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James248
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How can you say Abraham’s sacrifice of Isaac was his justification before men when no one besides Abraham and his son was there?
Even Paul says that faith alone doesn’t justify: read 1 Corinthians 13.
By grace alone through faith alone - why this is true and we should not fight this. Advice from Pope Benedict
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Even Paul says that faith alone doesn’t justify: read 1 Corinthians 13.
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SyCarl
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You know about Abraham being willing to sacrifice Issac but you weren’t there. The witnesses are those who have read Scripture through the ages.
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TaylorDonBarret
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There are different kinds of faith.
There is a dead faith - mere “head knowledge” or intellectual assent. Such faith does NOT have the power of justification.
But there is also a living faith - faith united to love, or “heart faith.” Such faith does have the power of justification.
“For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.” Romans 10:9-10
There is a dead faith - mere “head knowledge” or intellectual assent. Such faith does NOT have the power of justification.
But there is also a living faith - faith united to love, or “heart faith.” Such faith does have the power of justification.
“For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.” Romans 10:9-10
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James248
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I’m talking about direct witnesses here, of which neither of us is a part of. God was a direct witness: we read in the beginning of the story, “God put Abraham to the test.” God’s Angel spoke to Abraham in these words, “I know now how you fear God, seeing that you did not hide from me your only son.” It’s clear from Genesis that Abraham was being justified before God.
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James248
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You’re forgetting that confessing with one’s mouth is a work.
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SyCarl
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God already knew that Abraham feared God. He didn’t need this to know. It just makes it clear what we were supposed to see in it.
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James248
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The beginning of the text reads, “God put Abraham to the test.” Obviously the two aren’t mutually exclusive. So Abraham is in this story, as James says, is being justified before God.
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James248
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FROM THE LETTER OF ST. SEVERUS OF ANTIOCH TO JULIAN, BISHOP OF HALICARNASSUS
"For you rightly and justly say that the doctors are not in opposition to one another, even as Paul is not in opposition to James when the one says, ‘By faith is a man justified without works,’ while the other wrote, ‘Faith without works is dead’;
because Paul spoke of faith before baptism, which is the perfection of confession out of a pure heart, when it has not previously displayed good works in the world, but such a man is justified by believing and confessing and being baptized; while James referred to faith after baptism, when he said that it is dead without works, if a man does not confirm it by right action. For baptism is the earnest of a good conversation; since even our Lord, who was to us an instructor, after He had hallowed the water and been baptized by John and given us the institution of baptism, Went up to the mountain and underwent a struggle with the tempter and destroyed all his power, thereby guiding us, that we might know that after the divine cleansing we ought to display a contest in deed and to struggle according to law with the adversary, therein displaying our virtues.
"But someone will object, and say, ‘Behold! Paul took Abraham as a proof that a man is justified by faith without works, saying, “Therefore they that are in the faith are blessed with the believing Abraham”; and, “To him that hath not worked but hath believed on Him that can justify sinners his faith is reckoned for righteousness”; while James proved by the case of Abraham that a man is not justified by faith only, but by works confirmed by faith. And how are these not contradictory? for the same Abraham is an example of those who have not worked but believed, and of those who have shown faith by works.’
"For you rightly and justly say that the doctors are not in opposition to one another, even as Paul is not in opposition to James when the one says, ‘By faith is a man justified without works,’ while the other wrote, ‘Faith without works is dead’;
because Paul spoke of faith before baptism, which is the perfection of confession out of a pure heart, when it has not previously displayed good works in the world, but such a man is justified by believing and confessing and being baptized; while James referred to faith after baptism, when he said that it is dead without works, if a man does not confirm it by right action. For baptism is the earnest of a good conversation; since even our Lord, who was to us an instructor, after He had hallowed the water and been baptized by John and given us the institution of baptism, Went up to the mountain and underwent a struggle with the tempter and destroyed all his power, thereby guiding us, that we might know that after the divine cleansing we ought to display a contest in deed and to struggle according to law with the adversary, therein displaying our virtues.
"But someone will object, and say, ‘Behold! Paul took Abraham as a proof that a man is justified by faith without works, saying, “Therefore they that are in the faith are blessed with the believing Abraham”; and, “To him that hath not worked but hath believed on Him that can justify sinners his faith is reckoned for righteousness”; while James proved by the case of Abraham that a man is not justified by faith only, but by works confirmed by faith. And how are these not contradictory? for the same Abraham is an example of those who have not worked but believed, and of those who have shown faith by works.’
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James248
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"I am ready to explain from the Holy Scriptures. For he who examines the periods of Abraham’s life [will see] that he is an instance of both, of the faith which before baptism confesses salvation by believing in Christ, and of that after baptism which is joined with works, which is a reproduction of the old circumcision of the flesh, which drives away the denial of uncircumcision and brings to us the adoption as sons by God; wherefore Moses also was ordered to say thus to Pharaoh; ‘And say thou unto Pharaoh, “Israel is my son, my firstborn.”’ Wherefore Paul writes to the Colossians and says, ’ In whom ye were circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the flesh of sins and in the circumcision of Christ, and ye were buried with Him in baptism.’ Wherefore he said of Abraham also that he was justified by faith without works while he was in uncircumcision, before he was circumcised, thus pointing to confession before baptism without works, writing to the Romans, ‘To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness. How? Not through circumcision, but in uncircumcision.’ And he did not speak falsely; for the words of Moses are witness, which say of God that He said to Abraham, ‘Look toward heaven and tell the stars, if thou. be able to tell them’; and He said, ‘So shall thy seed be’: and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him for righteousness.
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TaylorDonBarret
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Justification certainly requires that we “do” something - and that something we must do is believe in our hearts. Although, this is not something we can do, but something God must do in us. Yet, there is a sharp distinction between this kind of “work” (simply accepting the divine love and mercy into one’s heart) and the kind of “work” that St. Paul condemns:
“You who want to be justified by the law have cut yourselves off from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.” Gal. 5:4
It is vitally important that we do not try to justify ourselves through obedience to the law, as if faith in Christ was not enough. When we do that, it is possible that we risk cutting ourselves off from the grace of Christ.
“For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” Now to one who works, wages are not reckoned as a gift but as something due. But to one who without works trusts him who justifies the ungodly, such faith is reckoned as righteousness.” Romans 4:3-5
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James248
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"But again our master James also took the same Abraham as an example in the faith which saves by works after baptism, he being then circumcised and not in uncircumcision. And we may learn from the Scripture; for he writes thus : ‘Wilt thou know, O man, that faith without works is dead? For our father Abraham was justified by works, when he offered Isaac his son as a burnt-sacrifice. Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was made perfect. And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him for righteousness: and He was called his friend.”’ It is easy again for one .who reads the writings of Moses to learn from the book of Genesis that Abraham, after he was circumcised, offered Isaac as a burnt-sacrifice and fulfilled the commandment and was justified by works, giving us an instance of faith after baptism, which is a spiritual circumcision, justifying a man by works; for it is written, ‘Abraham was circumcised, and Ishmael his son, and those born in his house, and those bought with his money from strange peoples’; and then God, trying Abraham, said to him, ‘Take thy son, whom thou lovest, even Isaac, and get thee to the high land; and offer him there as a burnt-sacrifice.’ Accordingly these words of the apostles and those written in the old law do not seem to be in opposition to one another, but to be one, and to have been spoken by one spirit concerning faith before baptism, which justifies the man who presents himself upon a short confession only without action, baptism being full salvation if a man depart from the world forthwith, and another faith, which is after baptism, which requires the proof of good works and also raises the man to the measure of perfection and to high place. And so also James very properly says of it that faith is made perfect by works; since the wise Paul also in another place gives similar teaching respecting faith, saying that it is made perfect through works: for the Galatians, after they had been baptized and been reckoned sons of God through the Spirit, were perverted to Judaism and were circumcised, since they vainly supposed that by the circumcision of their flesh they gained something in Christ beyond the uncircumcised; and he wrote to reprove them, saying, ‘In Jesus Christ neither circumcision nor uncircumcision availeth anything; but faith which is worked out by love.’ From this also, therefore, it is plain that that kind of faith after baptism is of avail and saves with which work is joined and united in love; and what work done in love is Paul declares and says, ‘Love is long-suffering and kind; love is not envious and excited and puffed up, nor is it ashamed; and it seeketh not its own, and is not provoked; and it imputeth no evil; and rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; and it hopeth all things, and endureth all things. Love doth not quickly fail.’ These things are for the direction of action and labour and toil, that many may be profited and be saved, when united to faith. And who will dare to find fault? for respecting this our Lord also said, ‘If ye love Me, keep My commandments.’
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TaylorDonBarret
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Yes I think it is extremely important to know the difference between INITIAL JUSTIFICATION and the INCREASE IN JUSTIFICATION.
INITIAL JUSTIFICATION gets you into Heaven, and the only requirement is to believe in the heart.
INCREASES IN JUSTIFICATION take place through Sacraments and works of love, and IMO would properly be associated with an increase in the Beatific vision.
INITIAL JUSTIFICATION gets you into Heaven, and the only requirement is to believe in the heart.
INCREASES IN JUSTIFICATION take place through Sacraments and works of love, and IMO would properly be associated with an increase in the Beatific vision.
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James248
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Your post is not accurate, to put it mildly. One cannot increase in justification if they aren’t initially justified; one cannot enter the Kingdom if they’ve received initial justification but don’t increase in justification. Why else does Peter tell us to make every effort to confirm our election?
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TaylorDonBarret
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Justified is justified. If your justified, your justified. Period. You can fall away and lose justification, but as long as you are justified, then you are justified. Period. There is no strict need to increase in justification if the only goal is to get into Heaven. One would be wise to make every effort to confirm their election and increase their justification because, with each growth in Christ, they become less and less likely to fall away, and their rewards in Heaven grow greater and greater, and most of all, because they grow closer and closer to Christ. But, such is not a requirement simply for getting into Heaven. The only thing one needs to get into Heaven is justification - initial justification. Now, if one is justified, and if one fails to obey God, then they run the risk of losing their justification. This is true. But they do not need to increase their justification in order to make Heaven, they only need to preserve their initial justification in order to do so - and all that is required for that is to keep Christ in their hearts. “For if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.”
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James248
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Depends on what law we’re talking about: the Mosaic Law, or the New Law.
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James248
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One cannot preserve their initial justification. When we are baptized, we receive white garments which we stain with our sin. It’s a lot harder to clean the stains when one constantly rolls in the mire.
2 Peter 1
4 Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature, after escaping from the corruption that is in the world because of evil desire. 5 [a]For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, virtue with knowledge, 6 knowledge with self-control, self-control with endurance, endurance with devotion,
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TaylorDonBarret
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Brother, please read the Councils of the Church. From Trent:
CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.
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James248
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The seal of initial justification may be there but the graces thereof depart. This is why one has confession of sin.
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TaylorDonBarret
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Without getting into a discussion about your apparent claim that it is impossible to preserve the graces of initial justification - how is this at all related to the discussion?
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mackbrislawn
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That means, if you quit confessing Jesus is Lord, the conclusion is you will not be saved.
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