In other words theinitiativeof our salvation belongs to God.* It is God, not us, who takes thefirststep to save us.* He does so by providing us with His Grace.*** Thus Catholics believe inSalvation by Graceand never believe inSalvation by Works. *By ourselves, using our own efforts and freedom, we can never reach the justified state to enter heaven. It is God, through His Grace, who takes the first initiative to move us towards our salvation.
there is no such thing as salvation by works in Catholicism
vivacatholic.wordpress.com/salvation-in-catholicism/

2005Since it belongs to the supernatural order, **grace **escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord’s words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"57 - reflection onGod’s blessingsin our life and in the lives of the saints offers us aguarantee that grace is at work in us*and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6Z.HTM

It follows, then, dearly beloved, beyond alldoubt, that as yourgoodlife is nothing else thanGod’sgrace,* so also theeternallife which is the recompense of agoodlife is thegraceofGod**; moreover it is given gratuitously, even as that is given gratuitously to which it is given. But that to which it is given is solely and simplygrace
newadvent.org/fathers/1510.htm

God, however, who returnsgoodforevilby Hisgrace, which is not given according to ourmerits, enabled theapostleto conclude his statement and say:But when the kindness andloveof ourSaviourGodshone upon us—not of works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy Hesavedus, by the laver of regeneration and renewal of theHoly Ghost, whom He shed upon us abundantly throughJesus ChristourSaviour; that,** being justifiedby Hisgrace**, we should be made heirs according to thehopeofeternallife.Titus3:4-7

Thus, it isnecessaryfor a man that he should be not only justifiedwhen unrighteous by thegraceofGod*—that is, be changed from unholiness to righteousness—when he is requited withgoodfor hisevil; but that, even after he has becomejustifiedbyfaith,graceshould accompany him on his way, and he should lean upon it, lest he fall. Though yoursinsbe as purple, I will make them white assnow?Isaiah1:18

You aresavedthroughfaith,added,And that not of yourselves, but it is thegiftofGod.And again, lest they should say they deserved so great agiftby their works, he immediately added,Not of works, lest any man should boast.Ephesians2:9Not that he deniedgoodworks, or emptied them of their value, when he says thatGodrenders to every man according to his works;Romans2:6but because works proceed fromfaith, and notfaithfrom works. Therefore it is from Him that we have works of righteousness, from whom comes alsofaithitself, concerning which it is written,Thejustshall live by*faith.Habakkuk2:4
newadvent.org/fathers/1510.htm

james
its looking like I will have to do thread on that at some point, watch a debate on it.

what authority

the bible, that is the book for me.

 

[jjsmity]

Then, as the term is not Biblical, why not us an expression that means what you intend to say?

(BTW, I know a lot of Protestants who declare unequivocally that they do mean Faith Alone, without any qualification, when they say Faith Alone,

I did not make it up, that is why i wish to clarify it. I am sure when protestant brook off all understood what was meant, today some not most Catholics dont. I also mean faith alone, what we mean by that is the same, how Catholics [some] understand it is the problem and reason for post.

 

[guanophore]

I believe you misunderstood what I meant when saying muddy the waters me Protestant did it again lol] I meant catholics muddy the gospel message of jesus by adding works etc.

Can you explain what you mean by “adding works”?

I also think some catholics misunderstand what protestants mean by faith alone, as you said in part because of protestants.

can you clarify how your view differs from the JDDJ?