By faith alone, a catholic misunderstanding

[jjsmity]

On the contary since you are asserting that Catholics believe they are saved by works, it is incumbent upon you to define your terms. What is “salvation”? What are the “works” by which you believe Catholics think they are saved?

But I will offer this perspective:

8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.Eph. 2:8-10

Catholics believe that we are saved "for hagios ergos (good/holy works). Although the deeds that God has prepared beforehand are not the basis of our salvation, they are intracately connected with it (cannot be separated from it).

Jesus was clear that we would be judged on these actions.

The Apostles taught that salvation is only completed when we are judged, and the works are part of the judgement, which is why we consider them connected to salvation.

A response to this would require that we define the nature of “Catholic Sacraments”.

I don’t know of any such list that exists, and I fail to see why it would be important to have one. The Apsotle writes that the works we are to do have been predestined for us.

Perhaps these are not your words, and you don’t know how to set them apart from your own text?

Is this your understanding of a Catholic Sacrament?

What is “merit”?

What does it mean to “keep the salvation”?

This is helpful in clarifying. So do you not believe that the things God has commanded for us as pleasing and forms of worship will make us more worthy of our calling, and keep us in His grace?

Do you think it is possible for a person to lost their salvation?

The fact that works are included in our salvation does not meant that they are the basis or the means by which we are saved. The works are produced in and through us by the Holy Spirit.

I think you accidentally misquoted what I said, someone else was asking me. So not sure if you want me to respond to something? I did not type those down. Your Ephesians quote and answer I agree with 100% that was all i read though after I noticed the mistake.

Could you please identify what is meant by “priests preaching salvation” in these places, and why you think it is contrary to the Catholic Church?

protestant view i would say, my op. But given that we seem to be closer than thought…

 

[jjsmity]

Here are a few other verses to also show that bearing fruit (doing works) are important.

The gift of faith is explained in the parable of the talents… if you don’t make use of this gift, even what you have will be taken away from you.

Amen, I agree with that,come preach at our baptist church would you?

I guess it depends on which “protestant” one asks. From a Lutheran perspective, sacraments are not a “work” that is outside of, or contrary to grace. In fact, sacraments are grace, the means of grace to be precise. It is by hearing the word and receiving the sacraments that grace is imparted to us.

I was baptized a month and a day after I was born. I performed no work in that event, but I did receive grace, forgiveness of sins, regeneration, and the abiding of the Holy Spirit. The very first seeds of faith.
Even now when I receive Holy Absolution after confession, or Christ’s body and blood in the Eucharist, I am receiving grace, prodded by the Holy Spirit to avail myself of these things.

These are not my works, but His, meant to extend forgiveness of sin, and strengthen faith.

Jon

That is to me were motive comes in, you are not doing it to earn something so not a work. Let me ask, would you be in haven if you never did a sacrament? just faith in jesus and what I wrote on op?.

 

[sennincatholic]

Absolutely NOT. Otherwise Jesus’ teaching about Him being the true vine is completely useless and meaningless. Jesus teaches that we MUST remain in Him. Remain. So we must make an active choice to remain in Him. And He also warns that those who do not, are taken and thrown into the fires of hell.

So no, all who are born again will NOT automatically do the good works required of them. Some will rejoice in being freed of sins, but then will not take up their crosses, and lift the burden Christ places on us.

So our salvation requires an active participation on our part.

You nailed it!

 

[jjsmity]

Originally Posted by zz912 View Post
Absolutely NOT. Otherwise Jesus’ teaching about Him being the true vine is completely useless and meaningless. Jesus teaches that we MUST remain in Him. Remain. So we must make an active choice to remain in Him. And He also warns that those who do not, are taken and thrown into the fires of hell.

So no, all who are born again will NOT automatically do the good works required of them. Some will rejoice in being freed of sins, but then will not take up their crosses, and lift the burden Christ places on us.

So our salvation requires an active participation on our part.

You nailed it!

Just want to say my topic in op is not to debate the views or eternal salvation but just my op topic. Not sure if I said anything on this or not butt from our prospective we agree, we must receive what is sent from jesus/holy spirit. In john 15 it is clear if you remain in jesus by faith and relationship] you **will **produce fruit v 5 .The reason to be rejected and not produce fruit is v 6 because they do not remain in him jesus]. It ends with v8 saying

This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

that is proof that you are a disciple of jesus. Basically v 5 we can do nothing of ourselves, we must remain in jesus and it all comes from jesus.

if you are arguing against this

“So our salvation requires an active participation on our part”

I agree 100%,Calvinist only would disagree.

 

[JRKH]

Hi James. I was saying from a protestant viewpoint. Does not Rome say we must be water baptized and go to confession to priest and partake of his blood and body?

Certainly the Catholic Church teaches this…Because Jesus did - and so did those who were taught personally by Jesus and were, you will agree, filled with the Holy Spirit.
But in no case are these things about “earning salvation” through “works”.

I would say so personally. If a catholic out of love for god does things he thinks hes commanded not to earn salvation or to keep away from hell, than i dont see that as work no.

Good…the you are coming to better understand the Catholic view.
Now that said, I will place this caveat on the matter.
Since we are all imperfect in our love, we can do things more out of simple obedience and there can certainly be an element of “keeping away from hell”. The Great mystic Doctors of the Church describe a development of this “growth in holiness” as moving from a servile fear to a full on Love relationship.

Remember that “Fear is the beginning of Wisdom”…but it’s end is Love.

I disagree that it fails “faith alone” unless what seems to be saying the faith alone I reject and catholic should as well on my op.

Sorry - I do not understand what you are trying to say here…

Peace
James

 

[JonNC]

That is to me were motive comes in, you are not doing it to earn something so not a work. Let me ask, would you be in haven if you never did a sacrament? just faith in jesus and what I wrote on op?.

Where does “just faith in Jesus” come from, JJ? The question/scenario you present obviously leads to another: would you be in heaven if you never heard the Word? just faith in jesus.

Faith in Jesus is a gift of grace. God’s plan for bringing grace to us is by our hearing the Word and receiving the sacraments. Your question implies that these are different things, and that the sacraments are somehow less important than the word.

Why would I, having faith in Jesus, not want to participate in His sacraments?
If I were not already Baptized, why would I resist being Baptized.
If I know that “…He is faithful and just to forgive our sins…”, why would I not avail myself of Confession/Holy Absolution?
If I know that there is forgivenenss of sin in receiving His true body and true blood in the Eucharist, why would I **not **receive them?

Jon

 

[JRKH]

Where does “just faith in Jesus” come from, JJ? The question/scenario you present obviously leads to another: would you be in heaven if you never heard the Word? just faith in jesus.

Faith in Jesus is a gift of grace. God’s plan for bringing grace to us is by our hearing the Word and receiving the sacraments. Your question implies that these are different things, and that the sacraments are somehow less important than the word.

Why would I, having faith in Jesus, not want to participate in His sacraments?
If I were not already Baptized, why would I resist being Baptized.
If I know that “…He is faithful and just to forgive our sins…”, why would I not avail myself of Confession/Holy Absolution?
If I know that there is forgivenenss of sin in receiving His true body and true blood in the Eucharist, why would I **not **receive them?

Jon

Well stated Jon.

What does jj mean by “just faith in Jesus”?
What constitutes this faith?
What separates and elevates “Faith” above “belief”? (even the demons “believe” and tremble)

When one says they have “faith in Jesus”, or they say that they are a Disciple of Christ", what does that entail? The answer to this is obviously contained in the whole of the NT and is much more than simple belief. There is so much connected to “Faith in Jesus” that I could never describe it as “just” faith in Jesus.

Peace
James

 

[glendab]

Hello Guano.

I know this was not directed to me but I wanted to weigh in on it.

The Church does not baptize without a profession of faith. For infants, and others who may not have the capacity, the Church receives the profession of faith from the parents/Godparents.

In the New Covenant, Baptism replaces circumcision as an entrance Rite. Children are brought into the covenant through their parents faith, just as Jesus was by Joseph and Mary.

I susspect this poster may have fallen into the hersies of Calvanism, but I can’t tell for sure.

Catholics call this drawing grace “pre-venient” grace, the grace that calls every human soul to be saved. Those who are of age are able to respond to this grace, and be drawn into baptism and be joined to the Church.

I know what you’re getting at but, I’d like to hear from the person I asked. Thanks for trying though.

Glenda

 

[glendab]

Hello all. I thought it appropriate for this section from the CCC to be posted. That way, we’ve got something to compare all with and I also think it compliments things already posted nicely. (besides that, it matches my drapes…)

Glenda

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47 (1719)
1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48 (1966)
Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49
2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.
2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, “since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:”50 (490)
Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.51
2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of “eternal life” respond, beyond all hope, to this desire: (1742, 2550)
If at the end of your very good works… , you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed “very good” since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.52

Continued on next post…

 

[glendab]

Hello all! Here’s the rest.

2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning “favor,” “gratuitous gift,” “benefit.”53 Whatever their character—sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues—charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.54 (1108, 1127, 799-801)
2004 Among the special graces ought to be mentioned the graces of state that accompany the exercise of the responsibilities of the Christian life and of the ministries within the Church:
Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching; he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.55
2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord’s words — “Thus you will know them by their fruits”57—reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.
A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: “Asked if she knew that she was in God’s grace, she replied: ‘If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.’”58
III. Merit

You are glorified in the assembly of your Holy Ones, for in crowning their merits you are crowning your own gifts.59
2006 The term “merit” refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it. (1723, 1807)
2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator. (42)
2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit. (306, 155, 970)
2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God’s gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us “co-heirs” with Christ and worthy of obtaining “the promised inheritance of eternal life.”60 The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 “Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due… Our merits are God’s gifts.”62 (604)
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions. (1998)
2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace. (492, 1460)
After earth’s exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone… In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.63

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/epub/index.cfm#

Have fun and be peaceful.

Glenda

 

[jjsmity]

Where does “just faith in Jesus” come from, JJ? The question/scenario you present obviously leads to another: would you be in heaven if you never heard the Word? just faith in jesus.

Faith in Jesus is a gift of grace. God’s plan for bringing grace to us is by our hearing the Word and receiving the sacraments. Your question implies that these are different things, and that the sacraments are somehow less important than the word.

Why would I, having faith in Jesus, not want to participate in His sacraments?
If I were not already Baptized, why would I resist being Baptized.
If I know that “…He is faithful and just to forgive our sins…”, why would I not avail myself of Confession/Holy Absolution?
If I know that there is forgivenenss of sin in receiving His true body and true blood in the Eucharist, why would I **not **receive them?

Jon

I agree 100% of course not the eucharist] but I feel you have side steeped the question. The question was to try to get to motive and how they are viewed within salvation.

Well stated Jon.

What does jj mean by “just faith in Jesus”?
What constitutes this faith?
What separates and elevates “Faith” above “belief”? (even the demons “believe” and tremble)

When one says they have “faith in Jesus”, or they say that they are a Disciple of Christ", what does that entail? The answer to this is obviously contained in the whole of the NT and is much more than simple belief. There is so much connected to “Faith in Jesus” that I could never describe it as “just” faith in Jesus.

Peace
James

me either, but it is common usage and can lead to false ideas, just the reason I made post.

 

[JRKH]

I agree 100% of course not the eucharist] but I feel you have side steeped the question. The question was to try to get to motive and how they are viewed within salvation.

I disagree that Jon has sidestepped the issue. If you read what the reply carefully you will see that this is exactly what he is describing. Jesus and the Apostles have taught us to do these things. It is part and parcel of being a disciple…of having a living faith.
The motive is to follow Christ and that is the perspective from which they are viewed.

Sorry for butting in Jon…(no I’m not)…

me either, but it is common usage and can lead to false ideas, just the reason I made post.

Exactly.
To my mind, saying “just faith in Christ” is very similar and just as false as saying “faith alone”. It reduces the all encompassing, all pervading richness of discipleship to something that can all to easily be seen as simple and superficial.

Peace
James

 

[guanophore]

Hi James. I was saying from a protestant viewpoint. Does not rome say

Smity, the Catholic Church is not “Rome”. There are 23 Rites in the CC, of which the Ltin is only one. What “Rome” teaches (along with all the others) is the faith that was handed down to us from the Apostles.

we must be water baptised and go to confession to priest and partake of his blood and body?

Yes, the apostles taught that baptism is how we enter the Church, and become joined to Christ. We are not to be admitted to the remainder of the Holy Mysteries without first having been baptized.

Confession with a priest is for the absolution of post-baptismal sins. The Apostles taugtht that baptism washes away all sins, original and personal, but if we sin after baptism we are to confess and be forgiven. We are not to accept the Body and Blood in an unworthly manner by approaching the altar with unconfessed sins.

I would say so personally. If a catholic out of love for god does things he thinks hes commanded not to earn salvation or to keep away from hell, than i dont see that as work no.

Well that is good, because Catholics do not believe there are any works we can do to “earn” salvation.

We do believe, though, that by walking in His commandments we are able to cling to the Vine, and bear much fruit.

I disagree that it fails "faith alone" unless what seems to be saying the faith alone I reject and catholic should

Catholics reject “faith alone” because it contradicts what the Apostles taught. Faith is never alone. Saving faith connects us to grace, which is how we are saved. Saving faith is also always accompanied by hope, and love, which expresses itself in works. Never alone.

Thanks for asking great questions and wanting to get to understand better. Maybe with your help you can help me understand Catholicism better to better go back to my baptist and try and unite us.

Well, that seems like a lot to try to take on, but I do hope you will understand Catholic faith better. There is actually quite a lot we share with Baptists.

Good works or sacraments done out of heart for good not to earn or keep from purgatory/hell are a great thing.

How do you define “purgatory”.

What is wrong with doing good works to keep out of hell?

I also do  believe works separate those who follow jesus from those who dont, sheep and goats as you say. The sheep know jesus follow him and will do good works. Those works will show we are who we say. Yes all are judged for their works before god, and judged or rewarded we all agree.

Yes, this is what the Apostles taught.

 

[tdgesq]

I’ve highlighted the parts of your comments that I’m having trouble with. I can gather from these comments that you don’t believe in infant Baptism because faith makes Baptism bear fruit and is necessary before baptism can happen? or something like that. Can you explain what you mean please.

Sure. Notice in my previous post that I mentioned the faith of the individual or the faith of the Church. The Church’s faith precedes the faith of the believer. CCC 1124. In the case of infant baptism, it is the faith of the Church that stands in place of the infant. newadvent.org/summa/4068.htm#article9

I also noted your comment that grace precedes the faith that actuates the salvation contained in Baptism. Do I have this way you see it correct? Grace first, then faith, then Baptism. Right? Let me know.

That is a fair summary, although there needs to be a little bit more explanation. Actual Grace precedes faith. There is a moment where actual grace and faith coincide in the adult; the moment where the human will assents to God’s invitation. The sacrament of baptism presupposes faith, and is in fact called (as are all the sacraments) a sacrament of faith. Baptism of the faithful results in sanctifying grace, the saving power of God.

 

[Porknpie]

I think at this point it would be appropriate to ask what you consider works? Is this simply feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, forgiving offenses, etc. or do you also have other things you consider works that you see as following your salvation?

JJSmity, the Catholic response would be 100% consistent with the James 2:

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, Abraham was not justified by “faith alone”. Like him, we are saved by faith and works … not one, nor the other, but both. Faith is made complete by works. On the contrary, faith without works is incomplete. It is as James says, “dead”.

 

[glendab]

Hello tdgesq.

Sure. Notice in my previous post that I mentioned the faith of the individual or the faith of the Church. The Church’s faith precedes the faith of the believer. CCC 1124. In the case of infant baptism, it is the faith of the Church that stands in place of the infant. newadvent.org/summa/4068.htm#article9

That is a fair summary, although there needs to be a little bit more explanation. Actual Grace precedes faith. There is a moment where actual grace and faith coincide in the adult; the moment where the human will assents to God’s invitation. The sacrament of baptism presupposes faith, and is in fact called (as are all the sacraments) a sacrament of faith. Baptism of the faithful results in sanctifying grace, the saving power of God.

Thanks for splainin’ It helps.

Glenda

P.S. Your name is too hard to type. Could you’ve picked Ben or Tom or can I interest you in Joe?

 

[tdgesq]

This is not even my confusion, though I see your point, I have trouble even seeing the sacraments as “work”.

On Justification

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema. history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html

Faith is not the only cause of justification. Other preparatory acts, particularly baptism or the desire thereof are required.

CHAPTER VI.
The manner of Preparation.

Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised,-and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves, from the fear of divine justice whereby they are profitably agitated, to consider the mercy of God, are raised unto hope, confiding that God will be propitious to them for Christ’s sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice; and are therefore moved against sins by a certain hatred and detestation, to wit, by that penitence which must be performed before baptism: lastly, when they purpose to receive baptism, to begin a new life, and to keep the commandments of God.

You can call these additional acts something else besides “works,” but they are required before a person receives the grace of justification.

 

[tdgesq]

Hello tdgesq.

Thanks for splainin’ It helps.

Glenda

P.S. Your name is too hard to type. Could you’ve picked Ben or Tom or can I interest you in Joe?

Unfortunately they were already taken. I can always count on tdgesq for an available handle.

 

[jjsmity]

I disagree that Jon has sidestepped the issue. If you read what the reply carefully you will see that this is exactly what he is describing. Jesus and the Apostles have taught us to do these things. It is part and parcel of being a disciple…of having a living faith.
The motive is to follow Christ and that is the perspective from which they are viewed.

Sorry for butting in Jon…(no I’m not)…

Exactly.
To my mind, saying “just faith in Christ” is very similar and just as false as saying “faith alone”. It reduces the all encompassing, all pervading richness of discipleship to something that can all to easily be seen as simple and superficial.

Peace
James

if that is the perspective than great. But it may not get to the differences, that is why i asked if he would still be saved or not, but it sounds like motive would be good if that is the case.

I agree, however it is fast and the common turm, i never made the saying up dont shot the messenger:

Smity, the Catholic Church is not “Rome”. There are 23 Rites in the CC, of which the Ltin is only one. What “Rome” teaches (along with all the others) is the faith that was handed down to us from the Apostles.

Yes, the apostles taught that baptism is how we enter the Church, and become joined to Christ. We are not to be admitted to the remainder of the Holy Mysteries without first having been baptized.

Confession with a priest is for the absolution of post-baptismal sins. The Apostles taugtht that baptism washes away all sins, original and personal, but if we sin after baptism we are to confess and be forgiven. We are not to accept the Body and Blood in an unworthly manner by approaching the altar with unconfessed sins.

Well that is good, because Catholics do not believe there are any works we can do to “earn” salvation.

We do believe, though, that by walking in His commandments we are able to cling to the Vine, and bear much fruit.

Catholics reject “faith alone” because it contradicts what the Apostles taught. Faith is never alone. Saving faith connects us to grace, which is how we are saved. Saving faith is also always accompanied by hope, and love, which expresses itself in works. Never alone.

Well, that seems like a lot to try to take on, but I do hope you will understand Catholic faith better. There is actually quite a lot we share with Baptists.

How do you define “purgatory”.

What is wrong with doing good works to keep out of hell?

Yes, this is what the Apostles taught.

roman catholic. But yeah that is the claim that it has been passed down though generations.

sacraments

baptist would call these “works” not needed for salvation only what mentioned on my op. We disagree on what is meant in bible on baptism/etc.

fruit
as do we.

reject faith alone

as do we, we agree 100% there, but that is reason for my op to clear up misunderstanding of protestant faith alone, that you still seem to carry.

purgatory/hell

the fact you believe you must do these works to keep out of hell instead of what Christ did on cross is were we separate.

JJSmity, the Catholic response would be 100% consistent with the James 2:

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, Abraham was not justified by “faith alone”. Like him, we are saved by faith and works … not one, nor the other, but both. Faith is made complete by works. On the contrary, faith without works is incomplete. It is as James says, “dead”.

you keep misquoting my on accident. I never typed that, if you wish to say something to me please just type to something i have said or just but jj at top than type.

what you typed above is 100% reason i made op, misunderstanding of faith alone. James is speaking of the faith alone rejected by all and catholics use it to set up straw man against protestants. I will do thread on james.

 

[sudy]

You know, I think that at the end of the day we’ll just have to disagree. We [Catholics] believe that participation in the Sacraments, prayer, penance and bearing fruit (works) are required for Salvation. I don’t mean to imply that we are ‘earning’ Salvation, because we are absolutely not, just that they are a necessary part and required in order to follow Christ… ‘If any want to become My followers, let them deny themselves and take up their cross and follow Me. Anyone who wants to save his life will lose it; but anyone who loses his life for My sake will find it.’ I believe we can lose Salvation too.

I think there’s a very common pattern emerging these days… disunity, rejection, manipulation of scripture, and a general justification for sin. Christ was very clear when He told us what is required and 2 Timothy 2: 14-15 springs to mind: ‘Remind them of this, and warn them before God that they are to avoid wrangling over words, which does no good but only ruins those who are listening.’