By grace alone through faith alone - why this is true and we should not fight this. Advice from Pope Benedict

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To James248 from tgGodsway,

I hear what you are saying in the gist of all that has been said. I think you might be looking for a “one size” fits all when it comes to theological statements from the bible. But each author tackles the subject of eternal life from specific angles. For instance, the apostle Paul talks about it from a legal standpoint calling it justification apart from works,(Eph. 2:8) and many other scriptures. In the narratives of Jesus, found in John’s gospel, justification is not brought up but the simple belief in Christ is, along with numerous passages with the faith-alone concept. Just to “believe” is enough to have eternal life, based on the numerous passages in John. For John, eternal life is obtained simply by believing that Jesus is the Christ. I would argue that John’s gospel is the only gospel that actually spells out the call to eternal life, where Matthew, Mark, and Luke do not. John’s gospel is called the Evangelistic gospel because of that fact. Listen to one particular verse in John 20:30,31 "And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples,
which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

St. Luke’s version of receiving the Holy Spirit in the Acts 2 account is a debated passage among Catholic Christians and evangelicals. I do not believe when they were “filled with the holy Spirit” that this Act 2:4 event was some kind of regeneration or new birth. It was not. These same believers received a regeneration of spirit in John 20 (50 days earlier) when Jesus breathed on them and said, receive the holy Spirit. Luke said, “their minds were open and they understood the scriptures.” But again, the word justification is not present, nor the word regeneration (Titus 3:5) These terms point to the same conclusion of eternal life yet not every author will approach the subject from the same angle, but as you connect the theological dots, you should be able to see it.
 
tgGodsway said:
To James248 from tgGodsway,

In the narratives of Jesus, found in John’s gospel, justification is not brought up but the simple belief in Christ is, along with numerous passages with the faith-alone concept. Just to “believe” is enough to have eternal life, based on the numerous passages in John. For John, eternal life is obtained simply by believing that Jesus is the Christ. I would argue that John’s gospel is the only gospel that actually spells out the call to eternal life, where Matthew, Mark, and Luke do not. John’s gospel is called the Evangelistic gospel because of that fact. Listen to one particular verse in John 20:30,31 "And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples,
which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
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Mark’s Gospel spells it out pretty clearly:

As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”** 18And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. 19 You know the commandments, ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’”**

As does Luke’s:

25 [j]There was a scholar of the law[k] who stood up to test him and said, “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 Jesus said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read it?” 27 He said in reply, “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your being, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 He replied to him, “You have answered correctly; do this and you will live.”

John even speaks of works in regards to salvation: look at John 6.
Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died; 50 this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die. 51** I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.**”

52 The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.” 59 These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

And Paul teaches justification apart from the works of the Law, that is, the Law of Moses.
 
Let’s all look at what James has to say.

James 2:14-26
**14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? **15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? 17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 Indeed someone may say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. 19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. 20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” 24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? 26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Paul says the same thing in 1 Corinthians:
1 Cor 7:19
Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts.

And Galatians:
Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
 
tgGodsway
James248 from tgGodsway,
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I hear what you are saying in the gist of all that has been said. I think you might be looking for a “one size” fits all when it comes to theological statements from the bible.
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I don’t think James248 is attempting to put justification into a “one size” fits all paradigm.

Why?

Well I cannot speak for James248, but James248 has already differentiated the “moment” of justification, from the following lifelong process of further justification earlier in this very thread.
Ephesians 2:8 which you appealed to says nothing about justification by faith alone (Do you need “hope”? Do you need “repentance”? What kind of “works” is Ephesians 2:8-9 referring to? What kind of “works” are NOT included in Ephesians 2:8-9?).

And later on tonight, I will address why this is the case. (Hint: Ephesians 2:8-9 concerns the moment of justification. Ephesians 2:10 almost certainly to the following lifelong process that follows. Which is WHY these same Ephesians are warned by Jesus, if they don’t DO the WORKS they did at first, they will have their “lampstands” removed in the Book of Revelation.)
 
To James248 from tgGodsway
Your rebuttal using Mark’s gospel of the rich young ruler (for one) is not a call to eternal life in my view. Context matters. In all actuality, Jesus never answered his pointed question: Good teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? If you want to understand the dynamic of what is going on in this passage you must first understand how this rich young ruler had no concept of how to have eternal life whatsoever. He was convinced that it came through keeping the law to which he claimed to keep. But the law was not given for the purpose of obtaining eternal life. The law was given specifically to show the impossibility of obtaining eternal life because of man’s sinful nature. The Law had no power to save. The Church at Rome understood this: See Romans 3:20.

Secondly, this man did not know who Jesus was. He called him good teacher to which Jesus asked him why do you call me good? Only God is good! (Reading in between the lines will suggest that Jesus, being the eternal Son who came in flesh, was good because he was God. This would have been the starting line for the rich young ruler, but he never got started. He could not see it. He did not have this necessary divine revelation. (see 1st. John 5:1) He thought Jesus was good because He too kept the Law. But the Law was written for sinners, to which Jesus was not. But since the ruler insisted that he had kept the Law since his youth, Jesus played along by added more weight, or duty, to his so-called practice of the Law. It was brilliant. Jesus used the requirements of the Law as leverage to help the ruler understand that it can’t be kept. So the ruler lied when he said that he kept it from his youth. Jesus knew he lied but obviously played along.

“Sell all that you have and give it to the poor and come follow Me.” He went away sorrowful because he was rich. How hard is it for a rich man (who trust in his riches) to enter the kingdom of God= to enter God’s way of doing things?

Seeing that scripture interprets scripture, we cannot assume there is a direct call to eternal life in this passage. When you compare the open call of Christ to eternal life found in John’s gospel, Mark’s narrative looks nothing like it. I’ll give you an example of what I’m talking about: Jn. 3:15 says, “Whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. Jn. 3:16 says, “ For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” John 3:36 says, “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life….” Jn. 5:24 says, “Most assuredly, I say to you he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life . . .” Jn. 6:40 says, “… everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life…” Jn. 6:47 says, “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.”

The common denominator for eternal life is to simply believe in Jesus Christ, a concept supported and solidified throughout the New Testament. This same concept is not found in Mark’s passage. Why not? Because this narrow point of theology was not the intent of the authors narrative. The same can be said of Luke’s gospel. The repetitious call, with the common denominator “to believe” cannot be overlooked or dismissed. A “works” gospel is not found anywhere in the Old or New Testament but to the contrary.

I’ll have to come back later to address those figures of speech issues you mentioned in John 6 and the James passages

Bye for now.
 
TgGodsway.

Ephesians 2:8 which you appealed to says nothing about justification by faith alone.

Why not?
Because for starters it never SAYS you are justified by faith ALONE.

The “ALONE” is ADDED by your tradition of men to the verses to get that.
Also elsewhere St. Paul talks of other things necessary in the plan of salvation. (What about “hope” for example?)

ROMANS 8:24 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?

Does THIS mean you are saved by hope ALONE? No!
Also there are differing kinds of laws.

For example considering the Mosaic Law St. Paul was “blameless” (Philippians 3:6).

But concerning the moral law St. Paul was “foremost among sinners” (1st Timothy 1:15).
Faith ALONE ignores the lifelong process of justification and reduces salvation down to a mere moment.
Ephesians 2:8 discusses that “moment” of salvation (but then comes the process).

EPHESIANS 2:8-9 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God – 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast.

The “saved” here in Ephesians 2:8 talks of the moment of salvation. Not the lifelong process that follows.

Ephesians 2:8 is talking in context about when we were dead through our trespasses that we were made alive with Christ.

EPHESIANS 2:5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)
Your tradition of Ephesians 2:8 ignores Ephesians 2:10 (which is what we are called to in the lifelong process AFTER that moment). WHY were we created? For good works!

EPHESIANS 2:10 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Well doesn’t this mean you can “boast” then? Isn’t this “works righteousness”?

No!

Why?

Because THESE works are done connected to the Vine. These works are done in grace. These works are animated by the Holy Spirit and have Christ working in you and through you.

THAT’S the context of THESE saving works.

How do I know?

Because the verses discuss Christ working in us. These are works “which God prepared”.

EPHESIANS 2:10 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, **which God prepared **beforehand, that we should walk in them.

And St. Paul repeats this concept several verses later . . . .

EPHESIANS 3:20-21 20 Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.
And lastly your tradition of interpreting Ephesians 2:8 to somehow come up with faith ALONE, ignores what happens when Ephesians DON’T DO the “WORK” they did at first.

(The Ephesians get told they will get their lampstand removed in such cases).

REVELATION 2:1-5 1 "To the angel of the church in Ephesus (these are “Ephesians”) write: 'The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 "'I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear evil men but have tested those who call themselves apostles but are not, and found them to be false; 3 I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name’s sake, and you have not grown weary. 4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.
Ephesians 2:8 does not teach justification by faith ALONE (nor does ANY verse).
 
Thank you again Cathoholic,
In one sense I agree with you and in another sense, you are dead wrong. (with all respect!)

Here’s is my reasoning. You are right that Ephesians 2:8 does not have the word “alone” in it. Theologian added this word, (not to the verse) but to their theological reasoning and understanding. If You are saved(=delivered) by grace (=unearned favor) through faith (that is the exercising of it) and that not of yourselves; it is the GIFT of God. v9 not of WORKS, lest anyone should boast.” This action involved FAITH ALONE. Why? Because your good works did not play a part in this kind of salvation transaction. The fact that you have favor with God and exercised your faith when you heard the message of salvation and you then believed it, your faith alone was the only thing in that process that made it all happen. Your works were not involved in this kind of salvation. This is why Paul could say that it was a GIFT to you.

You didn’t have to pull out your good works-wallet and pay for eternal life, as if you could actually be good enough or do enough works to earn it, which gets me to my next point:

You said, and I quote: “Faith ALONE ignores the lifelong process of justification and reduces salvation down to a mere moment.” This is brilliant! Yes you are right it does. But if you will indulge me for a moment I would like to disagree on just one point. Justification has never been a life- long process. Justification is a one-time for all time ACT, where the judge hit the gavel (at the moment of your faith) and looks directly in your face and said to you, “innocent!!” based on the fact that the punishment for all of your guilt was taken from you by our Lord and savior Jesus Christ when He died on the cross. Your faith in these facts qualified you to become the beneficiary of His work. You enter the family of God in that moment, not at the end of your life, as some profess. Sanctification (of the soul) on the other hand, is the lifelong process, as you put it. This is what you find in Ephesians 2:10.

Justification is what Abraham received when he BELIEVED GOD in Gen.15:6. Sanctification is what happened over time when his faith matured and was proven before men when it climaxed in the offering of his only son on the altar. It was only then that St. James could say, Abraham was the friend of God.

To sanctify means to “set apart from sinful living, unto holy living.” It is a process that works itself out over time. It is not guaranteed that every Catholic Christian will allow sanctification to happen. It is not an automatic. It is your deliberate and purposeful walk forward in faith.

Back to the theological equation: The reason why a Catholic Christian cannot boast before God is because his works were NOT included in the salvation transaction. He cannot say, “Hey God! the reason why I’m standing here in heaven instead of hell is because I did this… and I did that… I was faithful in this… I was faithful in that!!

Why can’t boasting be possible? Because eternal life is too costly, and we don’t have enough good works to really pay for it. Anyone who thinks we can is kidding themselves.

So then WHY should we do any good works at all if we are already eternally saved? This is the verse 10 you brought up. You were created for good works. But the good works were never intended to “help God’ save you. Good works were simply a token of your GRATITUDE and LOVE back to Him. This is the kind of good works that matters to God.
 
tgGodsway said:
Thank you again Cathoholic,
In one sense I agree with you and in another sense, you are dead wrong. (with all respect!)

Here’s is my reasoning. You are right that Ephesians 2:8 does not have the word “alone” in it. Theologian added this word, (not to the verse) but to their theological reasoning and understanding. If You are saved(=delivered) by grace (=unearned favor) through faith (that is the exercising of it) and that not of yourselves; it is the GIFT of God. v9 not of WORKS, lest anyone should boast.” This action involved FAITH ALONE. Why? Because your good works did not play a part in this kind of salvation transaction. The fact that you have favor with God and exercised your faith when you heard the message of salvation and you then believed it, your faith alone was the only thing in that process that made it all happen. Your works were not involved in this kind of salvation. This is why Paul could say that it was a GIFT to you.

You didn’t have to pull out your good works-wallet and pay for eternal life, as if you could actually be good enough or do enough works to earn it, which gets me to my next point:

You said, and I quote: “Faith ALONE ignores the lifelong process of justification and reduces salvation down to a mere moment.” This is brilliant! Yes you are right it does. But if you will indulge me for a moment I would like to disagree on just one point. Justification has never been a life- long process. Justification is a one-time for all time ACT, where the judge hit the gavel (at the moment of your faith) and looks directly in your face and said to you, “innocent!!” based on the fact that the punishment for all of your guilt was taken from you by our Lord and savior Jesus Christ when He died on the cross. Your faith in these facts qualified you to become the beneficiary of His work. You enter the family of God in that moment, not at the end of your life, as some profess. Sanctification (of the soul) on the other hand, is the lifelong process, as you put it. This is what you find in Ephesians 2:10.

Justification is what Abraham received when he BELIEVED GOD in Gen.15:6. Sanctification is what happened over time when his faith matured and was proven before men when it climaxed in the offering of his only son on the altar. It was only then that St. James could say, Abraham was the friend of God.

To sanctify means to “set apart from sinful living, unto holy living.” It is a process that works itself out over time. It is not guaranteed that every Catholic Christian will allow sanctification to happen. It is not an automatic. It is your deliberate and purposeful walk forward in faith.

Back to the theological equation: The reason why a Catholic Christian cannot boast before God is because his works were NOT included in the salvation transaction. He cannot say, “Hey God! the reason why I’m standing here in heaven instead of hell is because I did this… and I did that… I was faithful in this… I was faithful in that!!

Why can’t boasting be possible? Because eternal life is too costly, and we don’t have enough good works to really pay for it. Anyone who thinks we can is kidding themselves.

So then WHY should we do any good works at all if we are already eternally saved? This is the verse 10 you brought up. You were created for good works. But the good works were never intended to “help God’ save you. Good works were simply a token of your GRATITUDE and LOVE back to Him. This is the kind of good works that matters to God.
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Your commentary contradicts the opinion of those who were contemporaries of Paul and James, the Fathers of the Church.
 
James248 said:
You forget the other quotes of the Fathers who are of the opinion Abraham was justified before God and that we are justified by works.

Clement of Rome

Let us therefore join with those to whom grace is given by God. Let us clothe ourselves in concord, being humble and self- controlled, keeping ourselves far from all backbiting and slander, being justified by works and not by words. . . . Why was our Father Abraham blessed? Was it not because of his deeds of justice and truth, wrought in faith? . . . So we, having been called through his will in Christ Jesus, were not justified through ourselves or through our own wisdom or understanding or piety or works which we wrought in holiness of heart, but through faith, whereby the almighty God justified all men. (Letter to the Corinthians 30:3, 31:2, 32:3-4 [A.D. 110]).

Theophilus of Antioch

Give studious attention to the prophetic writings, and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. He who gave the mouth for speech and formed the ears for hearing and made eyes for seeing will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things, which neither has eye seen nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man. For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries and fornications and homosexuality and avarice and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish, and in the end such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (To Autolycas 1:14 [ca. A.D. 181]).

Clement of Alexandria

When we hear, ‘Your faith has saved you,’ we do not understand the Lord to say simply that they will be saved who have believed in whatever manner, even if works have not followed. To begin with, it was to the Jews alone that he spoke this phrase, who had lived in accord with the law and blamelessly and who had lacked only faith in the Lord (Stromateis or Miscellanies 6:14:108:4 [post A.D. 202]).

Origen

Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James (Commentaries on John 19:6 [A.D. 226-232]).

Cyprian

You, then, who are rich and wealthy, buy for yourself from Christ gold purified in fire, for with your filth, as if burned away in the fire; you can be like pure gold, if you are cleansed by almsgiving and by works of justice. Buy yourself a white garment so that, although you had been naked like Adam and were formerly frightful and deformed, you may be clothed in the white garment of Christ. You who are a matron rich and wealthy, anoint not your eyes with the antimony of the devil, but with the salve of Christ, so that you may at last come to see God, when you have merited before God both by your works and by your manner of living (Works and Almsgiving 14 [A.D. 252]).

Aphracrtes

Great is the gift which he that is good has given to us. While not forcing us, and in spite of our sins he wants us to be justified. While he is in no way aided by our good works, he heals us that we may be pleasing in his sight. When we do not wish to ask of him, he is angry with us. He calls out to all of us constantly; “Ask and receive, and when you seek, you shall find” (Treatises 23:48 [A.D. 336-345]).

Gregory of Nyssa

Paul, joining righteousness to faith and weaving them together, constructs of them the breastplates for the infantryman, armoring the soldier properly and safely on both sides. A soldier cannot be considered safely armored when either shield is disjoined from the other. Faith without works of justice is not sufficient for salvation; neither is righteous living secure in itself of salvation, if it is disjoined from faith (Homilies on Ecclesiastes 8 [ca. A.D. 335- 394]).

John Chrysostom

He that believes in the Son has everlasting life." Is it enough, then, to believe in the Son,’ someone will say, ‘in order to have everlasting life?’ By no means! Listen to Christ declare this himself when he says, ‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord! Lord!” shall enter into the kingdom of heaven’; and the blasphemy against the Spirit is alone sufficient to cast him into hell. But why should I speak of a part of our teaching? For if a man believe rightly in the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Spirit, but does not live rightly, his faith will avail him nothing toward salvation (Homilies on the Gospel of John 31:1[circa A.D. 391]).
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James248 said:
Continued

Jerome

But since in the Law no one is justified before God, it is evident that the just man lives by faith.’ It should be noted that he does not say that a man, a person, lives by faith, lest it be thought that he is condemning good works. Rather, he says the ‘just’ man lives by faith. He implies thereby that
whoever would be faithful and would conduct his life according to the faith can in no other way arrive at the faith or live in it except first he be a just man of pure life, coming up to the faith by certain degrees (Commentaries on Galatians 2:3:11 [A.D. 386]).

Augustine

“He was handed over for our offenses, and he rose again for our justification.” What does this mean, “for our justification?” So that he might justify us, so that he might make us just. You will be a work of God, not only because you are a man, but also because you are just. For it is better that you be just than that you are a man. If God made you a man, and you made your-self just, something you were doing would be better than what God did. But God made you without any cooperation on your part. You did not lend your consent so that God could make you. How could you have consented, when you did not exist? But he who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent. He made you without your knowledge, but he does not justify you without your willing it (Sermons 169:13 [inter A.D. 391-430]).

But we know that God does not hear sinners: but if any man is a worshiper of God and does his will, that man God will hear. He still speaks as one only anointed. For God does listen to sinners too. If God did not listen to sinners, it would have been all in vain for the publican to cast down his eyes to the ground and strike his breast saying: “Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner.” And that confession merited justification, just as the blind man merited enlightenment (Homilies on the Gospel of John 44:13 [A.D. 416]).
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James248 said:
There is no tension between Paul and James; neither of them teach salvation by faith alone.

This is how Augustine knew it:

This, in fact, is what some had thought even in the time of the apostles. for at that time there were some who did not understand certain rather obscure passages of St. Paul, and who thought therefore that he had said: Let us do evil that there may come good [Rom 3:8]. They thought that this was what St. Paul meant when he said: The law entered in that sin might abound. And where sin abounded, grace did more abound [Rom 5:20]. (no. 21)

When St. Paul says, therefore, that man is justified by faith and not by the observance of the law, he does not mean that good works are not necessary or that it is enough to receive and to profess the faith and no more. What he means rather and what he wants us to understand is that man can be justified by faith, even though he has not previously performed any works of the law. (no. 21)

. I do not see why the Lord said: If you will enter into life, keep the commandments [Matt 19:17], or why, after He had said this, He listed those which one must keep in order to live a good life [Matt 19:18-19], if one can obtain eternal life without keeping the commandments, by faith alone, which without works is dead [Jas 2:14]. And then, too, how will the Lord be able to say to those whom He will place on His left hand: Go you into the everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels [Matt 25:41]? For it is evident that He rebukes them, not because they did not believe in Him, but because they did not perform good works. [Matt 25:44] (no. 25)
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tgGodsway to Cathoholic:
If You are saved(=delivered) by grace (=unearned favor) through faith (that is the exercising of it) and that not of yourselves; it is the GIFT of God. v9 not of WORKS, lest anyone should boast.” This action involved FAITH ALONE. Why? Because your good works did not play a part in this kind of salvation transaction. The fact that you have favor with God and exercised your faith
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Then you don’t understand what I am talking about.

I’ll get back to you on this later tgGodsway.
 
tgGodsway.

Why do you reduce grace down to “unearned favor” only?

I affirm grace is “unearned favor”, but grace goes beyond mere unearned favor.

Grace, at least saving grace includes God’s Divine life IN you.

It is a participation or koinonia in the life of God.

Why do Bible Christians have such a hard time affirming this? I don’t understand that. There are about a dozen or so places St. Paul asserts this participation.

Do you affirm this (because if you don’t, I’ll be happy to put up the verses and the CCC teaching too).

Verses like God is AT WORK.

Where is God at work?

God is at work IN YOU.

Verses like It is no longer I who lives.

OK. Who is it that lives in you and through you then if it is “no longer I who live”?

It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives IN ME.

Are these works in us and through us worthless concerning ongoing justification?

No. They are necessary (according to your state in life) to your ongoing process of justification.

Far from the Catholic denying the sufficiency of the work of Chrust, it is YOU who are denying the ongoing nature of Christ’s WORK in us and through us.

With our cooperation to be sure (just like we cooperate with the gift of faith too).

So your complaints about “works” are a partial truth.

I affirm ALL the Bible verses on salvation. ALL of them.

You do not.

You are forced to say things that are not in Scripture because of the truncated view of salvation you have bought into (that was put forth by mere men).

You cannot get past your blinders and see the majesty and truth of God CONTINUING to WORK in us (which is WHY we as Catholics affirm “grace workings”).
 
If You are saved(=delivered) by grace (=unearned favor) through faith (that is the exercising of it) and that not of yourselves; it is the GIFT of God. v9 not of WORKS, lest anyone should boast.” This action involved FAITH ALONE . . .
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This grace “not of yourselves” is irrelevant.

Why?

Because we don’t pretend we earn grace of “ourselves”.

By the way . . . You did not EARN “faith of yourself” either.

God gives all some faith to get them started. God makes the first move in salvation (this is what God’s “prevenient” graces are.).

Then this faith you are gifted along with your “natural” faith or “belief”, gets further supernaturalized in Baptism.

At Baptism you receive the gifts of supernatual hope and supernatural charity too.

And according to St. Paul, this “charity” is MORE IMPORTANT than faith! (See 1st Cor. 13:13)

That’s an odd thing for St. Paul to say if he asserted justification by faith ALONE.

If we were justified by faith ALONE, St. Paul OUGHT to say, of faith, hope and charity, abide these three, but the GREATEST of these is FAITH because after all, you are justified by faith ALONE.

But St. Paul never says such nonsense.

St. Peter warns of people who get “our brother Paul” confused.

St. Peter doesn’t say they are “faithless” men.

St. Peter warns against “lawless” men.

Men who say there is no law needed in any sense. And in so doing, they confuse especially St. Paul’s writings.

This kind of thing . . .
If You are saved(=delivered) by grace (=unearned favor) through faith (that is the exercising of it) and that not of yourselves; it is the GIFT of God. v9 not of WORKS, lest anyone should boast.” This action involved FAITH ALONE . . .
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This kind of thing may give you conscience salve, but you are flogging a straw man.

You are NOT attacking Catholicism, but rather what your preacher says as Catholicism. And she is wrong (or “he” as the case may be).
Incidentally. God’s “prevenient” or initiation of grace can be seen in other areas too.

Like repentance after committing a mortal sin.

You cannot come to repentance on your own mere accord.

You need grace for that too.

God “may” initiate that grace of repentance in you (as St. Paul says), but there is no guarantee of that.
 
Hello Cathoholic, I read your statements and respond here.

I will try to word it differently with the hopes that I can be understood. On the narrow subject of how one receives eternal life, I believe it is a one-time for all-time –act of faith –in the message of the gospel, in a moment of time when that faith is expressed through the divine doorway of grace. When you hear the salvation message and believe it, you enter a spiritual place seated with Christ (Eph. 1:20) called eternal life. You are saved!

This eternal life begins for you from heaven, but in the here and now life. When Jesus spoke of how one receives eternal life in John’s gospel, He always spoke of it as something you can receive right now, not in the future. Actually, the Jewish leaders always believed eternal life was something at the end of their physical life. Jesus countered that belief with His own.

With that said, I acknowledge and agree that there is an “on going” work AFTER eternal life is received. This on-going work of God’s Spirit is NOT a justifying work, (as you on this sight suggested,) but a Sanctifying one. For instance Paul wrote to the Church at :Philippi and said, “for it is God who WORKS in you both TO WILL and to do for His good pleasure.” Phil. 2:13 When Paul said God works in YOU! He was talking to a specific group of people, the Philippian Church. Who were they? They were people who had eternal life. What was Paul saying to them? He was saying, it is God who works in You (Philippian believers) both to will and do for His good pleasure. This passage, and so many like it, are similar to what the great Catholic Reformer, Luther saw from scripture when he read Rom. 1:17, “… the JUST shall live by FAITH.” The justified believers should not refuse to walk by faith, They will need their faith to finish their course in the here and now life.

You asked, and I quote, “Are these works in us and through us worthless concerning ongoing justification?” No! they are not worthless if the justification is the kind that “men” will credit you when they see you do them. This is James’ point of view in James 2.
However, YES! they are worthless IF you are trying to earn a justification before God’s eyes for eternal life. This was Paul’s point in Ro. 4:2 Why cannot anyone see this distinction? God’s eyes or Men’s eyes…

Here’s a question: Why can’t we be a participant in justification before God? … Two reasons: (1) This kind of justification was earned by Christ alone when He died a sinner’s death. In other words, His sacrifice on the cross 2000 years ago paid in full (our sin debt) when He said, “It is Finished!”

He earned our total privilege to have eternal life when He died and rose again on the third day. If we think we need to help God out by finishing the work with some kind of perpetual, bloodless, sacrifice, we are kidding ourselves. Moving on: When we come to believe who He is and what He did, we become the beneficiaries of His finished work.

The second reason why we cannot help God out in justification is because (2) even on our best day, our works are not good enough to pay or help pay the sin debt. It is too expensive, AND it is already paid for in full. Jesus said It is FINISHED.

You also asked: If we were justified by faith ALONE, St. Paul OUGHT to say, of faith, hope and charity, abide these three, but the GREATEST of these is FAITH because after all, you are justified by faith ALONE.

You seem to assume that every passage in the bible is all talking about the same thing in it’s context. We have many subjects that have nothing to do with faith alone. I agree LOVE is the greatest if I had to choose. But that is besides the point. If we’re gonna discuss how one is justified and sanctified, we would not go to 1st. Cor. 13 for those specific answers. If I wanted to talk about what is most important virtue between the fruits of the Spirit and the Gifts of the Spirit, I would go to 1st. Cor. 13.

But again, good works have a HUGE place in scripture and the on-going work we have to do is incredibly important. God’s Spirit is at work in us to do Kingdom business here on the earth. But the reason for WORKS is a sideline to what we’ve been debating the last few days.
 
tgGodsway:
Justification is what Abraham received when he BELIEVED GOD in Gen.15:6. . . .
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Is Justification what Abraham received when he OBEYED God and BELIEVED GOD in Gen. 12 too?

Is Justification what Abraham received when he OBEYED God and BELIEVED GOD in Gen. 22 too?

Why not affirm ALL the verses tgGodsway?

Why not affirm this continuing justification (which is a moment followed by a process–a lifelong process) instead of grasping on to a tradition of men that makes void the word of God, by insisting justification is a moment ALONE?
 
However, YES! they are worthless IF you are trying to earn a justification before God’s eyes for eternal life. This was Paul’s point in Ro. 4:2 Why cannot anyone see this distinction?
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I see the distinction just fine. But its a distinction of irrelevance.

Why?

Because I am not talking about either situation you drew out (moment that includes an unearned given faith which I affirm) or works (on your own) being worthless regarding justification (which I also affirm).

So you continue to attack a straw man.

The spiritual man sees the difference between a man’s work united to God verses a man’s workings on his own.

A carnal man does not see such because he has followed after teachings of men over teachings of God. . . . Why cannot anyone see this distinction?
 
tgGodsway:
Here’s a question: Why can’t we be a participant in justification before God? …
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You are rhetorically asking this to me, to ostensibly show me you CANNOT participate in your justification in any way (correct me if I am wrong here on my interpretation of your question please).

This astonishes me that you would say such a thing tgGodsway!

Don’t you “participate” in “faith”? Or do you think faith is ONLY of God, and you cannot reject faith?

Basically you have twisted your own position into such a pretzel, that they have got you re-defining what faith is . . . Or . . . Denying your faith has any kind of participation in salvation (if you follow the logic of your own quote).
 
Cathoholic,
I know you want this to be so, no matter where the biblical facts lead you. But you’re going to have to decide where you’ll place your faith. Will it be in God’s holy and inerrant word, written by holy men of God who were the eye witnesses to Christ? Or, in the traditions of the Roman Church, who came up with this on-going justification idea Centuries after Christ and the Apostolic Church lived and died. This matter was a settled matter for at least three centuries after Paul’s writings. Why was it settled? Because the New Testament Canon settled it! But nonetheless the gist of what Rome came up with by people who wielded political and religious power, flies right in the face of holy men God used to write scripture.
To answer your questions: There is no justification by God found in Genesis 12, or 22. Why would you say there is? If there is, please give me chapter and verse. The only justification is found in verse 6 of chapter 15. This is the only chapter in the entire book of Genesis where God offers His approval to Abraham because of His faith. Abraham’s works when he attempted to sacrifice his son came many years later. His obedience to do it did not earn him another justification before God. But certainly there was a level of sanctification in his life. It was a level that James said made him the friend of God. Can you not reason these facts?..
You never answered my last letter but still came up with more questions, to which I answered.
But I’m getting to think that you are not interested in actually reasoning with the facts. You want to declare things over me and say it’s my tradition. These are all cheap shots to avoid the real facts presented to you. Why do you do this Cathoholic?
 
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