By faith alone, a catholic misunderstanding

[sudy]

I guess what I mean to say is that it’s not a one time deal. Jesus gave His life so that we may be saved, but we are required to reciprocate. One declaration of faith is inadequate, especially if we get so caught up in other aspects of life that we have no time for our Lord, regardless of whether we still believe or not… We must keep saying Yes to the Lord. Just believing in the existence of Jesus is not adequate.

 

[Porknpie]

you keep misquoting my on accident.

I don’t understand when I misquote you. But that said, do you agree with scripture that faith is made complete by works? And that without works, faith would therefore be “incomplete”?

 

[Porknpie]

purgatory/hell

the fact you believe you must do these works to keep out of hell instead of what Christ did on cross is were we separate.

No JJ, this is not what Catholics believe. Catholics believe, despite what you have been told erroneously that:

1. We are saved by GRACE
2. Through Faith
3. Working in Love.

It’s all by God’s grace. No Catholic believes that we can work our way to salvation. This is error about Catholicism that has been passed on to you. A Catholic hearing this would say

Through Christ’s death on the cross I can say:

a) I was saved.
b) I am being saved.
c) I have hope that I will be saved.

All the above is 100% scriptural.

Is there a point, #1 - #3 or a) - c) that you disagree with? If so, which one?

PnP

 

[JRKH]

if that is the perspective than great. But it may not get to the differences, that is why i asked if he would still be saved or not, but it sounds like motive would be good if that is the case.

What differences?

I agree, however it is fast and the common turm, i never made the saying up dont shot the messenger:

Not shooting anybody…but if the messenger is giving a confusing (and dangerous) message then perhaps the messenger needs to examine if that “common term” is really the message they want to give…

Peace
James

 

[guanophore]

sacraments

baptist would call these “works” not needed for salvation only what mentioned on my op.

But how to Baptists DEFINE a sacrament?

We disagree on what is meant in bible on baptism/etc.

How do you know?

purgatory/hell

the fact you believe you must do these works to keep out of hell instead of what Christ did on cross is were we separate.

Christ paid the price for our sins on the cross. He purchased freedom for us, not license. the fact that we are bought with a price does not mean we are to go on sinning. Rather, we are to bear the fruit that befit repentance. When we are not producing good fruit, we are either rotting on the vine or not remaining in the Vine.

Catholics do not believe in “once saved always saved”. We believe that once a person puts their hand to the plough they can turn back.

you keep misquoting my on accident. I never typed that, if you wish to say something to me please just type to something i have said or just but jj at top than type.

Sorry.

If you learn to use the quote feature, it will be more clear which statements belong to whom.

 

[jjsmity]

You know, I think that at the end of the day we’ll just have to disagree. We [Catholics] believe that participation in the Sacraments, prayer, penance and bearing fruit (works) are required for Salvation. I don’t mean to imply that we are ‘earning’ Salvation, because we are absolutely not, just that they are a necessary part and required in order to follow Christ… ‘If any want to become My followers, let them deny themselves and take up their cross and follow Me. Anyone who wants to save his life will lose it; but anyone who loses his life for My sake will find it.’ I believe we can lose Salvation too.

I think there’s a very common pattern emerging these days… disunity, rejection, manipulation of scripture, and a general justification for sin. Christ was very clear when He told us what is required and 2 Timothy 2: 14-15 springs to mind: ‘Remind them of this, and warn them before God that they are to avoid wrangling over words, which does no good but only ruins those who are listening.’

I agree we must disagree on the sacraments being necessary. the rest I think you should come preach at my church.

I guess what I mean to say is that it’s not a one time deal. Jesus gave His life so that we may be saved, but we are required to reciprocate. One declaration of faith is inadequate, especially if we get so caught up in other aspects of life that we have no time for our Lord, regardless of whether we still believe or not… We must keep saying Yes to the Lord. Just believing in the existence of Jesus is not adequate.

Again very good stuff and you would be welcome at my church, We all agree just believing wont do the trick,Though saved past tense is were we would disagree, but that does not mean you can be saved [past ] and than in future lose that salvation. .

I don’t understand when I misquote you. But that said, do you agree with scripture that faith is made complete by works? And that without works, faith would therefore be “incomplete”?

depends what you mean complete, in some ways that yes, sanctification is process over time.

 

[jjsmity]

No JJ, this is not what Catholics believe. Catholics believe, despite what you have been told erroneously that:

1. We are saved by GRACE
2. Through Faith
3. Working in Love.

It’s all by God’s grace. No Catholic believes that we can work our way to salvation. This is error about Catholicism that has been passed on to you. A Catholic hearing this would say

Through Christ’s death on the cross I can say:

a) I was saved.
b) I am being saved.
c) I have hope that I will be saved.

All the above is 100% scriptural.

Is there a point, #1 - #3 or a) - c) that you disagree with? If so, which one?

PnP

thanks for post, I am aware of the catholic view, but catholics also say you can lose that grace and sacraments are needed to receive the grace.

c] is were we would disagree,even saying we can lose salvation I believe we are saved, yet can lose it, like if on train [jesus] will bring you to haven, but you can get of the train, but while on your saved.

What differences?

Not shooting anybody…but if the messenger is giving a confusing (and dangerous) message then perhaps the messenger needs to examine if that “common term” is really the message they want to give…

Peace
James

difference that sacraments are needed for salvation

just the reason for my post.

But how to Baptists DEFINE a sacrament?

How do you know?

Christ paid the price for our sins on the cross. He purchased freedom for us, not license. the fact that we are bought with a price does not mean we are to go on sinning. Rather, we are to bear the fruit that befit repentance. When we are not producing good fruit, we are either rotting on the vine or not remaining in the Vine.

Catholics do not believe in “once saved always saved”. We believe that once a person puts their hand to the plough they can turn back.

Sorry.

If you learn to use the quote feature, it will be more clear which statements belong to whom.

I am referring to catholic language on sacraments.

because you said and catholics say water baptism is needed for forgiveness of sins. we see it as a outward sigh of a believer after faith in jesus.

I dont disagree with what you have said in response to purgatory at all.

ok my bad, I shall, usually in big hurry.

 

[sudy]

Turning our backs on sin and washing our robes clean are both biblical, receiving the Body and Blood is also biblical. The other sacraments are also biblical, and we are also given tradition. Interestingly enough, all Protestants followed the Church teachings and traditions until around the 1500s, so these early traditions should hold some weight with you.

And, all of the sacraments are foreshadowed in the Old Testament.

It’s late here so here’s a final offering: Matthew 7: 13-14 ‘Enter by the narrow gate, since the road that leads to destruction is wide and spacious, and many take it; but it is a narrow gate and a hard road that leads to life, and only a few find it.’

 

[MarkInOregon]

I believe you misunderstood what I meant when saying muddy the waters me Protestant did it again lol] I meant catholics muddy the gospel message of jesus by adding works etc. I also think some catholics misunderstand what protestants mean by faith alone, as you said in part because of protestants.

What do you think Christ’s gospel message to us is?

“From that time on, Jesus began to preach and say, ‘Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.’”

“Come After me, and I will make you fishers of men.”

“Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you”

“Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect”

“Do to others whatever you would have them do to you…Enter through the narrow gate”

“So by their fruits you will know them.”

"Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven, “but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.”

“The harvest is abundant but the laborers are few, so ask the master of the harvest to send out laborers for his harvest.”

“and whoever does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me”

I tell you, on the day of judgment people will render an account for every careless word they speak"

“Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.”

“For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you ave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me…”

“Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle that for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven”

Are we muddying the Gospel message of Christ or are some diluting it? Are we adding to the Gospel message of Christ or are some just ignoring a part of the message?

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[JRKH]

What do you think Christ’s gospel message to us is?

“From that time on, Jesus began to preach and say, ‘Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.’”

“Come After me, and I will make you fishers of men.”

“Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you”

“Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect”

“Do to others whatever you would have them do to you…Enter through the narrow gate”

“So by their fruits you will know them.”

"Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven, “but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.”

“The harvest is abundant but the laborers are few, so ask the master of the harvest to send out laborers for his harvest.”

“and whoever does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me”

I tell you, on the day of judgment people will render an account for every careless word they speak"

“Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.”

“For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you ave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me…”

“Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle that for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven”
**
Are we muddying the Gospel message of Christ or are some diluting it? Are we adding to the Gospel message of Christ or are some just ignoring a part of the message?**

The peace of Christ,
Mark

(Bolding added)

Excellent question at the end here Mark.

Peace
James

 

[MarkInOregon]

maybe I guess put that way, I see it as a choice not a work as in give me my reward for doing this or earning the free gift. But the salvation is fully done by jesus and given free, we accept and cant earn it in anyway according to protestants. We also do works of love or fruit that comes from that saving faith and holy spirit as the catholic church says, we differ on it adding the salvation jesus already fully achieved on cross.

I think you’re viewing works incorrectly–they do not “earn” us a reward. Our works cannot obligate good to give us a reward. It’s not like if I do xyz God must do X. They are necessary but they do not obligate God.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[jjsmity]

Turning our backs on sin and washing our robes clean are both biblical, receiving the Body and Blood is also biblical. The other sacraments are also biblical, and we are also given tradition. Interestingly enough, all Protestants followed the Church teachings and traditions until around the 1500s, so these early traditions should hold some weight with you.

And, all of the sacraments are foreshadowed in the Old Testament.

It’s late here so here’s a final offering: Matthew 7: 13-14 ‘Enter by the narrow gate, since the road that leads to destruction is wide and spacious, and many take it; but it is a narrow gate and a hard road that leads to life, and only a few find it.’

well I do disagree with your history and literal flesh/blood but that is not on topic. How hard it is for man to be saved in fact impossible, but with god all things are possible.

What do you think Christ’s gospel message to us is?

“From that time on, Jesus began to preach and say, ‘Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.’”

“Come After me, and I will make you fishers of men.”

“Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you”

“Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect”

“Do to others whatever you would have them do to you…Enter through the narrow gate”

“So by their fruits you will know them.”

"Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven, “but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.”

“The harvest is abundant but the laborers are few, so ask the master of the harvest to send out laborers for his harvest.”

“and whoever does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me”

I tell you, on the day of judgment people will render an account for every careless word they speak"

“Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.”

“For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you ave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me…”

“Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle that for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven”

Are we muddying the Gospel message of Christ or are some diluting it? Are we adding to the Gospel message of Christ or are some just ignoring a part of the message?

The peace of Christ,
Mark

I would say add

john 3.16

 

[glendab]

Hello JJsmity.

Just so you know, it doesn’t matter what you think about all the stuff I do as a Catholic, whether or not you think I’m trying to “earn” my way to Heaven by going to Mass and receiving the Sacraments or by helping in the soup kitchen or reading my Bible, whatever. It doesn’t matter one little bit. I’d still do them and I’ll still be judged on them and not by you but by God. So I’m pretty confident that I’m doing the stuff my Heavenly Father wants me to. And His is the* only* opinion that matters in the long run. If I am running so as to win, oh silly me, St. Paul said that, and I think he was talking about works. You really can’t get out of doing SOMETHING for God. There is no such thing as getting saved as in once and done and it does souls a grave disservice to teach them so. And that is being charitable. God won’t be so charitable when He judges those who try to teach others falsely.

Glenda

 

[jjsmity]

Hello JJsmity.

Just so you know, it doesn’t matter what you think about all the stuff I do as a Catholic, whether or not you think I’m trying to “earn” my way to Heaven by going to Mass and receiving the Sacraments or by helping in the soup kitchen or reading my Bible, whatever. It doesn’t matter one little bit. I’d still do them and I’ll still be judged on them and not by you but by God. So I’m pretty confident that I’m doing the stuff my Heavenly Father wants me to. And His is the* only* opinion that matters in the long run. If I am running so as to win, oh silly me, St. Paul said that, and I think he was talking about works. You really can’t get out of doing SOMETHING for God. There is no such thing as getting saved as in once and done and it does souls a grave disservice to teach them so. And that is being charitable. God won’t be so charitable when He judges those who try to teach others falsely.

Glenda

amen to all that… but one small thing nothing in bible said getting saved? I would reread bible cover to cover. But great post thanks, you sound like a baptist.

Loved this

" and I’ll still be judged on them and not by you but by God."

 

[killedbyanangel]

Epehesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Honestly, I don’t know exactly why I’m submitting a post. takes faith to understand it in the first place. Some people fallow Christ but do so in the hopes of going to a better place after they die! or to show others that they are holy by their understaning of ‘it’,that’s been my experience. Others, because they love the Lordbut for whatever reason choose to explore those avenues of love and what it really means. Also what “it” meant to Christ Almighty… He found out exactly what love was by allowing it to lead him to the cross. Maybe it was an experiment in faith for him, I think he knew from the second he started out on this earth that he was destined for the cross, or after he left to start a ministry, he was also a man, not only the Son of God so he put up with temptation everyday of his life. Everyday the Devil tempted Christ the Lord himself with outlandish questions about who he really was and what he was doing. Any question to make the Lord acknowledge the presence of the Devil, Christ never submitted. Christ never lost a battle… That’s a clue into the mystery of whether you should seek works of men to gain entrance into “heaven”. That’s utterly rediculous in my book because, without sounding half baked,-, 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. He was the only one to overcome the world, I’m not implying that we can’t make mistakes because He was the only one blameless and PERFECT. What more can be about him that will convince that part of you that causes you to doubt some moments and ask questions, like what can “i” do to get in to heaven?". Or “How can I get 'something” that will bless me in life? or whatever question you can come up with to present to the Lord Jesus, Chances are that you won’t get anything but a mixed bunch of choas in return… You see that Lord Jesus defeated that serpent, the devil at the cross two thousand years ago by living a sin free life in the presence of the Preditor. We are asked to do the same as Christ , the task much more similar than you might think. So, you as an individual can have same “experiment”. Just do your best. Christ did better! the same as what Christ endured in his time is still in place today as we fight through for the love of Christ and for his victory as he received it on earth. The distractions, different, the days are truely coming to an end. Christ lives never to see that cross again.
1 Tim 4:1 KJV) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the
faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; (NIV) "follow deceiving spirits and things
taught by demons.
I have no advice to give you nor solid doctrinal answer, I’d suppose some you readers might demand. I’m just a poor sinner myself trying to make my way through this Death Cult Society. I don’t see the world as you do with a hymn that closes with life on earth forever amen, amen. I know that some of your beliefs are in a heaven on earth. I have news. the earth is going to be consumed one day by our SUN. but you knew that. know that there are spirits that would like to take you to a “better place”, which also includes places where Christ isn’t . But we are all tested for some reason or another. Ultimately, it’s up to The Lord where you go, but while you are on earth this short amount of time you surely must watch with a weary eye every spirit you meet. You will never know the type of spirit you are dealing with unless you know who you are communicating with. Read your KJV Bible. I pomise you when you come to your senses, You’ll weep, but have no reconciliation for past events… What’s done is done, no going back. You’ll know it, and you’ll hate it. My point, trust in God. He has never failed!

 

[Bayou_Catholic]

Maybe a catholic would better understand by Jesus alone. Protestant believe that our salvation comes from Jesus death on the cross for all our sins when we put our faith in him. It is not a mental faith or belief, but a trust in him as savior to pay the price of sin we could not, so when god looks at us on judgment day he can look on Jesus as perfect sacrifice for sins. However this also includes repentance from sin, asking forgiveness for those sins to god, being born again or a change of heart and asking Jesus into your heart as lord and savior.** It is not to say again**, a simple mental faith/belief in god/bible/Jesus as James rightly rejects.

A non-Catholic coworker has stated to me something very similar to what you’ve laid out here. He is a Baptist Deacon (identifies with SBC). However, he has noted that his congregation and church leadership are divided on the issue. The more popular belief within his church is OSAS associated with a mental & emotional faith/belief… one can have faith with no works, but once saved always saved. I’ve opted not to include his name or church to respect his privacy on the matter. Especially, since it is a dividing issue for his church community.

 

[sudy]

well I do disagree with your history and literal flesh/blood but that is not on topic. How hard it is for man to be saved in fact impossible, but with god all things are possible.

John 14: 6-7 Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you know me, you will know my Father also. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.’

Jesus is the truth. Jesus is true God and true man.

I would say add

john 3.16

John 3: 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him may not perish but may have eternal life.

The quote that you believe in. But Jesus qualifies everything that He says to us. If you read further into the Gospel of John… you’ll reach

–John 6: 35-36 Jesus said to them, ‘I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to Me will never be hungry, and whoever believes in Me will never be thirsty. But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet you do not believe.’

and

–John 6: 51 Very truly, I tell you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that comes down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live for ever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.

and then

–John 6: 53-58 Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Those who eat My flesh and drink My blood have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day; for My flesh is true food and My blood is true drink. Those who eat My flesh and drink My blood abide in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats Me will live because of Me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which your ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this bread will live for ever.’

Now we come to the Lord’s Supper.

Matthew 26: 26-28 While they were eating, Jesus took a loaf of bread, and after blessing it He broke it, gave it to the disciples, and said, ‘Take, eat; this is My body.’ Then He took a cup, and after giving thanks He gave it to them, saying, ‘Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins…’

You have built your life around the one comment about salvation. Do you not see the error of taking only one truth that Jesus has said, without taking everything that Jesus has said, as truth?

Btw, I was thinking about this whole thread yesterday. It seems that Protestants misunderstand Catholics about works, while Catholics misunderstand Protestants about Faith… but the truth is that Catholics don’t look at works as ‘earning’ salvation… we don’t reckon them up to determine whether we’ve gained enough points to enter heaven… what we really do is hope for heaven… we know that we are sinners and aren’t worthy of heaven but we try to do our best to follow Christ in all His teachings and hope for salvation.

 

[sudy]

I meant to include: Faith, Hope and Charity.

 

[JRKH]

To be fair - and in the interest of clarity - it should be said that the Church DOES speak of “merit” in connection with faith and works.

The word “merit” appears 30 times in the Catechism…not in the sense of “earning salvation”…but depending on how one uses it in daily conversation, it might give that impression,

The same thing can be true of a word like “worthy”…which is used in the mass as “…Count us worthy…”

Then there is the matter of “indulgences” which, rightly understood, are not a problem but it can require some explanation to get to that “right” understanding.

Anyway - just thought I would toss this out there. These are all things that can be easily misunderstood by those (Catholic or non-Catholic) who are not well versed in the faith.

Peace
James

 

[Ignatius]

Actually, the majority of Evangelicals, Baptists and Non Denominational Protestants I know believe that it is exactly what you say it is not. That would make it a Protestant, not really a Catholic, misunderstanding.